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post #11761 of 15701
repositioned the sub and ran the test louder after calibrating the REW SPL. I am still wondering if something is wrong with my setup. specifically is the mic calibrated. I loaded the mic calibration file and its my understanding that since i am using a USB mic and HDMI that I don't need to calibrate the sound card. is that correct

here is the latest result.


Edited by treky11 - 9/26/13 at 11:32am
post #11762 of 15701
I used a handheld spl meter to verify rew is calibrated with the mic. My umm-6 mic was not calibrated correctly with rew on initial setup even with the calibration file.
post #11763 of 15701
Both SB13ultras almost fully integrated, I marked the areas, wrote down the measurements, and I'm off to try a second promising area . .




I'm developing new methods of how to properly integrate two subs, and it's working out pretty well. I'm using all 4 PEQs to get this response . . .and the built in high pass filters.

The transition from sub to speaker is now seemless!

Wish me lucks folks, almost there for my quest to a flatline response
post #11764 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Both SB13ultras almost fully integrated, I marked the areas, wrote down the measurements, and I'm off to try a second promising area . .




I'm developing new methods of how to properly integrate two subs, and it's working out pretty well. I'm using all 4 PEQs to get this response . . .and the built in high pass filters.

The transition from sub to speaker is now seemless!

Wish me lucks folks, almost there for my quest to a flatline response

Good luck! looking good..
post #11765 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

I'm developing new methods of how to properly integrate two subs, and it's working out pretty well. I'm using all 4 PEQs to get this response . . .and the built in high pass filters.

At this point you could probably write a book on the topic! tongue.gif I'll bet everyone else in your house is starting to think you've lost it though...
post #11766 of 15701
Kamiraa!!! Great Work Man!!

Sometimes, sorting through room/set up issues can be a major challenge, but You did it, in the exact same manner that an Ant eats an Elephant. "One Bite at a Time".

That response looks awesome. Well Done!

Don't forget to Tip your Hat to Ed Mullen at SVS for his inputs.

Enjoy!!

CV
post #11767 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Both SB13ultras almost fully integrated, I marked the areas, wrote down the measurements, and I'm off to try a second promising area . .




I'm developing new methods of how to properly integrate two subs, and it's working out pretty well. I'm using all 4 PEQs to get this response . . .and the built in high pass filters.

The transition from sub to speaker is now seemless!

Wish me lucks folks, almost there for my quest to a flatline response

That's what's great about the SVS subs, the PEQ. Once I get my new pre-pro I plan on doing the same... looking good.

I probably won't get a second sub for a bit but when I do, I'll hit you up for some tips.

Good job!
post #11768 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

That's what's great about the SVS subs, the PEQ. Once I get my new pre-pro I plan on doing the same... looking good.

I probably won't get a second sub for a bit but when I do, I'll hit you up for some tips.

Good job!

I agree the PEQ feature is nice but do take note that you can get a mini dsp for 125.00 bucks that will do all that and some for up to 4 subs. Also it can be done on the fly from a laptop no need to keeo going to the back of the sub to make adjustments. Not trying to steal any limelight from the ultras, just noting there are alternative options that work well.

Kamiraa, nice graph! I see persistance is paying off. smile.gif
post #11769 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I agree the PEQ feature is nice but do take note that you can get a mini dsp for 125.00 bucks that will do all that and some for up to 4 subs. Also it can be done on the fly from a laptop no need to keeo going to the back of the sub to make adjustments. Not trying to steal any limelight from the ultras, just noting there are alternative options that work well.

Kamiraa, nice graph! I see persistance is paying off. smile.gif

That is good to know. Since I already have PEQ, I'll continue to use that but for others, they don't have to consider that in their decision process with something like the mini dsp.
post #11770 of 15701
Sadly, I've given up with the dual SB13's after playing around I was able to dial in a single sub to somewhat close the same performance.

My girl thinks I'm going nuts after over 30 hours dedicated time trying to integrate both subs perfectly.


It's my crappy room being open to the stairs that is screwing up things. If one of the bedrooms or bathrooms have a different configuration (opened, closed, etc) the second sub-woofers sound waves end up traveling in that open area, reflecting back, and causing a massive wave cancellation at higher frequencies (60-80hz).

It was so unpredictable. So much so that I took those measurements above with a single Audyssey location (not the 8), and marked the floor with tape where the sub-woofers were located, the peqs, and all other settings. I then moved ONE of the subs to try another location, after that location did not pan out I moved the SB13 Ultras back to where they were. I applied the PEQs back, volume, and even checked everything with a ruler from previous measurements; what I got was a massive null.

I tried and tried to remove it by tweaking the position and angle, and found out that only if all the doors were closed, and ONE of the doors was at an EXACT angle would the null go away. When I talk about exact I'm talking about within 15 degrees. If I closed them all the null appeared at a different frequency. If I opened them all the null appeared in another location.

Each sub was getting a great response in that frequency, but for some reason one of canceling. I tried manually adjusting phase which just introduced other nulls.

The first sub is not really affected by any of those items based on my measurements. I think it's because it's tucked further into the room and has a few walls to bounce off of. The second sub which was having the null problems was closed to the stairs.

I'm going to stick with a single SB13 ultra until I change rooms or houses (which will be in the next year or two). The dual SB13ultras sound SUPER nice, and if this was a typical room I would have them tamed by now.

Moral of the story, second floor game rooms with a lot of open walls are hard to control.

I want to thank Ed for reaching out to help. I'm actually going to keep my SB12's and move them into another room because I like their performance so much, also a single SB13ultra is staying. The one I purchased from the outlet center I need to return back.

Now at least I can get some sleep, been sick all week.

I've lost the battle my friends . . . I'll win the war with the next room/house
Edited by kamiraa - 9/28/13 at 1:39am
post #11771 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

At this point you could probably write a book on the topic! tongue.gif I'll bet everyone else in your house is starting to think you've lost it though...

Yes they think I'm nuts

I've got a few messages about the methods I used, so I will keep it simple and write out what I learned if you have a good mic setup, Audyssey XT32, and a decent back for all the heavy lifting

The old method of putting the sub in seating location and crawling around works for the most part, but does add some issues for dual subs. In the end I ended up having to verify all those areas again, so I would skip this method. So the hard work . . . .

1. Setup two mic stands, one with the Audyssey mic, one with the calibration mic, at center seating location, ear level. Get REW up and running.

2. Drag the first sub around the room, if you have a bad back get a movers dolly the size of the sub and get pushing. I just ended up picking up this sub by hand a few hundred times . . .

Take a measurement at every location around the room in foot increments at a time, never change the volume. Put a time delay on the measurement REW will take and exit the room into the same location each time which the measurement is taking place.

3. Analysis the graphs you have and look for the smoothest one, that is your ROUGH placement for sub 1

4. Place sub 1 there and now begins the fine tweaking of the position. Start taking other measurements (6 inches to the right, 6 inches to the left, 6 inches back, 6 inches front, angled, etc)

5. Now Sub 1 placement is sort of done.

6. Break out sub 2 and ignore every other location measurement you have taken, start a new REW window because you will need open memory spaces.

7. With sub 2 is in your first new location (sub 1 has been already selected not to move), run Audyssey XT32's subEQ for BOTH subs , after they both balance out at 73db you can quit the scan, no chirps needed from the main speakers. Take a REW measurement here with both subs on and playing. You are now measuring your combined response!

8. Repeat step 7 for as many locations as you want to try, never move sub 1, always take measurements with both subs on. YOU NEED balance the spl that Audyssey SubEQ will see at every new location, otherwise Audyssey will turn down one of the subs and skew your curves later on. You are looking for the complimented pair.

9. Look at all these new combined curves and pick the smoothest. It's ok if it PEAKS in an area, just avoid anything that has nulls. You can take out power very easily with the built in PEQs, you can not add much power in, especially to overcome a room null.

9. Once you find your location (or possible locations) for sub 2, you need to take measurements of each sub individually (turn one off, and one on). At this point you should have 3 measurements, sub 1 by itself, sub 2 by itself, and both subs together after balanced.

10. Graph all three of those curves together, and figure out which sub you will apply a PEQ on at what frequency to tame the overall curve. Remember you can pull down up to -12, but only pull up +3 db. So try to pull DOWN the curves to match. You're going to try a TON of measurements in this step just trying different frequencies, q values, offsets, etc. Just play around and see what works the best. Usually it's best to adjust a peak from the sub which has the peak.

11. Along the way you want to re-run Audyssey XT32 Sub eq to make sure the EQs haven't thrown off the balance matching of both subs. It's a juggling act between applying these PEQs, getting Audyssey to like the level of both subs.

12. Your final result should be as smooth of a curve as possible to let Audyssey do it's thing.

13. Run Audyssey, change speaker configs back to small, Crossovers to all 80hz, don't mess with levels, and the final step . . .

14. PRAY this worked biggrin.gifcool.gif
post #11772 of 15701
Anybody else hear a weird sound behind the driver near reference levels on their sealed subs?

I have a svs sb13 ultra and with all my speakers unplugged with just the sub going, on hard notes I hear a noise that seems to be coming from inside the box.
post #11773 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunxbox View Post

Anybody else hear a weird sound behind the driver near reference levels on their sealed subs?

I have a svs sb13 ultra and with all my speakers unplugged with just the sub going, on hard notes I hear a noise that seems to be coming from inside the box.


One possibility it could be a wire inside that is hitting somewhere inside the enclosure with all that air moving inside. I had a similar issue once with one of main Paradigm Studio 80's. I remove the bass driver only to find out a wire was the culprit. I tucked it in nicely in between the insulation material and viola! no more noise when playing the speaker loudly. smile.gif
post #11774 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

I've lost the battle my friends . . . I'll win the war with the next room/house

Just in case you haven't already thought of this... did you try try pointing any of the SB13's at the wall? I know that sounds nuts, but it's a trick I picked up from Josh Ricci. He often does it, and when I experimented with doing that myself the measured response at the main LP changed noticeably. I would imagine at this point you don't want to try anything else, but if you're up for one more challenge it might be worth considering.
post #11775 of 15701
Quote:
One possibility it could be a wire inside that is hitting somewhere inside the enclosure with all that air moving inside. I had a similar issue once with one of main Paradigm Studio 80's. I remove the bass driver only to find out a wire was the culprit. I tucked it in nicely in between the insulation material and viola! no more noise when playing the speaker loudly.

Good idea! Thing is though, I dunno if a guy can remove the Ultra driver? We used to do it with the 12 but supposedly removing the 13 Ultra driver will/used to negate your warranty and SVS had it rigged where you had to have a special tool. I dunno, but I was forewarned though. biggrin.gif
Edited by steve nn - 9/28/13 at 7:29pm
post #11776 of 15701
Quote:
I'm going to stick with a single SB13 ultra until I change rooms or houses (which will be in the next year or two). The dual SB13ultras sound SUPER nice, and if this was a typical room I would have them tamed by now.

I totally understand, that’s the way it is sometimes. If you need more headroom you can certainly stack/collocate.. that you know though.
post #11777 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Good idea! Thing is though, I dunno if a guy can remove the Ultra driver? We used to do it with the 12 but supposedly removing the 13 Ultra driver will/used to negate your warranty and SVS had it rigged where you had to have a special tool. I dunno, but I was forewarned though. biggrin.gif

Why remove the driver? Removing the amp is much easier and would allow you to do the same thing.
post #11778 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

Why remove the driver? Removing the amp is much easier and would allow you to do the same thing.

Removing the amp is no walk in the park. Don't ask me how I know...
post #11779 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Removing the amp is no walk in the park. Don't ask me how I know...
wink.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

Why remove the driver? Removing the amp is much easier and would allow you to do the same thing.
I guess was referring to removing the driver alone not fixing the problem if indeed it is?
post #11780 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Just in case you haven't already thought of this... did you try try pointing any of the SB13's at the wall? I know that sounds nuts, but it's a trick I picked up from Josh Ricci. He often does it, and when I experimented with doing that myself the measured response at the main LP changed noticeably. I would imagine at this point you don't want to try anything else, but if you're up for one more challenge it might be worth considering.

Yup I tried every orientation, and angle trying to make them work.

Actually two of my best locations was corner loading the subs, one sub in the front left corner of the room facing into the corner, and the other sub in the back right of the room facing into the corner.
post #11781 of 15701
Hi guys smile.gif It's been a while since I posted but I read everything... Reading is much easier on a tablet and I lack time for writing right now. I must applaud kamiraa's efforts though -- the amount of dedication to his task is impressive. However, don't get too tangled up in details and don't forget to actually enjoy your setup. Forgetting to do so is the greatest danger at this point!

I think Kamiraa should build a wall to seal his room from the stairs and definitely get rid of the sub-20 Hz dip tongue.gif

***

Anyway, on an other topic... I have this friend who I sort of hooked on measurements and sub performance issues. He's now looking at a potential upgrade to his sub, a Paradigm DSP 3100. This sub is a ported 10-inch, 200W RMS one, with a Paradigm-rated 24 Hz "DIN" (aka "typical in-room") lower cut-off.

The friend in question would really love a black oak sub to complement his new Monitor Audio setup, but the matching sub, the RXW12, looks to be similar in performance to the SB12 (perhaps it has a bit of an edge over it in fact with a 500W amp), but cost at least double. Of course he's interested by the SB13-Ultra but is way over his stated budget of "about $1000".

He's almost tempted to go with an Axiom EP500 at $1300 which can be had in black oak, but considering the Ilkka saga, I'm trying to convince him to go with SVS. However he's balking at the size of the NSD, Plus and Ultra ported subs.

So, would a PB-1000 (which is not black oak, but black ash may be close enough of a match) be a minor, moderate or good upgrade over the DSP 3100? I know Paradigm is relatively reputed but the quoted DIN response is very optimistic. However, spending $500 to upgrade from a 10-inch 200W to a 10-inch 300W sub looks like a bizarre proposition on paper. I talked to him about getting two PB-1000s, or one now and perhaps another later, but the question of how much of an upgrade over the DSP 3100 it would be is still an interesting one. Anyone care to comment?

And also, what about the performances of the Monitor Audio RXW12 and the Axiom EP500 in comparison to SVS subs? I know about Ilkka's test pitting the $430 PB10-ISD against the $1780 EP600 at the time, but maybe Axiom's newer offerings are much better? Anyway, my advice for him is to contact SVS first and foremost with his questions; and also consider either a PB-1000 (with the option open for a second one later), or go all the way with an SB13 if he's busting his budget anyway smile.gif
post #11782 of 15701
When I was upgrading, I auditioned the EP500, PB12-NSD (DSP) and settled with the PB12-Plus. The EP500 was easily bested by the NSD yet is comparable in price to the Plus. Needless to say, the Plus absolutely destroys the EP500. Prior to this I had the EP350 for 6 years and I couldnt tell a significant difference between the 350 and 500.
post #11783 of 15701
Thanks trolly! That's a data point smile.gif Do you remember in more details how the PB12-NSD bested the EP500? Was it extension? Output? How it sounded in general?

I too have a Plus (duals in fact) so I'm pretty confident that at equal price the SVS is much more interesting. But for this friend, price is not the only concern...
post #11784 of 15701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

Great choice. I know I love mine. And don't forget the 3600W peak power. VERY important.

After breaking in my PC13-Ultra for a month I am extremely pleased with the way the sub has improved my music and movie listening. This sub has seamless integrated with my B&W 803D fronts, my B&W in wall surrounds, my Classe SSP-800 & CA-5300. After trying various crossover settings my room worked best at 70Hz with one foam port plug. Ran TrueRTA and had a 40hz bump I was unable to smooth out with PEQ. Finally discovered the cause was low frequency rumble from adjacent expressway, which I found while trying to create a room curve. With all other 1/3 octave RTA data + or - 5db so I began my critical listening this week. I spend about 80% listening to music via Ethernet with JRiver or DLNA and 20% to movies via my Oppo 105 analog XLR.

Crisp and powerful low bass is in abundant supply. Art Blakey's drum percussions have that live snap which is so difficult to reproduce. The canons shots in the 1812 Overture and Master & Commander strike in your gut. Best of all is the magical balance and transition between the B&W's and the SVS sub.

Originally was using RCA cables to the sub about 15 ft away from equipment but was getting some hum. Switched to fully balanced XLR cable to sub and hum disappeared and the sub seemed to come alive. Dark side of the moon and wish you were here never sounded this good In my room, the bass enveloped and matched well with the higher octaves. Star Trek into the darkness, Dark Knight Returns, and Prometheus in DTS-HD master audio provided the SVS with challenging lower register musical scores that immersed me. Honest musical low bass with no coloration or overhang.

Wondering how much better my room will sound with two subs is my next project! Thanks to all of you for this informative thread.
post #11785 of 15701
Hi neutro- it was extension and output; the difference was startling. Watching Thor with the NSD completely exposed the performance shortcomings of the EP500. The cabinet of the NSD is a little larger than the Axiom but for the performance gained and the money saved there's not any reason I can think of to choose the EP500.
post #11786 of 15701
Looking at SVS for a sub in my apartment. Living Room measures about 20' x 12' carpeted with vault ceiling. This opens up into a kitchen and hallway.

I have a newish Denon receiver with Polk TSI-100's at the front and rear. The TSI-100's have 5.25" woofers. I cross over the TSI's at 80. At the volume levels I use it sounds great to my ears.

I don't go play something like Cloverfield everyday, but I can play movies at a moderate level without hearing knocks on the door. I also do listen to music quite a bit...rock, country, folk etc. I do not play music or movies at a really loud level. I keep it reasonable for an apartment.

Weight is a concern and I would want to keep it under 50 pounds. I am looking at the SB-1000 & PB-1000. I currently have a 10" Lava subwoofer that I have use for in the bedroom. As far as $$ goes, the 1000's are very affordable.

If I jump up to the next level (PB12NSD or SB12NSD) the ported one becomes too large and heavy. More than I want to move around. The SB12NSD would be alright though.

It's between the PB-1000, SB-1000 or the SB12NSD as I see it. Size and weight are agreeing with me. Any advice would be helpful. I am not opposed to two subs, but my wife and I have just one small reclining couch as a listening position and listen at moderate to low levels 90% of the time.

Thanks.
post #11787 of 15701
PB-1000 it is. Go ported if you need going small for the reasons you mentioned.
post #11788 of 15701
^^^ Hey Jon.. I understand your thinking. If it were me I would go with the PB1000 since your room is not sealed but then I could see you going with the SB-NSD considering your criteria. A quick question I would have is have you considered the PC12-NSD? It comes in at 49 lbs, has a very small footprint, very easy to move and blends in much better than what one would think albeit be taller than your other considerations. It’s a little cheaper than the PB12-NSD also. It could be considered a little more future proof (your next move) since it has the most output. Anyway I don’t mean to second guess you, I just thought I would throw that out there just in case it might be a option? I admit my bias, I have been lugging a couple sono’s around for years. The PC being one of them, it’s just so easy to place and move considering it’s output and blends in so well like mentioned even though it’s taller.
post #11789 of 15701
^^^^
The PC12-NSD would probably be a bit too tall for the area. It does look like another great SVS sub, though!

I am leaning towards the PB-1000. Probably my second choice would be the SB12NSD. I wonder if the SB12NSD would have as much output as my Lave does on the low end...I think the Lava goes down to 24.

I just recently started trying out the Lava in different locations and I placed it right next to the couch close to the wall and new I found a sweet spot. I do like the Lava and am moving it to the bedroom.

So...would the SB12NSD go as low as the Lava most likely? I do like that choice, but on the other hand I would like to experience the low end of the PB-1000. Probably couldn't really go wrong with any of them!!

Thanks!
post #11790 of 15701
^^^ Gotcha! Both options you’re considering will be a far better choice than the Lava as they should be considering they cost more. Considering the size of your room and it being open, I would suggest going the PB1000, it will be a substantial upgrade in extension and SQ. http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/lsp12-subwoofer/lsp12-measurements
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