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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 347

post #10381 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

2000 sq feet? That's huge! I know the PB13-ultra is powerful but I doubt it's powerful enough for a ball room.

Ha Ha! I didn't know what you were talking about until I looked more closely. I'm sure he meant 2000 cu ft. If not, then the solution to his problem would be more subwoofers.
post #10382 of 15678
Don't know if this is the right place to ask but here it goes.

My friend is offering me a Depth i for a similar price as two SB12-NSDs.

http://www.martinlogan.com/products/depthi

https://www.svsound.com/dual-subwoofers/dual-sb12-nsd

I had my eye on the SB12 for a little bit now intending to move to a sealed subwoofer from my Outlaw LFM+. Mainly because port noise really bothers me during some movies and I prefer the "musicality" of sealed subs, the Depth is supposed to have great impact and is said to blend very well with Martin Logan ESLs which I have.

I do probably 80% Movies / 20% Music, my current sub hits around 20hz and that is plenty for me. My other concern is that the Depth's cabinet doesn't vibrate at all which would be nice since I'm on a suspended floor, i'm not sure how inert the SB12 cabinet is.

My question is which one would be a better buy? Should I go with the one Depth or go for the two SB12s?
post #10383 of 15678
quick question on calibrating dual subs, do I calibrate each sub to 85db or do I calibrate each sub to 78db so that it reads 85db when they're both on?
post #10384 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB1111 View Post

Don't know if this is the right place to ask but here it goes.

My friend is offering me a Depth i for a similar price as two SB12-NSDs.

http://www.martinlogan.com/products/depthi

https://www.svsound.com/dual-subwoofers/dual-sb12-nsd

I had my eye on the SB12 for a little bit now intending to move to a sealed subwoofer from my Outlaw LFM+. Mainly because port noise really bothers me during some movies and I prefer the "musicality" of sealed subs, the Depth is supposed to have great impact and is said to blend very well with Martin Logan ESLs which I have.

I do probably 80% Movies / 20% Music, my current sub hits around 20hz and that is plenty for me. My other concern is that the Depth's cabinet doesn't vibrate at all which would be nice since I'm on a suspended floor, i'm not sure how inert the SB12 cabinet is.

My question is which one would be a better buy? Should I go with the one Depth or go for the two SB12s?

For a question like this it's probably better to start a new thread dedicated to your particular situation. This one is designed specifically to discuss SVS, meaning the answers you get might reflect that fact. wink.gif
post #10385 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckademic View Post

quick question on calibrating dual subs, do I calibrate each sub to 85db or do I calibrate each sub to 78db so that it reads 85db when they're both on?

If you use an SPL meter to set speaker level to 85db at the MLP, set the subs so both equal 85db at the MLP.
If each at 78db equals both at 85db, then that's the way to do it...
post #10386 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB1111 View Post

Don't know if this is the right place to ask but here it goes.

My friend is offering me a Depth i for a similar price as two SB12-NSDs.

As Jim said, you might get biased answers in this thread.

Now that the disclaimer is stated... Dual SB12s biggrin.gif First, because getting duals will be a better upgrade from a single sub than just swapping the sub. Second because while the Depth i is quite nice, it's still overpriced and overly complex. Each SB12 has more RMS and peak power than the Depth i. Also, as far as driver area is concerned, a Depth i has 3 x 8" drivers totaling about 150 sq in; each SB12 has a 12" driver with 113 sq in of area, so that with two you'll get more displacement (the SB12 driver will also have more excursion).

The SB12 may vibrate a bit more than the Depth i, but its construction is sturdy enough for it not being much of a problem. Anyway, the acoustic waves it creates will be enough to make the floor move if it has to wink.gif Blending with main speakers is seldom a problem for any sub crossed below 120 Hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckademic View Post

quick question on calibrating dual subs, do I calibrate each sub to 85db or do I calibrate each sub to 78db so that it reads 85db when they're both on?

As said before, if you're level-matching the two subs, aim for you target level with the two subs on. (However on most calibration routines, the target is 75 dB, not 85 dB). Also note that depending on the position of your subs, you may not get +6 dB from adding a second sub. You'll typically get +6 dB from co-located subs. If they're not co-located, you'll probably get anywhere from 3 to 6 dB in gain. This is ok: it means the sub excite different room modes and this means your frequency response and bass uniformity will improve a bit.
post #10387 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Dave,

Congrats on your purchase!

I do have a PB13 Ultra at home (actually two of them) and I'm also using a 4311. So, from the SVS it seems everything looks fine. However, when I ran Audyssey I had to adjust the subwoofer gain (volume) to -15 dB in order to match the 75 dB reading required for Audyssey. Did you manage to adjust the Ultra's gain/volume to match the 75 dB required by Audyssey?

Let's clarify this first and then we can continue validating settings.

Hi CR36124

Yes with the sub gain at -20 it was pretty much right on 75bB via the Audyssey reading
post #10388 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by dapala View Post

I had a hell of a time dialing in my sb12-nsd. Location was the biggest factor in my case, but I found a corner (spot I kind-of didn't want to put it) that gave really nice output. Then, still, I had to raise the gain two notches.

I ran Audessey over and over again after even slight adjustments in the positioning of any speaker, especially the sub. And I experimented with mic positions, like using two feet from each postion to just winging it. Turns out that the mic positions do make a big difference (in my case) with crossovers and even subwoofer output.

Now I have the system dialed in really good. And honestly the biggest challenge was the sub. Everything else sounded great, but output, nulls, and localization problems with the sub were hard to iron out. I still have problems with nulls, but no more localization and the bass shakes the glasses in my kitchen cabinet. And my sub is way, way, way wimpier then yours. Don't be afraid to turn it up.

Cheers mate, glad you got it sorted out, i ma sure i will too as there are a great bunch of people on here
post #10389 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

You say you set the sub's Eq to 16Hz. Did you plug one of the ports? Also, I have heard from guys running Audyssey that you have to turn up the sub a few dB. Don't be afraid of running the sub up to 6dB hotter. Just make sure it blends in with the other speakers and can't be localized. Enjoy the new sub!

Hi

Yes i have plugged one port and set the setting with in the PB13 to 16Hz
post #10390 of 15678
Hi dave -- can you tell us what are your crossover frequencies? Audyssey likes to set them quite low; you might get more out of your sub if you use 80 Hz (THX setting) if it's not done yet.
post #10391 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Hi Dave -

A few questions:
  • what was the original post-Audyssey AVR sub channel level
  • what speakers are you running for mains/center
  • what is the size setting and speaker/sub crossover for each channel
  • what is the AVR subwoofer mode setting
  • what is the AVR LPF for LFE setting


Thanks.

Hello Ed

The post sub channel level was -5
Speakers are Krix Neuphonix and center is Krix Epicentrix
All speakers set to small and cross over set to 80hz
AVR LPF is 120Hz

When you say subwoofer mode, what are you referring too?
post #10392 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

2000 sq feet? That's huge! I know the PB13-ultra is powerful but I doubt it's powerful enough for a ball room.

Sorry that is cubic feet the room is

5 Meter x 4 Meters with 9 ft ceilings
post #10393 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Audyssey has an weird habit of crossing very low. For example, it would set my crossover to 40 Hz with my Energy RC-70s -- those can go low but 40 Hz is a bit of a stretch if you want to experience great mid-bass on your sub. Revert any low crossover value to at least 80 Hz, raise the sub level a bit, and things should get better.

Hi neutro

Yeah i have set all speakers to 80hz and raised the level by 3 to 4 db and still not great
post #10394 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Hi dave -- can you tell us what are your crossover frequencies? Audyssey likes to set them quite low; you might get more out of your sub if you use 80 Hz (THX setting) if it's not done yet.

Hi , yep already done
post #10395 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesendor View Post

Hello Ed

The post sub channel level was -5
Speakers are Krix Neuphonix and center is Krix Epicentrix
All speakers set to small and cross over set to 80hz
AVR LPF is 120Hz

When you say subwoofer mode, what are you referring too?

Using your 4311 remote control, click on "Menu", then scroll and select "Manual Setup", next select "Speaker Setup", we are almost there......now select "Bass Settings", there you should be able to see "Subwoofer Mode" and it should be "LFE". If you have your Denon on "LFE+Main", just switched to "LFE". That way you are telling your AVR to send the bass signal only to your subwoofer.
post #10396 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckademic View Post

quick question on calibrating dual subs, do I calibrate each sub to 85db or do I calibrate each sub to 78db so that it reads 85db when they're both on?

I think 85 db will work if calibrate from 1 meter. I set my sub 75 db for one sub at the listening spot, 73 db for 2 sub at the listening spot. If you want to run the subs louder, turn it up in the avr menu after autocalibration. Once the subs are set at 72 db, run Audyseey or some other correction program. At this point I never touch the sub gains again. Running it to hot will make the bass seem out of balance and may cause more room resonance problems. Remember, the max spl of the sub is the same as well as the subs extension.
post #10397 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Using your 4311 remote control, click on "Menu", then scroll and select "Manual Setup", next select "Speaker Setup", we are almost there......now select "Bass Settings", there you should be able to see "Subwoofer Mode" and it should be "LFE". If you have your Denon on "LFE+Main", just switched to "LFE". That way you are telling your AVR to send the bass signal only to your subwoofer.

Hi yes it set on LFE already
post #10398 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post


As said before, if you're level-matching the two subs, aim for you target level with the two subs on. (However on most calibration routines, the target is 75 dB, not 85 dB). Also note that depending on the position of your subs, you may not get +6 dB from adding a second sub. You'll typically get +6 dB from co-located subs. If they're not co-located, you'll probably get anywhere from 3 to 6 dB in gain. This is ok: it means the sub excite different room modes and this means your frequency response and bass uniformity will improve a bit.

I get about 6-7db gain with both subs on, but not sure if having the subs too loud, not boomy, would mess with the over all SQ. I'm using the Disney's WOW disc and it said to calibrate speakers to 83db and set the sub to 85db.
post #10399 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesendor View Post

Hi neutro
Yeah i have set all speakers to 80hz and raised the level by 3 to 4 db and still not great

As far as I can see, your sub is setup just fine. I've seen damaged sub cables so if you can swap it with any other coax RCA cable just to test, it would be great. Else, it may be a position issue, or maybe a volume issue. Is there a position in the room where the bass feels much better than at your listening position? If so, the problem is most likely a sub location issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckademic View Post

I get about 6-7db gain with both subs on, but not sure if having the subs too loud, not boomy, would mess with the over all SQ. I'm using the Disney's WOW disc and it said to calibrate speakers to 83db and set the sub to 85db.

If your calibration routine tells you to use 85 dB then you're all set. Subs tend to sound boomy when the room resonates at a single frequency, leading to a peak in the frequency response. This is best dealt with using subwoofer EQing to reduce the volume of a narrow frequency band. There are multiple solutions to do that. But running your subs a bit hot overall is not much of an issue for sound quality.
post #10400 of 15678
I thought that I would just ask here on the SVS thread. The PB12-NSD had made my short list for my new theater room. Many others have suggested getting the PSA XV15 instead for more depth & sound for the same money. The only issue I'm having is with the physical size of these subs as they are just huge. I have a 2600 c/f room & I will be using a dual sub setup. I started looking at the sealed versions of these subs too. How much would I give up going to a pair of SB12-NSD subs? I was looking at ported options since this will only be used for movies, no music at all but I've always loved how smooth a sealed sub is. Thanks for any help in advance.
post #10401 of 15678
You'll be leaving lots of output at 20 Hz by going to the SB12 (but you'll get about the same output at 40 Hz and higher). If the problem is only footprint, you could use PC12-NSDs (cylinders). They have a 16.5" diameter, so they almost fit in the SB12's footprint. Of course they're a bit taller, but the black velvet finish means they'll just disappear in the room (unless you were planning on putting them in front of the screen :P)
post #10402 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

You'll be leaving lots of output at 20 Hz by going to the SB12 (but you'll get about the same output at 40 Hz and higher). If the problem is only footprint, you could use PC12-NSDs (cylinders). They have a 16.5" diameter, so they almost fit in the SB12's footprint. Of course they're a bit taller, but the black velvet finish means they'll just disappear in the room (unless you were planning on putting them in front of the screen :P)

I loved the thought of using the PC 12-NSD but they are too tall to fit below my screen & too big to get into the corner with my tower speakers. These are my only options of where to place them.
post #10403 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post

I loved the thought of using the PC 12-NSD but they are too tall to fit below my screen & too big to get into the corner with my tower speakers. These are my only options of where to place them.

How about placing the ported subs on their sides? Could you fit a long but short sub under your screen?
post #10404 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post

I loved the thought of using the PC 12-NSD but they are too tall to fit below my screen & too big to get into the corner with my tower speakers. These are my only options of where to place them.

You can develop your speakers and just behind every corner put both PC12-NSD.
post #10405 of 15678
While the easiest route would certainly be to go with smaller subs like the SB12, I remember having seen cyclinder subs such as the PC12-NSD laid down on their side. It's possible to use the packing foam as a cradle to keep the sub a few inches from the floor and prevent it from rolling. Ha, found the picture:



See other images in this post...

I can't say if it would work for Jim but it's an option. Not sure how big is the PSA XV15 but I thought it was even bigger than the PB12-NSD, being a down-firing 15" sub.
post #10406 of 15678
Interesting idea laying them on their side. I just called SVS & it was interesting talking to them. He suggested that if the PB12-NSD was too big for where I wanted to place it to go with dual PB1000's. After asking me how I listen to movies now, I've never had my volume louder then -15 on my Onkyo in my other room that the dual PB1000's would be more than enough to play that loud in my new room. That has been the hardest thing to judge as to what is loud enough bass for me. I'm sure that many people play it at reference levels but that's not me. I told him that at -15 dB on my volume it's more than loud enough to shake the room. So now I'm back to my original choice of thinking about the dual PB1000. He said it would go much lower & play louder then dual SB12-NSD below 40 hz. I'm not sure if that helps me or gives me more options. rolleyes.gif
post #10407 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post

Interesting idea laying them on their side. I just called SVS & it was interesting talking to them. He suggested that if the PB12-NSD was too big for where I wanted to place it to go with dual PB1000's. After asking me how I listen to movies now, I've never had my volume louder then -15 on my Onkyo in my other room that the dual PB1000's would be more than enough to play that loud in my new room. That has been the hardest thing to judge as to what is loud enough bass for me. I'm sure that many people play it at reference levels but that's not me. I told him that at -15 dB on my volume it's more than loud enough to shake the room. So now I'm back to my original choice of thinking about the dual PB1000. He said it would go much lower & play louder then dual SB12-NSD below 40 hz. I'm not sure if that helps me or gives me more options. rolleyes.gif

Just be sure that you will not be falling victim to "upgraditis" I have 2 PB-12NSDs and the fact that they are symmetrical in my room....they don look out of place at all
post #10408 of 15678
Well the nice thing about upgraditis and SVS is their 1-year trade-up policy.

Then again, it's also a danger. You end up upgrading just to see what you're missing. For what it's worth, I upgraded to dual PC12-Pluses from a single SB12-NSD. While the output from the dual cylinders is *totally* not in the same league -- they literally are able to somehow make my own couch punch me in the back -- it turns out that I seldom have the occasion to wake the monsters. I'd say during 90% of my usage (music and movies at moderate volumes), they sound mostly the same as the single SB12. Duals help a bit with bass uniformity, and the Pluses can deliver subsonics efficiently; but in overall, the SB12 is only lacking a few Hz in extension and a few (dozens...) dBs in peak output. Thus, I really think dual PB-1000s would be enough to get really interesting results at -15 dB from reference.

And if after a few months, you want to see what's like when furniture move, you'll have full credit toward two cylinders on their sides biggrin.gif
post #10409 of 15678
Okay, I've been playing around with speaker placement all afternoon to see what I could fit in the front corner. I could squeeze a PB1000 or PC12-NSD into each corner by pulling out my towers a little more. The PB12-NSD is too deep since there is a door there & I don't want the sub to stick out so that people walk into it. So dual PB1000's or dual PC12-NSD's in each of the front corners? My only other option that will fit in the corner is the PSA XS15. Any thoughts?
post #10410 of 15678
PSA subs are supposed to really kick ass. BUT, if only the sealed version (XS) will fit, then for HT purposes, the ported SVS subs win I think. (Would you put dual XS15 too?). Dual PC12-NSDs would of course be the "best", but at close to $600 more than the PB-1000s (not sure if there's a rebate for duals). If money is not a problem and they fit, they would provide more output than you'll ever need at -15 dB from reference, and you'll be able to enjoy higher levels when you get the chance to demo your HT room. If money is tight, dual PB-1000s would rock and provide more than adequate output at your normal listening levels.

I'm sure dual XS15 would sound great too, but for roughly the same price, I'd go with either the XV15 or the PC12-NSD. If the XV15 doesn't fit but the PC12 does, then the answer is obvious. According to data-bass, the XV15 will provide more output at almost every frequency than the PC12-NSD though. The XS15 was not tested by data-bass.
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