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post #11701 of 15651
Hey guys.

Considering I live in an appartment, does it even matter if the cone is pointing down like on the PC12-Plus? With pb12-plus it obviously points forward...does that make any difference.

As for the NSD vs Plus version of the PC, is the benefit of the Plus only heard at high levels? When i had klipsch quintets with the klipsch sub-10 i thougg the sub was good. But now that I have a Klipsch Rf-62 II based system with an rc-62 II center and rs-52 II for rear, would an NSD do it justice?
post #11702 of 15651
Quote:
Considering I live in an appartment, does it even matter if the cone is pointing down like on the PC12-Plus? With pb12-plus it obviously points forward...does that make any difference.

Difference in what sense?
Quote:
As for the NSD vs Plus version of the PC, is the benefit of the Plus only heard at high levels? When i had klipsch quintets with the klipsch sub-10 i thougg the sub was good. But now that I have a Klipsch Rf-62 II based system with an rc-62 II center and rs-52 II for rear, would an NSD do it justice?

It is not about hearing difference at high or low levels. It's more about headroom. The more the headroom; the more a sub can easily and cleanly playback transients in a movie e.g. car crashes, train wrecks, plane crashes, explosions. This is regardless of where the master volume is, but surely there is a limit. Plus version would be more happy both with movies and music. NSD may struggle at high volumes in movies with your speakers but will be happy with music.

Another thing to remember is that Klipsch are ridiculously efficient speakers. They require a few watts to hit the reference. You need a sub that can keep up with them in movies. Music is no issue. But 20dB peaks in movies at high volumes will cause NSD to struggle to keep up with the rest of the speakers keeping every other thing constant and without factoring in the room gain.

Plus it is.
post #11703 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Difference in what sense?
It is not about hearing difference at high or low levels. It's more about headroom. The more the headroom; the more a sub can easily and cleanly playback transients in a movie e.g. car crashes, train wrecks, plane crashes, explosions. This is regardless of where the master volume is, but surely there is a limit. Plus version would be more happy both with movies and music. NSD may struggle at high volumes in movies with your speakers but will be happy with music.

Another thing to remember is that Klipsch are ridiculously efficient speakers. They require a few watts to hit the reference. You need a sub that can keep up with them in movies. Music is no issue. But 20dB peaks in movies at high volumes will cause NSD to struggle to keep up with the rest of the speakers keeping every other thing constant and without factoring in the room gain.

Plus it is.

Thanks for your reply. Plus it is in that case.

But regarding the PC12-PLUS vs the PB12-PLUS, I was thinking because the PC12's a downfiring cone, it will be more obvious to the neighbours below. While the PB has a front firing cone, the waves will be push in front and not below.
post #11704 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Thanks for your reply. Plus it is in that case.

But regarding the PC12-PLUS vs the PB12-PLUS, I was thinking because the PC12's a downfiring cone, it will be more obvious to the neighbours below. While the PB has a front firing cone, the waves will be push in front and not below.

I had a PC13. Now I have a PB12 + dsp, the difference between them is minimal.
In the PC version the driver pointed to the ground, this may excite room modes and give a sound perceived (subjectively) more violent.
I perceived subjectively where more sonic differences between PC and PB, has been in the music and for the PB.

For the rest, the PB12 PC12 + and + have identical performance, measurable differences that will be more audible. Although it is, the PB model always has some advantage over the PC. For something one is cheaper than another.

And NSD vs Plus:
The Plus has an average of 6 dB higher. According to data-bass numbers (nsd) and compared with the numbers of Audioholics (Plus).

NSD


Plus


A greeting.
post #11705 of 15651
Whether or not the nsd can keep up depends on what levels you listen at. It's definitely powerful enough to get you evicted in an apartment!

those klipsch aren't nearly as efficient as they list them and I'm sure you aren't listening at reference level anyway.

Talk to svs. You can also try the nsd out first.

As for the downfiring, I think I had read about it having a worse effect on the people below you in an apartment. Svs would know better.
post #11706 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Whether or not the nsd can keep up depends on what levels you listen at. It's definitely powerful enough to get you evicted in an apartment!

those klipsch aren't nearly as efficient as they list them and I'm sure you aren't listening at reference level anyway.

Talk to svs. You can also try the nsd out first.

As for the downfiring, I think I had read about it having a worse effect on the people below you in an apartment. Svs would know better.

Although your sensitivity statement very well might be true, have you ever swapped speakers out for a decent set of Klipsch and noticed how far you need to scale back your settings? just sayin
post #11707 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Although your sensitivity statement very well might be true, have you ever swapped speakers out for a decent set of Klipsch and noticed how far you need to scale back your settings? just sayin

On my La Scalas? Yes. Little less on the Cornscalas and a little less on the Crites CS-1T's

My point is that they are not CRAZY efficient and even if they were, his listening level and room size would determine if the nsd could keep up or not.
post #11708 of 15651
Quote:
even if they were, his listening level and room size would determine if the nsd could keep up or not.

Yes, that would be the finality of it! for that matter, the same would go for his speakers.
post #11709 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

I was thinking because the PC12's a downfiring cone, it will be more obvious to the neighbours below. While the PB has a front firing cone, the waves will be push in front and not below.

Except for near field (i.e. sitting next to the sub) listening, the radiation of bass frequencies is omnidirectional (i.e. in all directions), so this should not be a factor in choosing a box or cylinder. There are two things which will annoy the neighbours below (and one which will annoy the ones above) which are obviated, or at least mitigated, by the same solution: a sub riser. The riser will prevent the sub from vibrating the floor directly by moving it off the floor, and will reduce vertical "room modes" which waste energy through the floor and ceiling.

You can make one yourself at little or no cost.

The riser will also make your sub sound better in the listening space by keeping more of the energy in the listening space and reducing resonances resulting from the spacing of the rooms' surfaces - room modes. You can read all about it in the early posits in the DIY Subwoofer Risers thread.

My PC12-NSD lived on a series of risers in my apartment for several years. It easily had the output to annoy everyone in the building, but with the riser I could enjoy pleasingly loud volumes without excessive leakage. That said, understand that most materials are fairly transparent to very low frequencies, so no sane amount of room treatment is going to isolate your sub from the environment.
post #11710 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Thanks for your reply. Plus it is in that case.

But regarding the PC12-PLUS vs the PB12-PLUS, I was thinking because the PC12's a downfiring cone, it will be more obvious to the neighbours below. While the PB has a front firing cone, the waves will be push in front and not below.

It won't make any difference bass is omnidirectional. So go with whatever form factor works best in your room.
post #11711 of 15651
2000 watts RMS and 7600 watts Peak . . . I may need to brace the foundation!

post #11712 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

2000 watts RMS and 7600 watts Peak . . . I may need to brace the foundation!
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


There is something wrong with that picture....................that is not my house!!!!


Congrats on the duals and don't forget to post your initial impressions as soon as you have a chance.........wink.gif
post #11713 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

2000 watts RMS and 7600 watts Peak . . . I may need to brace the foundation!


Nice set of twins!
post #11714 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

There is something wrong with that picture....................that is not my house!!!!


Congrats on the duals and don't forget to post your initial impressions as soon as you have a chance.........wink.gif

So initial impressions . . . not that great actually. BUT, I will say it could be my issue . . so I'm giving it another go tomorrow.


The subs are super impressive build quality, look, size, etc. The new subs look like they might go eat my old SVS SB-12NSDs . . .





So since previously I had sub-crawled the room and took mic measurements EVERYWHERE to determine the best locations. I MIGHT have made a big mistake assuming the SB13 Ultras would be happy in those SAME locations also . .

I took measurements, pulled the old subs out, put the new ones in, re did Audyssey XT32 the way I always do it . . .

The result (top graph is the SB12NSDs vs. the SB13 Ultras at different adjusted levels in the receiver to hold the EQ.



I will admit the issue might be, the SB13 ultras just dont like the same locations the SB12NSDs were in . . .

I thought maybe I screwed up Audyssey so I re-ran the config and got the same results. (came in at -7 and -7.5 dbs down well within eq range).
the knee of the curve seems to only have improved 2 hz, and the slope from that point (22hz vs. 20hz) down to the cutoffs seems to be the same.

Soo . . I'm not sure if I'm gaining anything with the SB13Ultras in this room. They are NEUTERED to crap because of their power and size of the room(3000cubic).

To get Audyssey to run at 75db I had to run EACH sub down at -19db volume setting.

I'm done for the night, tomorrow I will dig into new sub placement and re-run audyssey again with a -20 to try to give more headroom to the eq before giving up.

Final pic of room placement:


Edited by kamiraa - 9/17/13 at 8:02pm
post #11715 of 15651
It looks like you are not getting any room gain...you might consider swapping to some PB12+'s...However I would exhaust all placement options before going that route.
post #11716 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

So initial impressions . . . not that great actually.

The subs are super impressive build quality, look, size, etc. The new subs look like they might go eat my old SVS SB-12NSDs . . .

So since previously I had sub-crawled the room and took mic measurements EVERYWHERE to determine the best locations. I MIGHT have made a big mistake assuming the SB13 Ultras would be happy in those locations also . .

I took measurements, pulled the old subs out, put the new ones in, re did Audyssey XT32 the way I always do it . . .

The result (top graph is the SB12NSDs vs. the SB13 Ultras at different adjusted levels in the receiver to hold the EQ.



I will admit the issue might be, the SB13 ultras just dont like the same locations the SB12NSDs were in . . .

the knee of the curve seems to only have improved 2 hz, and the slope from that point (22hz vs. 20hz) seems to be the same.

Soo . . I'm not sure if I'm gaining anything with the SB13Ultras in this room. They are neutured to crap because of the size (3000cubic).

To get Audyssey to run at 75db I had to run EACH sub down at -19db volume setting.

I'm done for the night, tomorrow I will dig into new sub placement and re-run audyssey before giving up.

Did you put both subs together and measure SPL for each one individually (one on while the other one is off) and them both running together? You should be able to see an increase at the SPL from 4 to 6 dB while running the subs together. That should help you to confirm they are not cancelling each other.

If that is not the issue, then you will have to try different locations for the new subs. I have two PB13 Ultras and a Denon 4311 and as you, I had to adjust the subwoofer volume to -20 dB to hit the 75 dB required for Audyssey to perform the calibration.
post #11717 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Did you put both subs together and measure SPL for each one individually (one on while the other one is off) and them both running together? You should be able to see an increase at the SPL from 4 to 6 dB while running the subs together. That should help you to confirm they are not cancelling each other.

If that is not the issue, then you will have to try different locations for the new subs. I have two PB13 Ultras and a Denon 4311 and as you, I had to adjust the subwoofer volume to -20 dB to hit the 75 dB required for Audyssey to perform the calibration.

I think the Denon AVR-4520ci with Audyssey XT32 is suppose to adjust phase during the measurement cycles to prevent cancellations
post #11718 of 15651
I just pulled the trigger on a PB-1000 to replace my Cadence CSX-12 II. I researched SVS, Rythmik, Outlaw and Power Sound Audio and in the end, the PB-1000 hit all of the important check boxes in our criteria for a replacement sub. Jman's review was very helpful, as was S&V's test of both the PB-1000 and the PB12-NSD. I was surprised at just how close the PB-1000 tested compared to its bigger, and more expensive brother according to S&V. Here are the numbers from S&V along with my CSX-12 for comparison sake:

PB-1000 Results:
Frequency response
18 Hz to 177 Hz, ±3 dB
Bass output (CEA-2010A standard)
• Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 113.0 dB
20 Hz 110.6 dB
25 Hz 113.0 dB
31.5 Hz 114.9 dB
• Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 121.6 dB
40 Hz 119.8 dB
50 Hz 122.2 dB
63 Hz 122.5 dB

PB12-NSD Results:
Frequency response
19 to 272 Hz ±3 dB
Bass output (CEA-2010A standard)
• Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 111.0 dB
20 Hz 110.2 dB
25 Hz 110.8 dB
31.5 Hz 112.1 dB
• Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 118.1 dB
40 Hz 119.0 dB
50 Hz 120.3 dB
63 Hz 115.1 dB

Cadence CSX-12 II Results:
Frequency response
34 to 154 Hz: ±3 dB
Bass output (CEA-2010A standard)
• Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 103.2 dB
20 Hz 91.3 dB
25 Hz 105.4 dB
31.5 Hz 113.1 dB
• Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 121.6 dB
40 Hz 117.2 dB
50 Hz 121.9 dB
63 Hz 125.6 dB
post #11719 of 15651
i think your have the pb1000 and the nsd reversed
post #11720 of 15651
post #11721 of 15651
ah i see now

the PB1000 was done close mic. the NSD was at 2 meters
post #11722 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJCxZ0 View Post

Except for near field (i.e. sitting next to the sub) listening, the radiation of bass frequencies is omnidirectional (i.e. in all directions), so this should not be a factor in choosing a box or cylinder. There are two things which will annoy the neighbours below (and one which will annoy the ones above) which are obviated, or at least mitigated, by the same solution: a sub riser. The riser will prevent the sub from vibrating the floor directly by moving it off the floor, and will reduce vertical "room modes" which waste energy through the floor and ceiling.

You can make one yourself at little or no cost.

The riser will also make your sub sound better in the listening space by keeping more of the energy in the listening space and reducing resonances resulting from the spacing of the rooms' surfaces - room modes. You can read all about it in the early posits in the DIY Subwoofer Risers thread.

My PC12-NSD lived on a series of risers in my apartment for several years. It easily had the output to annoy everyone in the building, but with the riser I could enjoy pleasingly loud volumes without excessive leakage. That said, understand that most materials are fairly transparent to very low frequencies, so no sane amount of room treatment is going to isolate your sub from the environment.

What a great solution. Didn't know about this.
So basically those small pads you put the sub on will help lessen the sound leaking to the neighbors below? Won't it affect the sub's performance?

I think I'm getting one of those Auralex Subdudes.
Edited by blue13x - 9/18/13 at 3:49pm
post #11723 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

So basically those small pads you put the sub on will help lessen the sound leaking to the neighbors below?

That would depend on what you mean by "small pads". A riser is usually a platform with some type of filling. Pads or feet might be sufficient to address the problem of direct vibration, but not significantly reduce room modes. You can read all about risers in the thread to which I linked.
Quote:
Won't it affect the sub's performance?

Depending on the "it" to which you refer, yes, it will. As I said, "The riser will also make your sub sound better in the listening space".
post #11724 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

So initial impressions . . . not that great actually. BUT, I will say it could be my issue . . so I'm giving it another go tomorrow.


The subs are super impressive build quality, look, size, etc. The new subs look like they might go eat my old SVS SB-12NSDs . . .





So since previously I had sub-crawled the room and took mic measurements EVERYWHERE to determine the best locations. I MIGHT have made a big mistake assuming the SB13 Ultras would be happy in those SAME locations also . .

I took measurements, pulled the old subs out, put the new ones in, re did Audyssey XT32 the way I always do it . . .

The result (top graph is the SB12NSDs vs. the SB13 Ultras at different adjusted levels in the receiver to hold the EQ.



I will admit the issue might be, the SB13 ultras just dont like the same locations the SB12NSDs were in . . .

I thought maybe I screwed up Audyssey so I re-ran the config and got the same results. (came in at -7 and -7.5 dbs down well within eq range).
the knee of the curve seems to only have improved 2 hz, and the slope from that point (22hz vs. 20hz) down to the cutoffs seems to be the same.

Soo . . I'm not sure if I'm gaining anything with the SB13Ultras in this room. They are NEUTERED to crap because of their power and size of the room(3000cubic).

To get Audyssey to run at 75db I had to run EACH sub down at -19db volume setting.

I'm done for the night, tomorrow I will dig into new sub placement and re-run audyssey again with a -20 to try to give more headroom to the eq before giving up.

Final pic of room placement:


It looks like you have room for bigger subs. Why not go with the pb12-plus's?
post #11725 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

I think I'm getting one of those Auralex Subdudes.

I have a GRAMMA, and it's worked quite well for me.
post #11726 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

So initial impressions . . . not that great actually. BUT, I will say it could be my issue . . so I'm giving it another go
...
I will admit the issue might be, the SB13 ultras just dont like the same locations the SB12NSDs were in . . .

Did you check the phase? Not sure if you did or not but I had to put mine at 165 degrees to get the punch. I'm almost tempted to pull out the amp to see if the wiring is backwards.
post #11727 of 15651
My new PB13 Ultra is supposed to be delivered tomorrow. Hopefully that and my PB12 plus will be enough for my 6,000 ft^3 room. If not, probably selling the plus and buying a second Ultra.
post #11728 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post


To get Audyssey to run at 75db I had to run EACH sub down at -19db volume setting.

When the volume is set to ~-19 dB on the subs, what is the final subwoofer channel level in the AVR for each sub?

What are the settings in your AVR for Audyssey LFC (if so equipped), Dynamic EQ, and Dynamic Volume?

The SB13U has a bit more than 2X the max output of the SB12-NSD, so they should definitely be impressing and an obvious upgrade over the SB12s.
post #11729 of 15651
just ordered a SB13-Ultra. it will be replace an old Def Tech Supercube II. I hope it gets here soon.
post #11730 of 15651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

When the volume is set to ~-19 dB on the subs, what is the final subwoofer channel level in the AVR for each sub?

What are the settings in your AVR for Audyssey LFC (if so equipped), Dynamic EQ, and Dynamic Volume?

The SB13U has a bit more than 2X the max output of the SB12-NSD, so they should definitely be impressing and an obvious upgrade over the SB12s.

Hi Ed, I was going to give you a call today but looks like I missed you. I'll try tomorrow.

I'm at -19 on the subs, the XT32 is finalizing it at -7 and -7.5 on each sub on the AVR.

Dynamic Volume & LFC is off, Dynamic EQ is on

Should I aim for a -20 and give the AVR more headroom (shoot for a final -2 or -3?)????

I just didn't want to take away to much gain from the amp.

I only seemed to have gained 1-2 hz lower before the knee of the curve starts, and the slope from that low frequency (22 or 20hz) looks to be the same.


With XT32 do you need to play with phase or does the program balance that at first??


Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

It looks like you have room for bigger subs. Why not go with the pb12-plus's?

I'm upgrading to diamond series soon. I wanted the accuracy of a sealed sub because I listen to a lot of music



EDIT:

So I spent half the night re-mic'ing the room looking for the sweet spots with the new subs (over 50 measurements).

I found a good location that gives me a pretty good response so I started to hone in that location.

I want to see how the Audyssey XT32 will respond to this location in the AM, but calling it quits for now at 3am.

If it can pull up +9db from the knee I may get a good response in this location. . . (sub is at -20db so plenty of headroom).



I'm also going to try DOUBLE stacking the SB12-NSDs in this same location to check the response, less power (but I'm not using it all anyways), BUT way more surface area (71% more surface area, 226 inches squared vs. 132 inches squared). Only problem is the SB12 NSDs have that crazy cut off to protect the woofers so it might not help . . .

I think I will be sending back one of the Ultras sadly enough, not sure there is a location where they both would work.
Edited by kamiraa - 9/20/13 at 1:17am
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