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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 398

post #11911 of 15579
It probably achieves that frequency response through equalization. Without equalization, no sealed sub in the world is only -3dB at 18 Hz.
post #11912 of 15579
^^^+1 No doubt about it! common old unadulterated dsp oxymoron
Edited by steve nn - 10/18/13 at 7:06pm
post #11913 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

It probably achieves that frequency response through equalization. Without equalization, no sealed sub in the world is only -3dB at 18 Hz.

Um, my DD15 will go lower than that.
post #11914 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

Um, my DD15 will go lower than that.

No doubt, no doubt, but if it's less than 3dB down at 18Hz, that's probably because its onboard electronics augment its response there, as the natural response of such a sub would probably be down more than 3dB at 18Hz. That doesn't mean it has no output under 18Hz.

Not that anybody did, but if you ask me, a gradually rolled off response at the low end is part of the "tightness" for which people favor sealed subs in the first place.
post #11915 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

No doubt, no doubt, but if it's less than 3dB down at 18Hz, that's probably because its onboard electronics augment its response there, as the natural response of such a sub would probably be down more than 3dB at 18Hz. That doesn't mean it has no output under 18Hz.

Not that anybody did, but if you ask me, a gradually rolled off response at the low end is part of the "tightness" for which people favor sealed subs in the first place.

Understood, but I was merely responding to the comment that no sealed sub can go that low which is simply not true. I did not specify how they do it. Most modern high end subs are packed full of technology that helps them achieve incredible feats. For home theater, there is not much out there that I would trade my DD15 fo however this is heading off topic.
post #11916 of 15579
Yeah dude, most of us would be happy to have something so nice, I know I would smile.gif
post #11917 of 15579
SVS Rookie here:

I have a 3400 cubic ft room and 2 Dual-PB12-Plus's for this space. The subs are set up in the front corners of my theater. When I received the subs I just plugged them in, ran Audyssey and that was it. I feel the subs should have more output but I'm not sure what to set them at. When I run Audyssey am I supposed to be tweaking the system after? Do I need to adjust the AVR? Subs? or both?

Thanks,

Jim
post #11918 of 15579
post #11919 of 15579
I've decided to go with the 2x SB12-NSD subs. Can't find a bad review on them and they seem to be a good fit for my room . Hopefully I'm not disappointed after previously deciding to go with Velodynes DD10+.
post #11920 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiguej View Post

SVS Rookie here:

I have a 3400 cubic ft room and 2 Dual-PB12-Plus's for this space. The subs are set up in the front corners of my theater. When I received the subs I just plugged them in, ran Audyssey and that was it. I feel the subs should have more output but I'm not sure what to set them at. When I run Audyssey am I supposed to be tweaking the system after? Do I need to adjust the AVR? Subs? or both?

Well sometimes the vanilla, flat Audyssey EQ can seem a bit lacking, especially at lower listening levels.

Did you turn Audyssey DynamicEQ on? This will boost bass (and treble, and surrounds) by several dBs when listening at lower levels.
post #11921 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiguej View Post

SVS Rookie here:

I have a 3400 cubic ft room and 2 Dual-PB12-Plus's for this space. The subs are set up in the front corners of my theater. When I received the subs I just plugged them in, ran Audyssey and that was it. I feel the subs should have more output but I'm not sure what to set them at. When I run Audyssey am I supposed to be tweaking the system after? Do I need to adjust the AVR? Subs? or both?

Thanks,

Jim

In addition to the great advice from Neutro, please tell us the following:

  • version of Audyssey in your AVR
  • the AVR speaker size for each channel
  • the AVR crossover frequency for each channel
  • the AVR subwoofer mode
  • the gain setting for each subwoofer
  • AVR subwoofer channel level.
post #11922 of 15579
Re-watched "The Incredible Hulk" last night. First time since I got my PC12+, 1650^3 room, sub in 16hz tune. It was MOST impressive. The pressure in the room at times was pretty intense and that is with the master volume at -10db, the sub channel at -2db and the gain on the sub at -7db (up from -13db for this movie).

I'm more than impressed with the performance.
post #11923 of 15579
Well, my turn to relate recent experiences, this time with a recently purchased PC12-NSD.

Frequent readers of this thread may recall that following an issue with the grille rattling on my SB12, which was in use at a friend's house, and since the fix was simply to get it replaced by a new sub (thanks SVS!), I took the opportunity to upgrade it to the PC12-NSD. The sub is used in a much bigger room than my own living room, and routinely gets played at much louder volume than I could. The switch to the vented NSD was very good decision (although I wish my friend had the money for a bigger upgrade).

So a week and a half ago it was Sub Friday, where we had a tuning party with 12" sub sandwiches (of course). While there was minimal changes to the frequency response between the SB12 and the PC12 in the two octaves spanning 20 to 80 Hz, where my trusty old BFD can do its work, I owed my friend a tune up. Guys, I've never seen peaks this large in a room, and I've taken measurement in four rooms now and seen countless on these forums. There are two peaks at 40 and 45 Hz. The headroom estimate in REW was 24 dB (more than recommended). I still managed to *clip* that. The peaks are thus around 24 dB high, and yes this is after adjusting the sub's level adequately. Of course the BFD manages to squash those and the sub level must be appreciably lifted afterwards.

As my friend has a Pioneer VSX-821-K receiver, it doesn't have Audyssey, and it also doesn't have any sub EQing capability. The BFD is totally necessary in his case or else any sub is just a one-note boomer. Enabling sub EQing is really like night and day on his setup. By the way, I had lots of trouble obtaining good bass with that Pioneer. There is no equivalent to Audyssey DynamicEQ as far as I can tell, and for some reason, loudness, bass and treble controls didn't seem to do anything. Listening to music at softer levels was a major letdown compared to my living room where DynamicEQ does wonders with the dual Pluses. If anyone has a hint on how to use the Pio to good effect, that would be great.

That being said, we did a few listening test. We got pretty loud but as the receiver is not displaying dB's below reference, I'm not sure where we were at. At no time we saw the limiter LED in action. This worried me a bit as the SB12's was blinking crazily for the same content at lower levels. I *know* the vented subs have considerable more oomph at very low frequencies, but still.

It so happens that we heard bizarre sounds coming from the PC12-NSD on a few occasions. The first was during the dreaded Server Room scene in Pulse (with which we were first aware of the grille ratlling problem with the SB12 previously). We distinctly heard something else -- much higher frequencies than the scene's content -- coming from the sub. And I know the scene well as it's one of my favorite on my own PB12-Pluses. And later, we found another example. Here is an audio recording (the .m4a file is inside the .zip) of that sub playing "Black Noise" in the last Nine Inch Nails album, at relatively high levels.

sub_growl.zip 280k .zip file

We can easily hear a growl, or perhaps a strange rattling, coming from the sub. We are in the process of trying to pinpoint the source and if we can't find anything we'll contact SVS and SBA. But if anyone has an idea what this could be, we'd appreciate your input. The sound really seems to come from the sub, and pressing the sub on the ground doesn't change the sound, so it doesn't look as the base is rattling on the wooden floor. Besides, the sub is even and sits squarely on the floor. The rattling doesn't come from a nearby wall.

I have three hypotheses for now...

  1. It's an external object that rattles (e.g. sub cable, base, flooring) but we missed it and we'll catch it by moving the sub or putting a ruber mat underneath (those are the coming steps in our troubleshooting attempts).
  2. It's an internal object that rattles (a port? or more probably perhaps, one of the woofer wires on a port or on the tube?)
  3. The amp is defective and the limiter is disabled, leading to high distortion at this level

How probable are hypotheses 2 and 3? Has anyone encountered such problems before?

Thanks for any help smile.gif
Edited by neutro - 10/22/13 at 1:49pm
post #11924 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well, my turn to relate recent experiences, this time with a recently purchased PC12-NSD.

Frequent readers of this thread may recall that following an issue with the grille rattling on my SB12, which was in use at a friend's house, and since the fix was simply to get it replaced by a new sub (thanks SVS!), I took the opportunity to upgrade it to the PC12-NSD. The sub is used in a much bigger room than my own living room, and routinely gets played at much louder volume than I could. The switch to the vented NSD was very good decision (although I wish my friend had the money for a bigger upgrade).

So a week and a half ago it was Sub Friday, where we had a tuning party with 12" sub sandwiches (of course). While there was minimal changes to the frequency response between the SB12 and the PC12 in the two octaves spanning 20 to 80 Hz, where my trusty old BFD can do its work, I owed my friend a tune up. Guys, I've never seen peaks this large in a room, and I've taken measurement in four rooms now and seen countless on these forums. There are two peaks at 40 and 45 Hz. The headroom estimate in REW was 24 dB (more than recommended). I still managed to *clip* that. The peaks are thus around 24 dB high, and yes this is after adjusting the sub's level adequately. Of course the BFD manages to squash those and the sub level must be appreciably lifted afterwards.

As my friend has a Pioneer VSX-821-K receiver, it doesn't have Audyssey, and it also doesn't have any sub EQing capability. The BFD is totally necessary in his case or else any sub is just a one-note boomer. Enabling sub EQing is really like night and day on his setup. By the way, I had lots of trouble obtaining good bass with that Pioneer. There is no equivalent to Audyssey DynamicEQ as far as I can tell, and for some reason, loudness, bass and treble controls didn't seem to do anything. Listening to music at softer levels was a major letdown compared to my living room where DynamicEQ does wonders with the dual Pluses. If anyone has a hint on how to use the Pio to good effect, that would be great.

That being said, we did a few listening test. We got pretty loud but as the receiver is not displaying dB's below reference, I'm not sure where we were at. At no time we saw the limiter LED in action. This worried me a bit as the SB12's was blinking crazily for the same content at lower levels. I *know* the vented subs have considerable more oomph at very low frequencies, but still.

It so happens that we heard bizarre sounds coming from the PC12-NSD on a few occasions. The first was during the dreaded Server Room scene in Pulse (with which we were first aware of the grille ratlling problem with the SB12 previously). We distinctly heard something else -- much higher frequencies than the scene's content -- coming from the sub. And I know the scene well as it's one of my favorite on my own PB12-Pluses. And later, we found another example. Here is an audio recording (the .m4a file is inside the .zip) of that sub playing "Black Noise" in the last Nine Inch Nails album, at relatively high levels.

sub_growl.zip 280k .zip file

We can easily hear a growl, or perhaps a strange rattling, coming from the sub. We are in the process of trying to pinpoint the source and if we can't find anything we'll contact SVS and SBA. But if anyone has an idea what this could be, we'd appreciate your input. The sound really seems to come from the sub, and pressing the sub on the ground doesn't change the sound, so it doesn't look as the base is rattling on the wooden floor. Besides, the sub is even and sits squarely on the floor. The rattling doesn't come from a nearby wall.

I have three hypotheses for now...

  1. It's an external object that rattles (e.g. sub cable, base, flooring) but we missed it and we'll catch it by moving the sub or putting a ruber mat underneath (those are the coming steps in our troubleshooting attempts).
  2. It's an internal object that rattles (a port? or more probably perhaps, one of the woofer wires on a port or on the tube?)
  3. The amp is defective and the limiter is disabled, leading to high distortion at this level

How probable are hypotheses 2 and 3? Has anyone encountered such problems before?

Thanks for any help smile.gif

Hi, Neutro.

That noise I had it in my PC13-Ultra DSP. The noise was because the wooden base of the subwoofer resonated with the ground floor. Especially when you put the volume too high. I gave solution with dense foam plate Protective who brought the PC13, put up the subwoofer and no more noise.

I also remember the noise to my PB12 + dsp (but much more leisurely and for brief periods of sound), which certainly have solved those noises were a problem input voltage to the amplifier of the subwoofer. We had to change the tab that is behind the "sledge" normal way, the way "Hi". Since then I went back to having no sound, all thanks to Team SVS and Ed Mullen.
post #11925 of 15579
Agree it could be the base plate buzzing on the floor. For a temporary troubleshooting test, try a a thick piece of carpeting or a dense foam pad. If that fixes it - then for long term look into a isolation pad or our isolation feet. The latter can be installed with or without the base plate.
post #11926 of 15579
Thanks Lecter & Ed -- as soon as I can, I'll test the sub with a rubber mat underneath.

So the new SVS isolation feet can be / are safe to be fitted on the cylinders too? And they can be used instead of the base plate? Interesting...
post #11927 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Thanks Lecter & Ed -- as soon as I can, I'll test the sub with a rubber mat underneath.

So the new SVS isolation feet can be / are safe to be fitted on the cylinders too? And they can be used instead of the base plate? Interesting...

Correct. They can be used with the base plate, or the base plate can be removed and they can be attached directly to the woofer end-cap. We include the screws for the base plate removal option. To retain the base plate, re-use the OE screws.
post #11928 of 15579
OK false alarm guys... The growling sound was indeed the base plate buzzing on the floor. A foam mat fixed the problem smile.gif We could even make the limiter LED blink this time but boy is it loud in this room! Sorry for the long, anxious prose.

Now if we could only make the bass and treble controls work with that Pio receiver, that would be great... I feel just running the sub hot is not exactly what I'm after. Anybody had similar issues with a Pioneer receiver? I myself had a 1020 previously by the bass controls worked with any source...
post #11929 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

OK false alarm guys... The growling sound was indeed the base plate buzzing on the floor.

post #11930 of 15579
The subs arrived!

post #11931 of 15579
Do you run them through a sub pre out or are you using them as "stereo subs", i.e. handling the bass content of each channel independently?

I think I understand better why you were not fond of cylinders for that room.

By the way I like the looks of that cylinder on the SVS shirt smile.gif Not sure what it's just eaten though biggrin.gif
post #11932 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

The subs arrived!


Pretty cool system you have! Congrats on the new additions, so the first question is: what do you think of them?
post #11933 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Do you run them through a sub pre out or are you using them as "stereo subs", i.e. handling the bass content of each channel independently?

I think I understand better why you were not fond of cylinders for that room.

By the way I like the looks of that cylinder on the SVS shirt smile.gif Not sure what it's just eaten though biggrin.gif

I run them through the left and right line outs from my amp.

cylinder on SVS shirt? confused.gif
post #11934 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Pretty cool system you have! Congrats on the new additions, so the first question is: what do you think of them?

Good so far, but still need some tweaking to get them perfect. The improvement so far is very subtle. Testament to the capabilities of the AG's.. I still need to break them in, so I suspect I'll see some improvement over the next couple of weeks.
post #11935 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

Good so far, but still need some tweaking to get them perfect. The improvement so far is very subtle. Testament to the capabilities of the AG's.. I still need to break them in, so I suspect I'll see some improvement over the next couple of weeks.

Glad to hear the first impressions are positive. Yeah, let them flex their muscles and then you will be more pleased on how they perform. Please keep posting on how things are evolving with your subs/system...........man that system.........very impressive!!

cool.gif
post #11936 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Glad to hear the first impressions are positive. Yeah, let them flex their muscles and then you will be more pleased on how they perform. Please keep posting on how things are evolving with your subs/system...........man that system.........very impressive!!

cool.gif

Thanks....will do. smile.gif
post #11937 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

I run them through the left and right line outs from my amp.

OK so you're running stereo subs! I think you're the first stereo sub setup that I've seen in this thread so far. So I guess you're using the sub's low pass filters as the crossover then? At what frequency did you set the filters?
Quote:
cylinder on SVS shirt? confused.gif

Sorry that was a reference to SaviorMachine's post just above yours...
post #11938 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

OK so you're running stereo subs! I think you're the first stereo sub setup that I've seen in this thread so far. So I guess you're using the sub's low pass filters as the crossover then? At what frequency did you set the filters?

That is correct. I have their x-overs set at 45 Hz.
post #11939 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

That is correct. I have their x-overs set at 45 Hz.

I too have dual subs and I have toyed in the past with the idea of trying stereo subs, as they're symmetrically positioned close to the L and R mains as are yours. So you just use the L and R pre outs and feed that to the subs with the LPF set at 45 Hz. I guess you then set the speakers to "Large" or "Full Range" so that they get the entire contents of what's playing.

I guess 45 Hz is about the cut-off frequency for your mains? Or did you somehow manage to high-pass filter your mains without affecting the L and R pre outs?

Note that 45 Hz is pretty low, and this means that the SB12 will work at full power at about 40 Hz and below. In most electric and acoustical music, there is few content below 40 Hz -- for example, the bass guitar can go as low as about 32 Hz, while a contrabass might get down to the higher 20's. But unless you're listening to electronica or lots of organ works, the SB12 will not be that frequently used with a 45 Hz crossover. And seeing your setup, I guess it's not used for home theater at all?

If you raise the LPF cut-off on the sub (say, to 80 Hz for example), they'll play a much bigger part on what you hear. But then you'll be playing 45-80 Hz with both the SB12 and mains, and integration might get trickier there.
post #11940 of 15579
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I too have dual subs and I have toyed in the past with the idea of trying stereo subs, as they're symmetrically positioned close to the L and R mains as are yours. So you just use the L and R pre outs and feed that to the subs with the LPF set at 45 Hz. I guess you then set the speakers to "Large" or "Full Range" so that they get the entire contents of what's playing.

I guess 45 Hz is about the cut-off frequency for your mains? Or did you somehow manage to high-pass filter your mains without affecting the L and R pre outs?

Note that 45 Hz is pretty low, and this means that the SB12 will work at full power at about 40 Hz and below. In most electric and acoustical music, there is few content below 40 Hz -- for example, the bass guitar can go as low as about 32 Hz, while a contrabass might get down to the higher 20's. But unless you're listening to electronica or lots of organ works, the SB12 will not be that frequently used with a 45 Hz crossover. And seeing your setup, I guess it's not used for home theater at all?

If you raise the LPF cut-off on the sub (say, to 80 Hz for example), they'll play a much bigger part on what you hear. But then you'll be playing 45-80 Hz with both the SB12 and mains, and integration might get trickier there.

The schematic below is how my system is connected, using option "B" to feed the Anthony Gallo Sub Amp which powers the secondary voice coil of the 3.5's. With the secondary voicecoil of the 3.5's powered, these speakers are capable of 22Hz. The 45 Hz setting on the SVS subs came from SVS themselves in describing my system to them. The line level out on my i7 is full range. I have no way of adjusting the cut-off frequency within this amp although I can adjust it through the AG Sub amp and the SVS subs. The reason you state above is why I have the subs x-over set at 45 Hz. It may get tricky if set higher. However, I'm not complete tweaking, so if you or others have suggestions and or recommendations, please fell free. I do use the DSPeaker anti-mode 2.0 to calibrate the system for room acoustics.

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