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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 414

post #12391 of 15678
I got my PB12-plus in piano black and holy moly is it beautiful. Here I thought the nonrecessed finishes would bother me compared to the ultra but that's definitely not the case! The finish is absolutely amazing and I never thought a "big black box" could look GOOD.

Can't test it out til christmas though frown.gif Props to my wife for helping me move the thing...she's a trooper smile.gif

In response to some of the posts earlier. I have always liked the ported boxes. Yes, they are large but I've always placed them near a couch so it makes a great "free" end table...especially in piano black. I find they stick out less because they can be hid behind things easier because of their height.
post #12392 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post

Can't test it out til christmas though frown.gif

But.... WHY?

Anyways, congrats on the purchase! I would have actually loved the PB, they look stunning and powerful. Sometimes though you just don't have the floor space *at all*, or the compromises would have been unacceptable. My two Plus cylinders just barely fit into my front stage; any PB would have had to go elsewhere, and we'd have to endure a corresponding diminution of our real estate, which would have meant storing the kid's mittens and scarf inside the port holes I guess.
post #12393 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

But.... WHY?

Anyways, congrats on the purchase! I would have actually loved the PB, they look stunning and powerful. Sometimes though you just don't have the floor space *at all*, or the compromises would have been unacceptable. My two Plus cylinders just barely fit into my front stage; any PB would have had to go elsewhere, and we'd have to endure a corresponding diminution of our real estate, which would have meant storing the kid's mittens and scarf inside the port holes I guess.

Darn Christmas presents!

I understand space can be a constraint...however I really don't consider the footprint THAT big, especially when its substitutes for an end table. The finish on this sub really classes it up to the point where I WANT the show the darn thing off. As nice as the PB10-ISD sounded...it certainly wasn't anything to look at!
post #12394 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post

Darn Christmas presents!

tongue.gif Now you can't watch anything since you'd have to re-watch it with the Plus. *Golf clap* wink.gif

But can't you at least calibrate it so that it's *ready* for Christmas? biggrin.gif
Quote:
I understand space can be a constraint...however I really don't consider the footprint THAT big

No it isn't *that* big and it does make a nice end table indeed. I just don't have the place for end tables frown.gif

You probably figured that already but if you're using the PB as an end table:

  • Put a cloth to protect the finish. Piano black is easily scratched.
  • Don't put fragile things (e.g. photo frames) on it or at least test if the vibrations can make them fall over.
  • I wouldn't place drinks on on it either biggrin.gif Seriously, liquids could find a way behind the driver or the amp and cause mayhem.

Fun fact, I had to stop my GF from putting a drink on top of my cylinder. The port holes there lead directly to the driver! But, she's right: they'd make great cocktail tables otherwise.
post #12395 of 15678
Never had any issues with putting drinks on my PB10-ISD. I imagine I won't have any issues with the PB12-Plus either. The cabinet of the PB10-ISD is absolutely dead. Nothing on it has ever "shimmied" off.

I have already mentioned that I want to get some small table runner or something to put on it to protect the finish.

Just gotta drop it in place where my PB10-ISD is and rerun XT32. Hopefully I will get good results again. I found clumping my measurement points near the two centermost listening positions worked much better than trying to actually do all the individual listening positions.

Hoping for a significant difference. I have no way of telling if I am reaching max output from the ISD as it has no limiter indicator. I've never really felt much really deep bass. Probably most I've felt is during "Immortals". There was some really deep LFE that made me smile but it still felt "tame". The PB10 is technically in a large room because it is open to the rest of the house. XT32 helped cut down the resonances that previously hid my ultra low bass because I had to keep 40Hz or so in check to keep it from being boomy. So hopefully the PB12-plus blows the wall down.
post #12396 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post

Just gotta drop it in place where my PB10-ISD is and rerun XT32. Hopefully I will get good results again.

It should be more or less the same. Just be sure to set all your speakers to small and re-adjust the crossover afterwards.
Quote:
Hoping for a significant difference.

Bass can be affected by lots of things so if the Plus is not offering a significant difference, chances are there are plenty of tweaks you can try to get better bass.

I suggest you try the 16 Hz tuning mode (i.e. keeping one port plugged and selecting the 16 Hz tuning on the amp). You will sacrifice a little bit of max output at 20 Hz, but you'll get extension down to 15-16 Hz, which should bring a significant difference on some content.

Anyway the max output for the current Plus is much higher than for the PB12-ISD. If you hit the limiter on the Plus, at least it will be much louder than the ISD smile.gif
post #12397 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post


[*] Put a cloth to protect the finish. Piano black is easily scratched.
[*] Don't put fragile things (e.g. photo frames) on it or at least test if the vibrations can make them fall over.
[*] I wouldn't place drinks on on it either biggrin.gif Seriously, liquids could find a way behind the driver or the amp and cause mayhem.
[/LIST]

Fun fact, I had to stop my GF from putting a drink on top of my cylinder. The port holes there lead directly to the driver! But, she's right: they'd make great cocktail tables otherwise.

Hey wait just a minute! Our 20-39+ is an excellent multipurpose tool, a "Swiss-army-knife" of Home Theater biggrin.gif
Your GF can party at our place anytime:p
post #12398 of 15678
Anyone knows of a "Bassoholics Anonymous" 12-step program? Looking into 2014, I am contemplating getting a 3rd PB13-Ultra.... eek.gif Man!! this bass thingy is addictive.

" Hi, I am Luis and I am a bassoholic"
post #12399 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyghwayman View Post

eek.gif I always thought it was about sound rolleyes.gif

It's primarily about sound. But don't tell me you would put the best sounding speakers in your house if they had pink polka dots.
While it's first about sound, I think speakers have to look good or atleast be neutral enough to blend in with most decor or design. Personally I think there is something wrong about those SVS speakers, they just don't look right.

The SVS subs on the other hand look great.
post #12400 of 15678
Been hearing people mention the red limiter light? Where can I see it on my PC12-Plus?
post #12401 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Hey wait just a minute! Our 20-39+ is an excellent multipurpose tool, a "Swiss-army-knife" of Home Theater biggrin.gif

That's actually... pretty awesome! cool.gif I thought about just putting a glass surface over the top, but that would block airflow I guess. Your table surface seems to have a bit of clearance for port flow. How did you mount it?

And did you have any problem with spills? tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis5150 View Post

Anyone knows of a "Bassoholics Anonymous" 12-step program? Looking into 2014, I am contemplating getting a 3rd PB13-Ultra.... eek.gif Man!! this bass thingy is addictive.

" Hi, I am Luis and I am a bassoholic"

Well thinking about a third Ultra is a sign indeed that you've got a condition. However, as you probably know, subs are a diminishing return proposition. Adding a third sub to your current duals would no doubt provide even more bass uniformity and a flatter response... but it would not do much for extension, and only bump your max output by (hmmm not sure about that one) less than 2 dB I think. You gain about 4-5 dB every time you *double* the number of subs (or +6 dB if you stack them). So if you're a real bassoholic... adding a third sub would be an incremental upgrade only.

Perhaps you should be heading to the ULF thread and see what can be done for people with your condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Been hearing people mention the red limiter light? Where can I see it on my PC12-Plus?

The Plus has a limiter but no limiter LED. Why? Well... the limiter LED on the NSD series are sometimes called the "upgrade LED" biggrin.gif
post #12402 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis5150 View Post

Anyone knows of a "Bassoholics Anonymous" 12-step program? Looking into 2014, I am contemplating getting a 3rd PB13-Ultra.... eek.gif Man!! this bass thingy is addictive.

" Hi, I am Luis and I am a bassoholic"

Reads like you need to sell your two Ultras and step up to a pair of JTR Cap S2s. If you're going be an addict, up the game.

(i'm looking for a local chapter on "Enabler's Anonymous)

"Hi, I'm BeeMan458 and I'm an enabler."

....tongue.gif
post #12403 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Reads like you need to sell your two Ultras and step up to a pair of JTR Cap S2s. If you're going be an addict, up the game.

(i'm looking for a local chapter on "Enabler's Anonymous)

"Hi, I'm BeeMan458 and I'm an enabler."

....tongue.gif


LOL... good advise. smile.gif You should put that "enabler" line as part of your avatar.
post #12404 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis5150 View Post

LOL... good advise. smile.gif You should put that "enabler" line as part of your avatar.

Thanks, I'll try it out as I'm always happy to encourage. wink.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 12/17/13 at 5:56pm
post #12405 of 15678
Quote:
neut> Anyway the max output for the current Plus is much higher than for the PB12-ISD.

Darn it! I ordered the wrong one! rolleyes.gif will the future PLUS be less then?.. that’ll make me feel better. smile.gif
Quote:
Hey wait just a minute! Our 20-39+ is an excellent multipurpose tool, a "Swiss-army-knife" of Home Theater biggrin.gif

Lol.. That pic is awesome!
Edited by steve nn - 12/18/13 at 3:22am
post #12406 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post


Well thinking about a third Ultra is a sign indeed that you've got a condition. However, as you probably know, subs are a diminishing return proposition. Adding a third sub to your current duals would no doubt provide even more bass uniformity and a flatter response... but it would not do much for extension, and only bump your max output by (hmmm not sure about that one) less than 2 dB I think. You gain about 4-5 dB every time you *double* the number of subs (or +6 dB if you stack them). So if you're a real bassoholic... adding a third sub would be an incremental upgrade only.

Perhaps you should be heading to the ULF thread and see what can be done for people with your condition.


Neutro,

I figured something was odd with my setup and the sudden perceived lack of output out of my PB13-Ultras over the last couple of weeks. So a bit of investigation and it turns out one of the subs was not outputting any sound (the sub in the back of the room behind the MLP...). I traced the problem to the subwoofer cable itself. I swapped it for another and viola!! problem solved.... and BANG!! Now my movie room feels like is going to collapse on me.

So I take that back.... I definitely NOT looking to get another Ultra unless I am looking to do structural damage to my movie room. smile.gif
Edited by Luis5150 - 12/18/13 at 9:58am
post #12407 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis5150 View Post

I traced the problem to the subwoofer cable itself. I swapped it for another and viola!! problem solved.... and BANG!! Now my movie room feels like is going to collapse on me.

Wow it's like getting a free sub smile.gif

But I can relate to that. On the Plus and Ultra subs, when they're turned off and back on, one need to long-press the knob for the amp to initialize (and afterward being able to auto-turn on). I once forgot to long-press the knob on one sub and ran on only one sub for a while.
post #12408 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Wow it's like getting a free sub smile.gif

But I can relate to that. On the Plus and Ultra subs, when they're turned off and back on, one need to long-press the knob for the amp to initialize (and afterward being able to auto-turn on). I once forgot to long-press the knob on one sub and ran on only one sub for a while.

As you can imagine, I am so relieved...

At first I thought... crap, I hope is not the amp plate that went bad. After swapping the sub interconnect and hearing it all work again, it sure gave me a big sigh of relief.

As for getting back to the fun part of this hobby.....I think I'll give "OZ: The Great & Powerful" BD a spin biggrin.gif
post #12409 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

That's actually... pretty awesome! cool.gif I thought about just putting a glass surface over the top, but that would block airflow I guess. Your table surface seems to have a bit of clearance for port flow. How did you mount it?
And did you have any problem with spills? tongue.gif

Glass surface on top would be bad. I made 4 short standoffs from conduit pipe painted black, this raises the underside of the table-top to about 2" above the grill surface.
Ran long wood/drywall screws thru the tabletop (countersunk), and thru the conduit feed-thru/spacers into the top SVS " port baffle" . When everything was secured, I then veneered the top over and finished to match my woodwork in the room. Also replaced the wooden circular base with a steel disk (later replaced with a thicker aluminum disk), this makes it even "more" bottom heavy for more stability. So far no spill/damage issues smile.gif
post #12410 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Sound-wise, it seems there is no difference whatsoever between the PC12-Plus and the PB12-Plus. There was some talk about the cylinders having a bit less internal volume than the equivalent ported boxes, and thus a tad less max output, but after all it seems this is only true for the Ultras.

If this is right, then the only difference between the PB12-Plus and the PC12-Plus is the form factor and finish, which also affects weight of course.

As for the Plus cylinder being a good choice... of course it is biggrin.gif The only drawback would be the height (40" high), but velvet-covered cylinders have a tendency to just disappear in a room.wink.gif

In the Plus and Ultra models is where these differences occur. So the total price of both is cheaper than their boxed format. The NSD both box and cylinder format are identical.

What sense does a PC12-Plus with a substantial amount smaller than the PC13-Ultra, only have 1.5 dB difference in maximum output in the deeper octaves? Any sense.

The numbers thrown the PB12-Plus is 1.5 dB lower than the PC13-Ultra and the PC13 is 1.5 dB lower than the PB13-Ultra.
As I say, it makes no sense but rather with a size less than 1.5 dB exists only between the PC12 and PC13-Plus-Ultra ... If so, would not be worth spending the extra money the PC13-Ultra costs. What I'm trying to explain is that the difference between cylindrical models, the same difference between box models is maintained.

PC12-NSD 0dB (baseline)
PC12-Plus +6 dB / +7.5 dB PB12-Plus
PC13-Ultra +9 dB / PB13-Ultra + 10.5 dB
post #12411 of 15678
I add:

Between PC12 and PC13-Plus-Ultra, a difference of 3.94 inch between the two models.
Those greater than 3.94 inch PC13, major port area, 200w more power and 1 inch higher in the driver, must shed a minimum of 3dB difference between the PC12 and PC13 +. Therefore PC12 PB12 + + and it is not possible to have the same output, because the PB12 + is 1.5 dB inside the PC13.
post #12412 of 15678
Lecter, do you have an actual source about all of that? The Plus models were not tested by Josh Ricci / Data-Bass.com, and the numbers from Audioholics for the DSP version are guesstimates. The only definitive post I could find is this one on HTS in which Ed Mullen states that:
Quote:
The frequency response and max clean output capability of the PB12-NSD and PC12-NSD are extremely similar. You would be very hard pressed to tell them apart in an ABX comparison.

Ditto for the PB12-Plus and PC12-Plus. Only in the Ultra line does the box version have a slight max output advantage at the deepest frequencies, and that is due to its 1 ft^3 larger internal enclosure volume.

Unless you have other sources, I read that as "both the NSD and Plus cylinders have the exact same performance as their ported box counterparts, but the Ultra cylinder has a bit less enclosure volume and thus a tad less output".
post #12413 of 15678
I have a PC 13 Ultra, purchased new earlier this year, and a PC 12 NSD that is about four years old. They are used in a room that is 21 x 13 x 8 ft. and wonder if I would be better off selling the NSD and just using the Ultra. Not being evenly matched I would think the Ultra would be better off on it's own. I use some Gemme bookshelf speakers which are pretty decent so upper bass is not bad. I just figure if the NSD is not allowing the Ultra to produce it's full output I would probably see an overall improvement in this case with one being better than two. Any thoughts?
post #12414 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmbuff2 View Post

I have a PC 13 Ultra, purchased new earlier this year, and a PC 12 NSD that is about four years old. They are used in a room that is 21 x 13 x 8 ft. and wonder if I would be better off selling the NSD and just using the Ultra. Not being evenly matched I would think the Ultra would be better off on it's own. I use some Gemme bookshelf speakers which are pretty decent so upper bass is not bad. I just figure if the NSD is not allowing the Ultra to produce it's full output I would probably see an overall improvement in this case with one being better than two. Any thoughts?

Or you could sell the PC12-NSD and use the funds towards a second PC13-Ultra. I have been a big advocate of multiple subwoofers, I am never going back to a single sub setup.
post #12415 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Lecter, do you have an actual source about all of that? The Plus models were not tested by Josh Ricci / Data-Bass.com, and the numbers from Audioholics for the DSP version are guesstimates. The only definitive post I could find is this one on HTS in which Ed Mullen states that:
Unless you have other sources, I read that as "both the NSD and Plus cylinders have the exact same performance as their ported box counterparts, but the Ultra cylinder has a bit less enclosure volume and thus a tad less output".


Already news had Ed Mullen's comment, but there is something that does not fit me and there's something not finished Ed Mullen said. I do not usually doubt the word of SVS, but it is not possible for the PC12 +, this so close to the PC13-Ultra when in PC13 volume enclosure is significantly larger, with greater area of port, more power and larger drivers . Do not add up the numbers! (Plus and Ultra always maintain a difference of 3dB at 15Hz-40Hz range respectively are "PC" or "PB") Nor do I will add up the prices.

I am determined, then it's not worth the extra expense in the PC13 model ... There PC13 measurements but can not remember where.
post #12416 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmbuff2 View Post

I have a PC 13 Ultra, purchased new earlier this year, and a PC 12 NSD that is about four years old. They are used in a room that is 21 x 13 x 8 ft. and wonder if I would be better off selling the NSD and just using the Ultra. Not being evenly matched I would think the Ultra would be better off on it's own. I use some Gemme bookshelf speakers which are pretty decent so upper bass is not bad. I just figure if the NSD is not allowing the Ultra to produce it's full output I would probably see an overall improvement in this case with one being better than two. Any thoughts?

That's a pretty good question actually. The reason why matched subs matter is the following. If they are calibrated to contribute equally at the listening position, then typically the lesser sub will reach its limits first, producing either unwanted noises, or just stopping getting any louder, thus breaking the balance. This is true on a per-frequency basis, hence why subs with the same frequency response are favored.

The NSD and the Ultra have the same frequency response profile when the Ultra is in 20 Hz tune, but is capable of more output (9 dB more if Lecter's numbers above are accurate). In 16 Hz tune, the Ultra would totally dominate under 20 Hz, with the NSD having negligible output under 18 Hz anyway.

So right now, if both subs are contributing equally, you could set your Ultra to play at the level of the NSD and gain around 4-5 dB vs the maximum NSD output (which is the typical gain from running dual matched subs; you could gain up to 6 dB by having both subs very close together). But, the Ultra alone is capable of running 9 dB above the NSD. So it's capable of more output than dual NSDs. In that regard, selling the NSD makes sense.

But then you'd lose your dual setup, which also have other benefits (more uniform bass around the room, smoother frequency response). So if the listening levels you're accustomed to are okay right now and the NSD is not hitting its limits, then theoretically, replacing your Ultra with another NSD would yield more or less the same results. However this is neglecting two aspects. First, the Ultra has other features than output (e.g. variable tuning, PEQs on the amp, etc.) that you might want.

Second, the premise of all of this may be flawed: it is possible to have a setup in which subs don't work equally hard at all. For example, if your Ultra is relatively far and the NSD is near-field, the situation is not as clear since it takes much less power for the NSD to achieve the same SPL as the Ultra. In this case, if you want to squeeze the maximum performance out of that setup, one should have both subs producing about the same SPL at the listening position when they're at their limits. As SPL drops as 1/distance this would mean getting the Ultra about 3 times as far from the listening position than the NSD (not counting room effects), which is entirely feasible.

Of course if you have the budget, getting two Ultras would solve your problem elegantly biggrin.gif
post #12417 of 15678
neutro - thank you for taking the time to explain the pros and cons of this type of setup. I have both subs near the corners on either side of a large screen, and they are pretty well stuck where they are. I have the Ultra at 20 hz tune and the gain is usually anywhere from -22 to -28 or so. usually around -24 depending on the source - movies or concerts but the amount and level of LF varies quite a lot so I am adjusting gain fairly often The NSD tends to have the gain setting quite low, it gets overly noticeable quite quickly. I have played with the crossover but usually leave it close to the lowest setting and I have found them to work well together, and would probably miss it's ability to help fill the room - it does help. Keeping the Ultra restrained seems to help the two produce more enveloping low frequencies in the room. I should keep it as it was just a thought as I will not be upgrading, the Ultra was my last fairly expensive expenditure ( after a JVC X35B pj ). Silly me for even thinking it!
post #12418 of 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmbuff2 View Post

I have the Ultra at 20 hz tune and the gain is usually anywhere from -22 to -28 or so. usually around -24 depending on the source - movies or concerts but the amount and level of LF varies quite a lot so I am adjusting gain fairly often

Wait. Are you talking about the sub's gain here or your AVR main volume level? I guess you're speaking about the main volume level. Depending on your room size, this is indeed not very demanding for the subs. Depending upon the specifics of your AVR, there may be features to compress dynamic range so that you don't have to change volume so often during playback.
Quote:
I have played with the crossover but usually leave it close to the lowest setting

Are you talking about your AVR's crossover setting? If you have a bass management-capable AVR (which is probably the case!), then you should disable any crossover or low-pass filter on your sub and simply let the AVR control the crossover. Typically a 80 Hz crossover is a good starting point; though if you have small satellites, a higher crossover might be needed.

If you feel that may help, you can list your gear (speakers and AVR), and we can walk you through the optimal settings.
post #12419 of 15678
I'm a bit behind on the whole room correction abilities of my Emotiva UMC 200 - I used it once and then Emotiva had a software update I tried using but could not seem to get it running on my laptop, never mind down loading it to the unit. The newer firmware was supposed address some issues and allow the room EQ software to be more accurate.Maybe I will look into it, but the UMC 200 did have the subs at 80 I believe, I just played with it a bit but do find I have to lower or increase gain somewhat as some material is just too bass heavy, but as we know room interactions and the two subs themselves will introduce some issues. Just for the record my equipment is as follows:

Emotiva UMC 200 pre processor
Myryad MA 360 3 channel amplifier ( mains and center speakers )
Rotel 2 channel amplifier ( surround speakers )
Oppo BDP 95 blu ray player
Gemme Tonic G3 main speakers
GoldenEar Superstat 60 center speaker
Axiom QS8 surround speakers
SVS PC13 Ultra & PC12 NSD subs


I use the 5.1 analog inputs on the Emotiva from the Oppo. Hdmi for video is direct to tv or projector. The sub out from the Emotiva goes to the Ultra and a splitter sends another cable from there to the NSD.
Edited by filmbuff2 - 12/22/13 at 12:38pm
post #12420 of 15678
I just got the Pb12 nsd and am loving it, just wondering if there might be something up with the power on this sub. I read lots of reviews from others saying that they set there gain on the sub to 12oclock and there sub trim on the avr in the negatives and have tremendous output from there pb12... I set my crossover on my avr at 100 all speakers set to small, gain on the sub to 12 oclock run auto calibration and my avr will set the trim on the sub to about neg 4 and I get very little output from the sub, even when i set the trim up to +15 which is maxed out I get very little output. SVS says to just run the gain maxed out and just set the trim on the avr to taste, when I do this I get alot of output, but wondering why I'm not experiencing the same output as others. I have done the sub crawl and really tweaked all settings, but cant get the big output untill its just about maxed out on the gain does this sound right. Dont get me wrong I love the sound of this sub but feel its lacking when the gain is around the halfway mark! Thanks in advance for any comments
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