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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 385

post #11521 of 15660
Quote:
But this trick makes the sound at frequencies 50hz - 120hz are fainter and earthquake effect you gain, you lose on bass punch.

An example of Hoffman's Iron Law. You traded SPL with depth. Shows you can't cheat physics.
post #11522 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

An example of Hoffman's Iron Law. You traded SPL with depth. Shows you can't cheat physics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

An example of Hoffman's Iron Law. You traded SPL with depth. Shows you can't cheat physics.

Not all theories are given in all cases.

I challenge you to do the test yourself with some PB12 +, PC12 +, PC13/PB13 (and it is not something I invented, is an effect that Audyssey does with these subs, playing with the tune of the same capabilities and Audyssey) simplenete creates a hump in the frequency response boosting lower frequencies.
post #11523 of 15660
Quote:
I challenge you to do the test yourself with some PB12 +, PC12 +, PC13/PB13 (and it is not something I invented, is an effect that Audyssey does with these subs, playing with the tune of the same capabilities and Audyssey) simplenete creates a hump in the frequency response boosting lower frequencies.

In the past when lowering the tune we always had to adjust the SW setting a dB or two.
post #11524 of 15660
Quote:
I challenge you to do the test yourself with some PB12 +, PC12 +, PC13/PB13 (and it is not something I invented, is an effect that Audyssey does with these subs, playing with the tune of the same capabilities and Audyssey) simplenete creates a hump in the frequency response boosting lower frequencies.

Who says audyssey doesn't boost bottom octaves?? I don't, at least.
post #11525 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Who says audyssey doesn't boost bottom octaves?? I don't, at least.

I think you and I have misunderstood words. First I.

rolleyes.gif
post #11526 of 15660
Hello All,

I'm thinking of replacing a Polk DSW Pro 500 10" sub with a more powerful SVS. I was considering the PB12-NSD, but that ported box is a awfully big for our furniture arrangement. The PC12-NSD would work well for us and fit in a corner. Then I started wondering if dual SB-1000's would be better. So much of what I read in these forums favors dual subs, but I'm not sure it would be worth the extra money. The room isn't that big, 15 x 20 x 9.

Thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,
David
post #11527 of 15660
Quote:
I think you and I have misunderstood words. First I.

I don't know what your point is but Audyssey does try and shoot for a house curve; hence the bottom two octaves are found raised in FR measurement. The problem with Audyssey is that it goes for the house curve disregarding the capability of the sub.
post #11528 of 15660
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVjiOrjQ6oM

SVS SB13-Ultra grill fail! Bad idea to remove the magnets.

eek.gif
post #11529 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by david3772 View Post

The PC12-NSD would work well for us and fit in a corner. Then I started wondering if dual SB-1000's would be better. So much of what I read in these forums favors dual subs, but I'm not sure it would be worth the extra money. The room isn't that big, 15 x 20 x 9.

As the owner of both a single PC12-NSD (which you can get as a Outlet Special from SVS for $649) and dual SB-1000 (which I bought for $325 each through Audiogon but you can get a piano white Outlet Special from SVS for $549), I would recommend the former for movies, where you will enjoy the lower frequency extension of the ported, and the latter for music, where you'll enjoy the precise and even bass of the sealed subs.

Since you didn't mention anything about your intended use, space, other equipment such as speakers or amps, I trust you will be reading this and many other threads to learn about placement, sound treatments, risers, connections, crossovers, EQ and all the other little details which go into getting good performance out of your subs and useful answers from your questions and better recommendations for single or dual ported or sealed SVS subs.
Edited by AJCxZ0 - 8/24/13 at 2:07pm
post #11530 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJCxZ0 View Post

As the owner of both a single PC12-NSD (which you can get as a Outlet Special from SVS for $649) and dual SB-1000 (which I bought for $325 each through Audiogon but you can get a piano white Outlet Special from SVS for $549), I would recommend the former for movies, where you will enjoy the lower frequency extension of the ported, and the latter for music, where you'll enjoy the precise and even bass of the sealed subs.

Since you didn't mention anything about your intended use, space, other equipment such as speakers or amps, I trust you will be reading this and many other threads to learn about placement, sound treatments, risers, connections, crossovers, EQ and all the other little details which go into getting good performance out of your subs and useful answers from your questions and better recommendations for single or dual ported or sealed SVS subs.

Thank you for the response, AJXxZ0. I was a little light on the details of my setup, I apologize. We use our equipment for movies mostly, so I appreciate your opinion that the PC12 is the better option for home theater. Given that you have both (all three) of the subs I asked about, I give your opinion a lot of weight! If it matters, I am using B&W CDM1's and a CC6 for my fronts and Definitive ProCinema 1000's for my surrounds along with the Polk sub. They are powered by an old (2001) Sony 100w avr that I plan to replace with a new Denon soon.

David
post #11531 of 15660
Hi.

So basically started wanting the PC-12 NSD and now I'm going for the PC-12 Plus, where here in europe its like 1400 euro. The PC 13 ultra, is about 1800 euros.
My question is: is the difference going from the plus to the ultra that dramatic?
post #11532 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Hi.

So basically started wanting the PC-12 NSD and now I'm going for the PC-12 Plus, where here in europe its like 1400 euro. The PC 13 ultra, is about 1800 euros.
My question is: is the difference going from the plus to the ultra that dramatic?

Hello.

How big is your room? What do you listen volume levels?

The NSD to Plus worth the difference, this is approximately a 6 dB stronger.
From the Ultra Plus there is only 3db difference (Ultra is a good candidate if you want to go slightly stronger than the Plus).

I had a PC13-Ultra and now I have a PB12 + dsp (estimate that between them there is a difference of 1.5 db, 2db) as the PC13 is a bit smaller than his brother PB13 and this subtracts 1.5 versus production db PB13. (this makes the PB12 + dsp this very close to his older brother but even the PB13 and PC13) Eventually sold the PC13 and stayed with the PB12 +, since the differences were minimal. (but that's another story and I mention as an anecdote for what it's help when someone wants to buy a subwoofer from SVS).
post #11533 of 15660
I'm still undecided after a week of deciding what I should do. I have the 20-39 PCi discontinued sub, and after getting my Klipsch RF-7s/RC-64 speakers, I feel like my sub is holding me back a bit. I only have 3 real options to place the sub. In 2 corners behind the sofa, or right behind the middle listening position. I currently have it behind the middle listening position but tried a corner the other night and didn't like the results. I did not re-run Audyssey, but I did try it with it off. Some parts of the room were incredibly bassy, others were dead. There's a doorway that leads into a rather large room right next to my entertainment room. I have a friend that wants to buy my 20-39 PCi sub so he can dual his (he has same sub), so I'm debating on upgrading.

Here's a crappy picture of what my room looks like. It is only 10x14 feet, there is no room for a sub in the front part of the room.


My options:
1) Keep current sub.
2) Get 1 PC12-Plus and place it behind the center listening position.
3) Get 2 PC12-NSDs and place them in the 2 corners behind my sofa.

Also, does using a Y adapter before connecting the cable to the sub matter? I hear so many people claiming it does, but the SVS manual says it doesn't make any difference. I'd also like to know when using two subs do you split the connection before going to the subs, or daisy chain the subs. Thanks.
Edited by Tyrindor - 8/24/13 at 6:32pm
post #11534 of 15660
I'd go for dual subs since u r having room response issues.
And for hooking the two subs it doesn't matter if you hse the y adapter or daisy chain. Since both subs r in the back of the room I think it would be easier to daisy chain them.
post #11535 of 15660
OK... I'm confused. I'm still trying to dial in my subs, and have hit a brick wall (I don't understand what I am seeing). After level matching my subs (they are equal, since they are symmetrically placed, flanking my front channel), I ran Audyssey to set the channel levels. I then ran the audio calibration tones on the Disney WOW blu-ray, as a sanity check (and I had heard that Audyssey sometimes sets the LFE low). With the pink noise running, I raised the MV of the AVR until I got an SPL of 70dB from the satellites. Since the documentation simply says to adjust the LFE to 3dB greater than the satellites, I expected the LFE tone to also be about 70dB... what I got was an SPL of 80dB...?!? I know that reference for the satellites is defined as 105dB, whereas the LFE is 115dB, but the LFE channel is encoded 10dB lower than the satellites to allow for the increased bandwidth (the AVR then "gooses" the LFE by 10dB prior to sending it out to the sub). I double-checked with another calibration disc (SD DVE), one with a known problem with the LFE tone (it is 10dB too hot, as it does not account for the 10dB "goose"). There, I expected the 10dB discrepancy for a flat calibration, which is what I got. My question is, does the Disney disc have the same problem (doubtful), or am I missing something (much more likely)? Thanks!
post #11536 of 15660
Another upgrade question, two sb12's or one sb13 ultra???
post #11537 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by david3772 View Post

I am using B&W CDM1's and a CC6 for my fronts and Definitive ProCinema 1000's for my surrounds along with the Polk sub. They are powered by an old (2001) Sony 100w avr that I plan to replace with a new Denon soon.

Since these are all powered subs, all you need from your receiver is a clean pre-amp output, which I presume you have for your Polk. The receiver should not be a limiting factor in the quality of your bass, but your B&W speakers deserve a better sub.

You didn't mention if your 2700 cu.ft. space was closed or what is in the space, your preferred listening volume or your budget (though we might guess from the subs you mentioned). With that information you should certainly contact SVS, who will give you recommendations for single or dual ported subs which provide the right balance of frequency extension (how low) and output (how loud). Since you will almost certainly be looking for a ported sub, you might want to consider the PB-1000 as a cheaper alternative to the PC/B12-NSD.

As you have by now read many times in the thread, the tough choice is how much extra sub to buy to stave off upgraditis. You can end up thinking you can't live with less than quad PC13-Ultras and end up building you own subs for your basement theater.

SVS also has the Merlin tool, but use that in addition to contacting SVS for advice.
post #11538 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post

I'm still undecided after a week of deciding what I should do. I have the 20-39 PCi discontinued sub, and after getting my Klipsch RF-7s/RC-64 speakers, I feel like my sub is holding me back a bit. I only have 3 real options to place the sub. In 2 corners behind the sofa, or right behind the middle listening position. I currently have it behind the middle listening position but tried a corner the other night and didn't like the results. I did not re-run Audyssey, but I did try it with it off. Some parts of the room were incredibly bassy, others were dead. There's a doorway that leads into a rather large room right next to my entertainment room. I have a friend that wants to buy my 20-39 PCi sub so he can dual his (he has same sub), so I'm debating on upgrading.

Here's a crappy picture of what my room looks like. It is only 10x14 feet, there is no room for a sub in the front part of the room.


My options:
1) Keep current sub.
2) Get 1 PC12-Plus and place it behind the center listening position.
3) Get 2 PC12-NSDs and place them in the 2 corners behind my sofa.

Also, does using a Y adapter before connecting the cable to the sub matter? I hear so many people claiming it does, but the SVS manual says it doesn't make any difference. I'd also like to know when using two subs do you split the connection before going to the subs, or daisy chain the subs. Thanks.


I have the exact same room except bigger(20Lx15W)... I currently have 3 subs to flatten the respnse. 2 are placed on each side of the couch and the 3rd is place directly across the room from the doorway. Imo pick up a pair of PC-12NSD's, keep the 20-39 , and place them as mentioned. This setup should fill your entire room with even bass except there might be one small cancellation point directly in the middle of the room. Not much can be done about that.
post #11539 of 15660
I sure am tempted to go with a PB12+ for my small bedroom to replace my SB12 NSD.
post #11540 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post

I sure am tempted to go with a PB12+ for my small bedroom to replace my SB12 NSD.

I would go SB13
post #11541 of 15660
Wow. Away from one day and a full page of posts I wanted to reply to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Just a quick update. My PC12+ did come in yesterday (despite what FedEx told me on the phone- that is was on a barge).

I'm glad you got it before the weekend! Did you have an occasion to watch a whole movie?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 06GTOguy View Post

So I have my pb12+ plugged into a rocketfish hts120, which is plugged into a voltage regulator, which is plugged into my wall outlet.

Those are interesting results and I can't really add anything. However just a word of caution: voltage regulators sometimes can limit the peak power going through the system. SVS recommends a whole-house surge protector and nothing else between the sub and outlet. However I wonder if it's possible to reach peak power with a Plus using a 15A circuit? What about an Ultra? Would that require a 20A circuit?

Also I'm not sure if SVS subs are amp-limited or driver-limited. I'd guess they're pretty much well-matched, i.e. peak amp power is very close to providing the driver's Xmax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

In the past when lowering the tune we always had to adjust the SW setting a dB or two.

Well 16 Hz tune does remove a few dBs of output at 20 Hz for the same gain setting, so that makes sense. However I'm not sure where Audyssey stops making corrections. Does it EQ below 20 Hz? I'd doubt it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david3772 View Post

I was considering the PB12-NSD, but that ported box is a awfully big for our furniture arrangement. The PC12-NSD would work well for us and fit in a corner. Then I started wondering if dual SB-1000's would be better. So much of what I read in these forums favors dual subs, but I'm not sure it would be worth the extra money. The room isn't that big, 15 x 20 x 9.

Go for a ported sub if the size of those are acceptable. As advised previously, this will provide you more low-end output, which is super nice for home theater applications. You could also consider dual PB-1000s if you want to experiment with dual subs. This will provide you more output than a single PC12-NSD, but it will also cost more by about $300. That being said, the PC12-NSD is awesome by itself and I for one love the cylinder form factor. Lighter, easy to move around (they can be rolled on their base), and they don't look like your average sub for sure biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVjiOrjQ6oM

SVS SB13-Ultra grill fail! Bad idea to remove the magnets.

Wow. It's the same problem as with the SB12-NSD and PB12-NSD. Even though the pegs look different. I really hope SVS have found a fix for this. However in that case it didn't really cause any rattling that I could hear. Note: if your sub is affected, SVS will simply replace it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Hi.
So basically started wanting the PC-12 NSD and now I'm going for the PC-12 Plus, where here in europe its like 1400 euro. The PC 13 ultra, is about 1800 euros.
My question is: is the difference going from the plus to the ultra that dramatic?

As Lecter said, the jump from NSD to Plus is more dramatic, as it should. Apart from much more output, it also comes with an amp with digital controls, variable tuning, XLR inputs, etc. So it's not just power. The Ultra is further beefed up, but bass being what it is, gaining output at very low frequencies is exponentially more difficult and thus expensive. If you're pretty sure you won't hit the limits of a Plus, there is probably little advantage of going to an Ultra, except maybe to prevent upgraditis biggrin.gif.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post

I'm still undecided after a week of deciding what I should do.

Can you squeeze one sub on your front stage? I'm just saying this because it would provide one more position to try, not necessarily because it would be the best.
Quote:
My options:
1) Keep current sub.
2) Get 1 PC12-Plus and place it behind the center listening position.
3) Get 2 PC12-NSDs and place them in the 2 corners behind my sofa.

The advantage of the Plus would be added output and variable tuning (you could try 16 Hz). Two PC12-NSDs would have more output and may help with bass response across the room as noted, for just a bit more money. I think I'd try the duals if I were you, but it depends on where you put your priorities.

I had the same dilemma and ended up buying dual Pluses. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Also, does using a Y adapter before connecting the cable to the sub matter?

No -- using the Y adapter to use the two inputs of the subs simply boost your signal to the sub by 3 dB, but doesn't affect its performances or max output.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

OK... I'm confused. I'm still trying to dial in my subs, and have hit a brick wall (I don't understand what I am seeing).

It really depends on your source. I don't know about that Disney DVD, but on most AVRs, the calibration test tones are meant to be calibrated at 75 dBs, sub included. It is true that the LFE are output with a 10 dB gain, so whether you should calibrate the sub at 70, 75, 80 or 85 dB depends on the calibration method you use. Don't fret too much about this too. If it sounds good... who cares if you run your sub a tad hot? tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by movies2090 View Post

Another upgrade question, two sb12's or one sb13 ultra???

Really depends if you want to experiment with duals (and smoother frequency response and bass distribution across the room), or if you need the Ultra's sheer power and the features that comes with the Sledge ST-1000D amp. I think the SB13 has more output than dual SB12 everywhere, but not by much. This would have to be confirmed by more knowledgeable people.
post #11542 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would go SB13

Why is that?
post #11543 of 15660
Can anyone recommend some good speaker stands I can purchase on amazon for the ultra bookshelf speakers
post #11544 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post

I'm still undecided after a week of deciding what I should do. I have the 20-39 PCi discontinued sub, and after getting my Klipsch RF-7s/RC-64 speakers, I feel like my sub is holding me back a bit. I only have 3 real options to place the sub. In 2 corners behind the sofa, or right behind the middle listening position. I currently have it behind the middle listening position but tried a corner the other night and didn't like the results. I did not re-run Audyssey, but I did try it with it off. Some parts of the room were incredibly bassy, others were dead. There's a doorway that leads into a rather large room right next to my entertainment room. I have a friend that wants to buy my 20-39 PCi sub so he can dual his (he has same sub), so I'm debating on upgrading.

Here's a crappy picture of what my room looks like. It is only 10x14 feet, there is no room for a sub in the front part of the room.

If you have sufficient flexibility with placement then duals are very often going to be the better option. Key words being "sufficient flexibility" though; just dropping a pair of subs anywhere in your room won't necessarily be a good choice. It can actually make the situation worse, and could exacerbate the 'parts of the room were incredibly bassy, others were dead' problem.

Regardless of what you opt to do tuning and Audyssey will be your friends, especially in such a small room. It's actually easier to setup subwoofers in a larger space than a smaller one.
post #11545 of 15660
Quote:
It's actually easier to setup subwoofers in a larger space than a smaller one.

+1
post #11546 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by movies2090 View Post

Can anyone recommend some good speaker stands I can purchase on amazon for the ultra bookshelf speakers

I like the stands from this company....nice and sturdy with a cast iron base.

http://www.vtimanufacturing.com/Speaker%20Stands.htm


This is the model I have (I have some fairly heavy monitors; about 35 - 40 lbs each)

http://www.vtimanufacturing.com/DF%20Series.htm

A friend of mine accidentally bumped into one of the speakers hard enough to knock the grill off but it didn't tip over (phew!).
post #11547 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

It really depends on your source. I don't know about that Disney DVD, but on most AVRs, the calibration test tones are meant to be calibrated at 75 dBs, sub included. It is true that the LFE are output with a 10 dB gain, so whether you should calibrate the sub at 70, 75, 80 or 85 dB depends on the calibration method you use. Don't fret too much about this too. If it sounds good... who cares if you run your sub a tad hot? tongue.gif

Thanks, Neutro! I will re-verify the levels using the AVR's built in tones just to be on the safe side, and adjust +3dB from that. It is true that I can be a bit paranoid where my babies are concerned... or so I'm told....wink.gif
post #11548 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post

Why is that?

Because in a small sealed room the sealed sub will most likely have a flatter response with deeper extension.
post #11549 of 15660
Quote:
Well 16 Hz tune does remove a few dBs of output at 20 Hz for the same gain setting, so that makes sense. However I'm not sure where Audyssey stops making corrections. Does it EQ below 20 Hz? I'd doubt it.

I was just referring to bumping up the trim a dB or two without running Audyssey. This was back in the day when Audyssey wasn’t on the scene yet. To be honest with you I do a calibration for a reality check only.. with having plenty of room under 0 trim to adjust up or down depending on source material, mood and MV.
post #11550 of 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJCxZ0 View Post

Since these are all powered subs, all you need from your receiver is a clean pre-amp output, which I presume you have for your Polk. The receiver should not be a limiting factor in the quality of your bass, but your B&W speakers deserve a better sub.

You didn't mention if your 2700 cu.ft. space was closed or what is in the space, your preferred listening volume or your budget (though we might guess from the subs you mentioned). With that information you should certainly contact SVS, who will give you recommendations for single or dual ported subs which provide the right balance of frequency extension (how low) and output (how loud). Since you will almost certainly be looking for a ported sub, you might want to consider the PB-1000 as a cheaper alternative to the PC/B12-NSD.

As you have by now read many times in the thread, the tough choice is how much extra sub to buy to stave off upgraditis. You can end up thinking you can't live with less than quad PC13-Ultras and end up building you own subs for your basement theater.

SVS also has the Merlin tool, but use that in addition to contacting SVS for advice.

Thanks again, AJC. Pre-amp output should be okay, and in any event will be cleaned up by a new Denon avr. The room hopefully doesn't compromise the sound too much. The wall with our tv and mains is a solid 15' wall, as is the 20' on the left. The 20' wall on the right has a 4' opening at nearly the farthest point from the tv wall. The opening is behind the main seating position, and has french doors that we close for movies. The 15' wall opposite the tv/main speaker wall has a 6' opening into the next room, but that opening is behind all seating positions.

Merlin suggested options range from a $1,200 PC12-Plus to a $1,600 SB13-Ultra, all of which are more than I want to spend. I did look at the PB-1000. Maybe I'm selling it short, but I wasn't sure that its 10" 300w output was a sufficient step up from my current Polk sub's 10" 200w.

David
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