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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 364

post #10891 of 15831
Loudspeaker sensitivity is one of the most exaggerated specs in the industry. We measure sensitivity with a 2.83V input at 1 meter anechoic from 300 Hz to 3 kHz - and our data is accurate. This Audioholics article is a great primer on the subject: http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/loudspeaker-sensitivity. Gene at AH has come across many speakers which were rated 3-6 dB higher than their actual sensitivity when measured independently. So I don't recommend making buying decisions solely based on that criteria, especially not at playback levels typically falling into the -20 to -15 master volume range which is well within the dynamic limits of the amplifier section.
post #10892 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Car audio. The car audio guys get the cool stuff. tongue.gif

Oh ok gotcha now 10-4

I thought I could integrate that into my HT somehow.. wink.gif
post #10893 of 15831
These numbers can drive a potential buyer crazy. I wish there was a strict industry standard for reporting these specs. Anyway, I think I am leaning toward the SVS Ultra Bookshelves and Ultra Center. I feel that they are just a better bang for the buck, and If I am setting my crossover to 80hz, I don't need the extra low extension tower speakers offer. I think the ultras might be a better match with my pb-1000 and play as loud as I need with my 120wpc class D pioneer amp.
post #10894 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmanyon View Post

These numbers can drive a potential buyer crazy. I wish there was a strict industry standard for reporting these specs. Anyway, I think I am leaning toward the SVS Ultra Bookshelves and Ultra Center. I feel that they are just a better bang for the buck, and If I am setting my crossover to 80hz, I don't need the extra low extension tower speakers offer. I think the ultras might be a better match with my pb-1000 and play as loud as I need with my 120wpc class D pioneer amp.

That is plenty of power to drive the Ultra Center and Ultra Bookshelf.
post #10895 of 15831
Hey Ed.. Little off topic, but is there not 1 dB difference between the PB and PC ULTRA?
post #10896 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmanyon View Post

Anyway, I think I am leaning toward the SVS Ultra Bookshelves and Ultra Center. I feel that they are just a better bang for the buck, and If I am setting my crossover to 80hz, I don't need the extra low extension tower speakers offer.

We purchased our mains back in the 90's when THX was the new kid on the block. Today, with ID subwoofers like what SVS has to offer, mains such as what we have are sadly, relics of the past. As you posted above, with bass management (crossover) set to 80Hz, for Home Theater needs, there is no need for the mains of old.

(Bugler, sound taps for main speakers of old)

Even Klipsch's high end center channel is spec'd to "ONLY" 56Hz and their accompanying surrounds are spec'd to 72Hz. This tells me manufactures agree with your assessment of today's Home Theater market place.
post #10897 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Hey Ed.. Little off topic, but is there not 1 dB difference between the PB and PC ULTRA?

Hi Steve -

The two subwoofers share the same amp, driver and porting. The PB13U has a ~1 ft^3 larger enclosure volume, which gives it a slight advantage in LF system sensitivity, a bit deeper Fb (in each of the vented tunes) and slightly more max output. The delta is frequency dependent and isn't very large maybe 1.5 dB on average. It falls more into the 'measureable but not very audible' category and the two subs sound/perform very similarly in back-to-back comparisons. To customers who simply can't fit the PB13U in their allotted space, the PC13U is a great alternative with virtually the same performance and a much smaller footprint.
post #10898 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Hi Steve -

The two subwoofers share the same amp, driver and porting. The PB13U has a ~1 ft^3 larger enclosure volume, which gives it a slight advantage in LF system sensitivity, a bit deeper Fb (in each of the vented tunes) and slightly more max output. The delta is frequency dependent and isn't very large maybe 1.5 dB on average. It falls more into the 'measureable but not very audible' category and the two subs sound/perform very similarly in back-to-back comparisons. To customers who simply can't fit the PB13U in their allotted space, the PC13U is a great alternative with virtually the same performance and a much smaller footprint.

Thanks Ed.. Then I was rite. I know it’s not audible but I saw it stated they were the same and I thought I knew (now I”m sure) that was not the case. Appreciated smile.gif
post #10899 of 15831
Oh and my Apologies Ed, did not mean to offend. I actually recomended a pair of your svs book shelfs that are being closed out and was told they are a terrible choice due to the extremely low efficiency. It would be nice if there was a set standard for efficiency rating, taking measurements, and power ratings...that way everybody is on the same page and mis information is not spread.
post #10900 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Oh and my Apologies Ed, did not mean to offend. I actually recomended a pair of your svs book shelfs that are being closed out and was told they are a terrible choice due to the extremely low efficiency. It would be nice if there was a set standard for efficiency rating, taking measurements, and power ratings...that way everybody is on the same page and mis information is not spread.

No offense taken whatsoever. Your above statement is a perfect example of how accurately stating loudspeaker sensitivity can actually hurt a brand, because everyone assumes the sensitivity data from all brands is accurate (or measured in a standardized way) and that is often not the case. The truth is the SBS-02 sensitivity is on par with any other sealed 2-way bookshelf of that size and driver complement, and in the real world is very easy to drive with any AVR.
post #10901 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Oh and my Apologies Ed, did not mean to offend. I actually recomended a pair of your svs book shelfs that are being closed out and was told they are a terrible choice due to the extremely low efficiency. It would be nice if there was a set standard for efficiency rating, taking measurements, and power ratings...that way everybody is on the same page and mis information is not spread.

No offense taken whatsoever. Your above statement is a perfect example of how accurately stating loudspeaker sensitivity can actually hurt a brand, because everyone assumes the sensitivity data from all brands is accurate (or measured in a standardized way) and that is often not the case. The truth is the SBS-02 sensitivity is on par with any other sealed 2-way bookshelf of that size and driver complement, and in the real world is very easy to drive with any AVR.

Ed, how does that compare to the MBS-02 speakers I have? It was indicated, believe on your site, to be 83dB (assume 2.83v/1w/1m?).
post #10902 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Ed, how does that compare to the MBS-02 speakers I have? It was indicated, believe on your site, to be 83dB (assume 2.83v/1w/1m?).

Yes the MBS-02 has slightly higher sensitivity than the SBS-02, primarily due to its larger woofer (6.5" vs. 5.25"). Since we measure sensitivity from 300 Hz to 3 kHz, ported vs. sealed didn't have that much influence on the final spec. But with that said, the MBS-02 of course extends considerably deeper and has higher sensitivity in the bass region.
post #10903 of 15831
I need some advice. I'm interested in the SB12 NSD subwoofer. I live in an apartment. The room is just over 3 meters wide but it's 12 meters long and I'm sitting the short length in the room. It's open plan.

I realise the SB12 isn't an SPL king, but could I expect any 20 Hz output? I need a compact subwoofer, and musically it seems this sub is brilliant. What kind of output would I get if I had to get a second SB12? How would 2 SB12's compare to a single SB13-Ultra? Sorry for all the questions. I don't plan on watching movies at reference level as you can probably understand.
post #10904 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I need some advice. I'm interested in the SB12 NSD subwoofer. I live in an apartment. The room is just over 3 meters wide but it's 12 meters long and I'm sitting the short length in the room. It's open plan.

I realise the SB12 isn't an SPL king, but could I expect any 20 Hz output? I need a compact subwoofer, and musically it seems this sub is brilliant. What kind of output would I get if I had to get a second SB12? How would 2 SB12's compare to a single SB13-Ultra? Sorry for all the questions. I don't plan on watching movies at reference level as you can probably understand.

Yes, the SB12-NSD certainly has usable output at 20 Hz (reference Josh Ricci's review at Audioholics for CEA-2010 data). A co-located pair of them are close (but won't exceed) a single SB13-Ultra in terms of max output. The SB13-Ultra extends deeper though.
post #10905 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen 
Yes, the SB12-NSD certainly has usable output at 20 Hz (reference Josh Ricci's review at Audioholics for CEA-2010 data). A co-located pair of them are close (but won't exceed) a single SB13-Ultra in terms of max output. The SB13-Ultra extends deeper though.

Thanks Ed. I don't have many placement options, so I would imagine the subs would either flank the left/right main speakers or the only other option would be to place it on either side of the couch. Do you think if I kept my volume levels to more sane level, like -15 to -20 from reference that a second SB12 would contribute to perceiving deeper low-end, since a second sub is adding more SPL down low, or would it only be noticed more if the SPL's were greater, like -10 or higher? I most likely will calibrate the levels flat, so no boosting on my end. I prefer a cleaner low-end, especially for music. Thanks for answering my questions.
post #10906 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I need some advice. I'm interested in the SB12 NSD subwoofer. I live in an apartment. The room is just over 3 meters wide but it's 12 meters long and I'm sitting the short length in the room. It's open plan.

I realise the SB12 isn't an SPL king, but could I expect any 20 Hz output? I need a compact subwoofer, and musically it seems this sub is brilliant. What kind of output would I get if I had to get a second SB12? How would 2 SB12's compare to a single SB13-Ultra? Sorry for all the questions. I don't plan on watching movies at reference level as you can probably understand.

If you are limited on space, have you looked at the cylinder subs? It takes up only 16.5" (not sure what that would be in metric) of floor space.
post #10907 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

If you are limited on space, have you looked at the cylinder subs? It takes up only 16.5" (not sure what that would be in metric) of floor space.

I used to have an SVS cylinder, and they do take much less floor space than a comparable box model, and the cylinders do sound great also biggrin.gif
post #10908 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Thanks Ed. I don't have many placement options, so I would imagine the subs would either flank the left/right main speakers or the only other option would be to place it on either side of the couch. Do you think if I kept my volume levels to more sane level, like -15 to -20 from reference that a second SB12 would contribute to perceiving deeper low-end, since a second sub is adding more SPL down low, or would it only be noticed more if the SPL's were greater, like -10 or higher? I most likely will calibrate the levels flat, so no boosting on my end. I prefer a cleaner low-end, especially for music. Thanks for answering my questions.

A pair of strategically located SB12-NSD will provide tight, clean and accurate bass which will enhance both music and movies, even at your preferred moderate playback level. A pair of subs should not be calibrated any hotter than a single sub. The advantage of dual subs is a denser modal field for smoother bass at more listening positions, and additional headroom (which is not the same as running the subs hotter) for hitting bass transients with less dynamic compression. Once an AV enthusiast hears properly set-up duals, typically his only regret is not trying them sooner.
post #10909 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

A pair of strategically located SB12-NSD will provide tight, clean and accurate bass which will enhance both music and movies, even at your preferred moderate playback level. A pair of subs should not be calibrated any hotter than a single sub. The advantage of dual subs is a denser modal field for smoother bass at more listening positions, and additional headroom (which is not the same as running the subs hotter) for hitting bass transients with less dynamic compression. Once an AV enthusiast hears properly set-up duals, typically his only regret is not trying them sooner.

Herr Heinrich! Wie Gehts?? smile.gif

Please DO listen to Ed. In a room the size of yours, a pair of SB-12's would no doubt work a treat!

Something VERY cool happens when you run a PAIR of Subs, and as Ed says...you DO in fact get more "Sweet Spots" in which to listen, and I might go out on a limb
and say that particularly with a Music oriented system...nice things happen to Soundstage size as well. It might be worth interjecting my unqualified opinion, and say that Boundary Gain effects in your room can extend the LF capabilities of your Subs a bit. Where the Sub is naturally beginning to drift off. at the low end...the room is boosting back up a bit. This can give you a bit deeper Bass than the Spec might suggest.

Setting levels with a Pair of Subs is EZ! Using Test Signals, set both Subs so their combined output is the same as the mains.

Example: Mains at 75db reference:

Set each sub a bit cold (maybe 72), and their combined output should be around 75. If you need to add/subtract a couple db from the subs to match the mains...adjust each sub by like amounts ie: Need to Raise/Lower by 2db? Add subtract 1 (One) db from each sub.

Doing it by Ear has never been productive for me....YMMV. I recommend a Meter! smile.gif

(Check the tone controls of your next rental car.. ) Guessing at it "is the fastest way I can think of to get a "Box Store" result. There will never be any consistency, but......TRUST that real meaurements don't lie.





Have Fun!

CV
Edited by CV580DRVR - 7/2/13 at 12:25pm
post #10910 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen 
A pair of strategically located SB12-NSD will provide tight, clean and accurate bass which will enhance both music and movies, even at your preferred moderate playback level. A pair of subs should not be calibrated any hotter than a single sub. The advantage of dual subs is a denser modal field for smoother bass at more listening positions, and additional headroom (which is not the same as running the subs hotter) for hitting bass transients with less dynamic compression. Once an AV enthusiast hears properly set-up duals, typically his only regret is not trying them sooner.

Thanks Ed! Makes sense. I'm close to pulling the trigger. Will send you an email soon.
post #10911 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by CV580DRVR 
Something VERY cool happens when you run a PAIR of Subs, and as Ed says...you DO in fact get more "Sweet Spots" in which to listen, and I might go out on a limb
and say that particularly with a Music oriented system...nice things happen to Soundstage size as well.

I read up the advantages of a dual sub set up but in my space, since I only have one 2 seater couch I suppose in terms of smoothness, it's probably not going to be too important. The main thing for me is that dual subs can dig deeper and louder... plus each of these subs are not too heavy and can be hidden. The SB13 Ultra is very heavy in comparison.
post #10912 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Once an AV enthusiast hears properly set-up duals, typically his only regret is not trying them sooner.

Sounds like what I have to say about triples. tongue.gif
post #10913 of 15831
I used to run a 20-39 pci, and recently switched to dual SB12 biggrin.gif

Now I have way more sweet spots compared to the one and only I used to have.. and I can hide those SB12 nicely, wasn't the case with the cylinder obviously. But it sold quick for asking price once the guy heard it for 2 minutes.. love SVS subs smile.gif
post #10914 of 15831
Hey guys.
Decided that I want a an svs sub to go with my klipsch rf-62 II.
1.First i had set my eyes on the Klipsch Rw-12d, but since its hard to find here in europe Im going with the Svs pb-1000. How does it compare to the 12d with its much largee 12 cone?
2.Also would there be that much a big difference to go to the PB12-NSD? Basically 499 vs 749 euros. Is that 249 that much of a noticeable difference.
3.My listening area below. Would a small space warrant the larger sub?


Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II
post #10915 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Hey guys.
Decided that I want a an svs sub to go with my klipsch rf-62 II.
1.First i had set my eyes on the Klipsch Rw-12d, but since its hard to find here in europe Im going with the Svs pb-1000. How does it compare to the 12d with its much largee 12 cone?
2.Also would there be that much a big difference to go to the PB12-NSD? Basically 499 vs 749 euros. Is that 249 that much of a noticeable difference.
3.My listening area below. Would a small space warrant the larger sub?


Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II

The 12D should go louder but not in the lower frequencies. It (12D) has a tune of 24 Hz. Going loud in the higher frequencies is kind of a common thing with subs but having authority down low is another. The PB has a +-3 at 19 Hz, much better than 24. The 12D just can’t compete down low against the PB-1000.. it really makes a difference.. the SQ will be better with the PB also. Oh! yes it will go plenty loud up higher.

Could be the 12NSD is warranted? What size is your room and is it open to any other rooms?
post #10916 of 15831
Just a question as far as sub EQ goes. Is there any point in using a specialised EQ product, like Antimode if you're using Audyssey XT32? Or does XT32 make all those products redundant? I know SVS had a standalone EQ product, I'm just wondering if that would be needed if you have a receiver with XT32. For me, I only have one 2 seater couch.
post #10917 of 15831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Just a question as far as sub EQ goes. Is there any point in using a specialised EQ product, like Antimode if you're using Audyssey XT32? Or does XT32 make all those products redundant? I know SVS had a standalone EQ product, I'm just wondering if that would be needed if you have a receiver with XT32. For me, I only have one 2 seater couch.

The previous stand-alone SVS EQ is pretty much XT32 now, same number of filters afaik
post #10918 of 15831
Heinrich...

Try starting with the built-in SVS EQ. Unless you've got some bad acoustic problems, it can be really effective at knocking down a bad peak.

TWO subs works it's magic in part by mitigating a lot of the issues that create BIG FR issues to begin with.

Even though you only have a small couch, (I do too) there's more at play. Ed isn't pulling your chain when he talks about pairing subs.

(I have a pair of SB-13's, and I don't care WHERE you go in this house...the bass is completely uniform...no peaks/nulls. )

Thanks Ed! smile.gifsmile.gif

FWIW: This is a Music House. (Not HT). I/We move around in here a lot, and I don't want bass that clobbers my skull in one spot, and then vanishes while
I wash dishes for 1/2 hour. Uniformity is key, and Ed got us there.

It's even awesome in the Shower!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed Rocks.

All the best,

CV
post #10919 of 15831
Quote:
Ed Rocks.

I was at the end of my rope with demoing speakers until he suggested speakers I was biased against. So I did decide to try them out (as Ed suggested) and was floored!.. they were just what I was looking for. Been with those speakers for years now and have no desire to experiment anymore. I could never say that about subs though. wink.gif
Edited by steve nn - 7/4/13 at 10:29pm
post #10920 of 15831
Guys,
What's the recommended settings in SB13plus to handle only 40Hz and above frequencies and cut 40Hz below?
I would want to improve my midbass(the one that punches your chest, hahaha) biggrin.gif
Thanks smile.gif
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