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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 238

post #7111 of 10624
2/23/12 at 1:19pm
yes, the pb10 is sadly missing from their lineup. Most people are looking for subs in the under $500 range, and in the past, I would say "spend a bit more than that Klipsch, Energy or whatever and get a SVS....it will give you true 20Hz performance"

SB10 would be a good sub for those looking at desktop or bedroom systems.

And yes, some kind of statement sealed sub is still something they should consider...something that will compete against the best boutique subs available (and give the more "industrial" high output subs some competition.
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post #7112 of 10624
2/23/12 at 1:29pm
I think the missing PB10 is the biggest gap in their lineup. They have essentially given that whole segment away to HSU. IMO, it's good business to offer a good quality, entry-level sub. It gets people into the "family" and tends to lead to eventual upgrades in the "family" when conditions allow.
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post #7113 of 10624
2/23/12 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I listen to more music now that I have a good sub (also upgraded to decent tower fronts so that helps a lot) and I really appreciate what the SB12 does in that department. I wonder if using one of SVS's ported sub (in a small living room) would result in a *degradation* of quality for music. I'd certainly like going even deeper than the SB12 for movies and games but probably not at the price of boomy/muddy bass in music tracks. I know that you can hardly describe any SVS product as muddy but the doubt persists.

I own the PC12-NSD and from my vantage point it sounds VERY GOOD with music.....and I upgraded from a sealed Velodyne sub which was known for its musicality. I am COMPLETELY SATISFIED with the PC12...it rocks when it comes to movies (I had never experienced such "sub-sonic" levels with my Velodyne F1000) and it blows me away on music with its excellent precision and tightness.

The only real problem I'm experiencing (and it is a REAL PROBLEM!) is that I'm so tempted to revisit my whole CD collection (over 400 CDs) and Blu-ray/HD DVD collection (well over 100) to see what I've been missing all these years!
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post #7114 of 10624
2/23/12 at 6:57pm
I've heard a few comments, but I'm still curious...

A single PB13-Ultra sales for around $2K. If you purchased two of the SB13-Plus units, it would be a little more money like $2.4K. Looking at the specs of both models and in using two individual subs place apart from each other (say to the outside of the front speakers, what might the resulting performance be like?

My best guess is that with two subs you would even out any nulls in the room. The gentle rolloff of the SB13s at 20hz would be much less of an issue having two units running. The SB13s would be clean for music and may even edge out the the PB13-Ultra in HT use. This would be neat to see tested out. Anyone with a spare $5K in their pocket?

What might you guess the performance outcome would be?
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post #7115 of 10624
2/23/12 at 9:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klips View Post

I've heard a few comments, but I'm still curious...

A single PB13-Ultra sales for around $2K. If you purchased two of the SB13-Plus units, it would be a little more money like $2.4K. Looking at the specs of both models and in using two individual subs place apart from each other (say to the outside of the front speakers, what might the resulting performance be like?

My best guess is that with two subs you would even out any nulls in the room. The gentle rolloff of the SB13s at 20hz would be much less of an issue having two units running. The SB13s would be clean for music and may even edge out the the PB13-Ultra in HT use. This would be neat to see tested out. Anyone with a spare $5K in their pocket?

What might you guess the performance outcome would be?


I was told by ed at svs that it would take 4 sb13+ to equal a pb13 ultra at max output at 20hz. The sb13+'s would have more output above 40hz. I think this is all without room gain factored inn.
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post #7116 of 10624
2/23/12 at 9:24pm
Hey,


I currently have a PB12-NSD, which is my 2nd real sub I own. First was a BIC F12. I love the sound of the SVS but am curious about the HSU 15H.

Has anyone of you had both subs and can give me their opinion on each? Could you also please tell me the approximate room size you have had either sub playing in?

Very much obliged,


Ray
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post #7117 of 10624
2/24/12 at 7:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

I own the PC12-NSD and from my vantage point it sounds VERY GOOD with music....

(...)

I am COMPLETELY SATISFIED with the PC12...

To be honest I was not expecting anybody to say they're disappointed with their SVS. You got to have some sort of advantage with the PC12 or else nobody would be building those over small sealed boxes like the SB12.

Quote:


The only real problem I'm experiencing (and it is a REAL PROBLEM!) is that I'm so tempted to revisit my whole CD collection (over 400 CDs) and Blu-ray/HD DVD collection (well over 100) to see what I've been missing all these years!

That I can relate to It seems that even among styles I normally don't like, I'm finding superb basslines. Normally in my car, when I'm alone, I just select metal & techno songs but now that I listen to more music in the living room, I'm looking for more ambiant music. Bass guitar sounds like the player is in my living room.

Feel free to share your discoveries, I like finding new songs that are particularly interesting to try with my new sub. On that topic, you guys all ought to listen to the Solaris movie original soundtrack by Cliff Martinez. *goose bumps*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

I was told by ed at svs that it would take 4 sb13+ to equal a pb13 ultra at max output at 20hz. The sb13+'s would have more output above 40hz. I think this is all without room gain factored inn.

Wow. Ok so the SB13-Plus is not in the same league at all for the lower-bass.
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post #7118 of 10624
2/24/12 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Wow. Ok so the SB13-Plus is not in the same league at all for the lower-bass.

Not at all; from my conversations with Ed when I was replacing my PB10-NSD, the SB13 would have been a wash in terms of output at 20Hz and 25Hz. Just goes to show the advantage of a large ported enclosure.
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post #7119 of 10624
2/24/12 at 8:20am
I know I should work on room treatment first to try to get a more even bass around my living room. But I have very little leeway in terms of what I can do without desecrating the living room decor.

So I looked at various sub EQ strategies. I don't have EQ on my SB12 and I don't have the necessary hardware to run REW. I've seen lots of people with the Anti-Mode 8033 here and there, and a few reviews.

However the reviews typically only show graphics of the improvements. They're rather nice, but ultimately, what I'd like to have is a first-hand account of how well it works. Does it help marginally or is it night and day? The device is rather pricey at almost 400$ (and hard to find used in Canada). So do we get 400$ worth of improvement? I'm interested in any feedback on this.

Another possiblity seems to use REW in conjunction with an Behringer DSP1124P feedback suppressor, which has a configurable filter bank. The unit is cheaper than the Anti-Mode (110$ now at Amazon.com) but as I understand it, EQ'ing a room is not straightforward at all, involving multiple parameter configurations + measurements cycles to get it right, along with getting the right measurement gear (SPL meter + decent sound card). The Anti-Mode seems to be mostly automated and hassle-free in comparison.

Any comment on that? Is that a must-buy or should I save my money towards a sub upgrade to a model including DSP EQ?
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post #7120 of 10624
2/24/12 at 8:27am
I'd first start by measuring what you're working with now.

Also, what are you using (if anything) for room correction software (Audyssey, etc), as that usually will help tame peaks.
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post #7121 of 10624
2/24/12 at 8:34am
I guess this is a good advice. Maybe using REW with my receiver's calibration mic and the onboard sound card would give a rough idea of the problem. REW's documentation recommends using an SPL meter + a better external sound card but the gear they recommend is about 300$ in itself.

I have a Pioneer VSX-1020 so that's Advanced MCACC. Doesn't do anything for the sub except adjust the overall volume. I think I can average mesurements over 3 locations though. But no EQ below ~64Hz and I'm pretty sure even the 64Hz EQ does not apply to the sub output.
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post #7122 of 10624
2/24/12 at 8:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I guess this is a good advice. Maybe using REW with my receiver's calibration mic and the onboard sound card would give a rough idea of the problem. REW's documentation recommends using an SPL meter + a better external sound card but the gear they recommend is about 300$ in itself.

Don't know about the calibration mic that came with your receiver, but a Rat Shack meter would suffice when coupled with the correction table.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...22#post5272422

Stinks that the receiver doesn't correct the sub since the low end is where the most help is needed typically.
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post #7123 of 10624
2/24/12 at 9:10am
Yeah come to think of it my receiver's calibration mic may not be reliable below 60Hz.

Everybody's talking about that RadioShack SPL meter but it seems hard to find in practice. At least in Canada. SVS's exclusive distributor sells it for 60 bucks + taxes + shipping. Not sure if it's a good price. Seems like a must-have though.

Don't you have to get some kind of higher-end Audyssey option (MultiEQ XT?) to be able to EQ the sub? But I think you're right, Audyssey seems to be much better suited to calibrate sub frequencies. However, I'm not in the market for a new receiver for a while...
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post #7124 of 10624
2/24/12 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by raehza View Post

Hey,


I currently have a PB12-NSD, which is my 2nd real sub I own. First was a BIC F12. I love the sound of the SVS but am curious about the HSU 15H.

Has anyone of you had both subs and can give me their opinion on each? Could you also please tell me the approximate room size you have had either sub playing in?

Very much obliged,


Ray


Please excuse my shameless bump.


Ray
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post #7125 of 10624
2/24/12 at 9:48am
Ok, a non-audio question: Is it possible for one person to carry the SVS PB12-Plus up a flight of stairs on his own? I suspect not, but I'm hoping... I've already used my friends to help me carry up a TV, sofa, and other furniture upstairs, and don't really want to bug them again.
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post #7126 of 10624
2/24/12 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I know I should work on room treatment first to try to get a more even bass around my living room. But I have very little leeway in terms of what I can do without desecrating the living room decor.

So I looked at various sub EQ strategies. I don't have EQ on my SB12 and I don't have the necessary hardware to run REW. I've seen lots of people with the Anti-Mode 8033 here and there, and a few reviews.

However the reviews typically only show graphics of the improvements. They're rather nice, but ultimately, what I'd like to have is a first-hand account of how well it works. Does it help marginally or is it night and day? The device is rather pricey at almost 400$ (and hard to find used in Canada). So do we get 400$ worth of improvement? I'm interested in any feedback on this.

Another possiblity seems to use REW in conjunction with an Behringer DSP1124P feedback suppressor, which has a configurable filter bank. The unit is cheaper than the Anti-Mode (110$ now at Amazon.com) but as I understand it, EQ'ing a room is not straightforward at all, involving multiple parameter configurations + measurements cycles to get it right, along with getting the right measurement gear (SPL meter + decent sound card). The Anti-Mode seems to be mostly automated and hassle-free in comparison.

Any comment on that? Is that a must-buy or should I save my money towards a sub upgrade to a model including DSP EQ?

If you can find one (they have recently been discontinued) the SVS ASEQ1 is a superb piece of kit which will have a totally dramatic effect on your bass. I used mine for a couple of years, in a very difficult room, and only sold it on when I bought an Onkyo 5509 which has Audyssey XT32, which is in effect the same for the bass frequencies as the EQ1. The difference the EQ1 makes is astounding. I have described it many times in these forums as the single best piece of equipment I have ever bought. An alternative would be any AVR that features XT32.

I have not used the AntiMode but have heard good reports about it - but it is not as sophisticated as the EQ1. Google will help you find further info on each and to draw comparisons.
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post #7127 of 10624
2/24/12 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Yeah come to think of it my receiver's calibration mic may not be reliable below 60Hz.

Everybody's talking about that RadioShack SPL meter but it seems hard to find in practice. At least in Canada. SVS's exclusive distributor sells it for 60 bucks + taxes + shipping. Not sure if it's a good price. Seems like a must-have though.

Don't you have to get some kind of higher-end Audyssey option (MultiEQ XT?) to be able to EQ the sub? But I think you're right, Audyssey seems to be much better suited to calibrate sub frequencies. However, I'm not in the market for a new receiver for a while...

The rat shack meter is a pretty useful tool for certain; price sounds about right.

As far as Audyssey, MultEQ and up (MultEQ XT, XT32) will apply filters to the sub. Only 2EQ doesn't do anything with the sub.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq
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post #7128 of 10624
2/24/12 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beezar View Post

Ok, a non-audio question: Is it possible for one person to carry the SVS PB12-Plus up a flight of stairs on his own? I suspect not, but I'm hoping... I've already used my friends to help me carry up a TV, sofa, and other furniture upstairs, and don't really want to bug them again.

Please don't attempt this....it's much too nice of a sub to risk it tumbling down a flight of stairs. Even if you can shoulder 125 pounds, the cabinet is BIG and would be really tough to keep a handle on.
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post #7129 of 10624
2/24/12 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beezar View Post

Ok, a non-audio question: Is it possible for one person to carry the SVS PB12-Plus up a flight of stairs on his own? I suspect not, but I'm hoping... I've already used my friends to help me carry up a TV, sofa, and other furniture upstairs, and don't really want to bug them again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

Please don't attempt this....it's much too nice of a sub to risk it tumbling down a flight of stairs. Even is you can shoulder 125 pounds, the cabinet is BIG and would be really tough to keep a handle on.

I'm going to agree with trolly on this. Is it possible, sure, is it recommended, no. I'm a big guy (6'5", 260 lb's) and I'd still prefer to have a hand for going up more than a couple of steps. The PB+ has rounded corners, is a big box, and if the finish is like my Ultra's, a very smooth surface. In other words,its not just the weight, but the size and surface that cause issues.

Buy your friends a six pack of whatever and a pizza, its cheaper than a new sub or a hospital bill.
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post #7130 of 10624
2/24/12 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

The rat shack meter is a pretty useful tool for certain; price sounds about right.

As far as Audyssey, MultEQ and up (MultEQ XT, XT32) will apply filters to the sub. Only 2EQ doesn't do anything with the sub.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq

True, but XT32 is a significant step up from XT. 512x filter resolution in XT32 vs 128x in XT. The difference is very, very audible.
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post #7131 of 10624
2/24/12 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by raehza View Post

Please excuse my shameless bump.

Sorry Ray, you may want to allow more time for someone having heard both subs to manifest himself.

[quote=kbarnes701;21692245]If you can find one (they have recently been discontinued) the SVS ASEQ1 is a superb piece of kit which will have a totally dramatic effect on your bass.
[quote]

On one hand this is encouraging (i.e. sub EQ'ing is not subtle) but on the other hand, the SVS AS-EQ1 is indeed discontinued, hard to find even used, and was selling new for as much as my sub. I'd certainly like EQ'ing my sub but I'm not prepared to double my investment just for that. That's why a used Anti-Mode or Behringer unit may be interesting.

So the AS-EQ1 was basically a DSP with Audyssey MultEQ XT (the doc doesn't seem to mention XT32) and a mic? Maybe I should just pile my money up for a receiver upgrade then.

Quote:


I have not used the AntiMode but have heard good reports about it - but it is not as sophisticated as the EQ1. Google will help you find further info on each and to draw comparisons.

It's more like a flame war between the Velodyne SMS-1, SVS AS-EQ1 and Anti-Mode. The Anti-Mode is significantly cheaper, so its lack of sophistication might be acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

The rat shack meter is a pretty useful tool for certain; price sounds about right.

Maybe I should begin with that and see what I find using REW.

Thanks for your opinions guys.

A last question: do you know if any of these corrections (not only measurements) has been implemented as a software on a standard computer CPU? I'm wondering if an HTPC could do the job instead of a DSP.
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post #7132 of 10624
2/24/12 at 11:10am
neutro, I'm currently using XT32 for my Ultra's from my 4311 receiver, the difference between no-eq and good-eq is very noticeable and worthwhile. Before the 4311 I was using Audyssey XT (much older version in my old 4306) and an Anti-Mode 8033. I was just splitting the signal from the Anti-Mode to both subs, which are equidistant from the MLP. The set up worked very well, but XT32 does seem to be, at least subjectively, a little better sounding to my ears. The main difference for me with XT32 was how much better it handled the 5 other speakers than XT did.

The SVS AS-EQ1 used a different hardware setup, but had the same processing power as XT32. XT32 was a name released after the AS-EQ1, but if you check the threads for the AS-EQ1, the Audyssey thread, or the Audyssey Sub Equalizer you'll see they all did 512x processing, dual subs with individual distance/level settings, etc. They were good units, but when Audyssey changed their algorithms to require less MIPS (how XT32 does its thing on a shared processor), the market shifted.

I've run several types of sub-eq's over the years: SMS-1, BFD w/REW, Anti-Mode, Audyssey XT and XT32, R-DES, and more. My top two favorite in regards to response, convenience, and subjective & objective results are XT32 and then the Anti-Mode.
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post #7133 of 10624
2/24/12 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If you can find one (they have recently been discontinued) the SVS ASEQ1 is a superb piece of kit which will have a totally dramatic effect on your bass.

On one hand this is encouraging (i.e. sub EQ'ing is not subtle) but on the other hand, the SVS AS-EQ1 is indeed discontinued, hard to find even used, and was selling new for as much as my sub. I'd certainly like EQ'ing my sub but I'm not prepared to double my investment just for that. That's why a used Anti-Mode or Behringer unit may be interesting.

IKWYM but it's worth it. It doesn't matter what the sub cost if it is performing at half its potential because of the problems in the room itself. And you could use the EQ1 with a sub that costs thousands of dollars if you wished and it would still make it sound better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

So the AS-EQ1 was basically a DSP with Audyssey MultEQ XT (the doc doesn't seem to mention XT32) and a mic? Maybe I should just pile my money up for a receiver upgrade then.

Yes, you are correct. The EQ1 uses XT32 technology (512x filter resolution for the bass). The benefit of upgrading to an XT-32 equipped AVR is that you would a) get a better AVR and b) you would benefit from XT-32 across the entire frequency spectrum. When I went from my XT-equipped Onkyo 5007 + EQ1 to the XT32-equipped 5509, the difference was not subtle. It was not as great as adding the EQ1 to the 5007 by any means (most benefit is felt in the bass region) but there were easily discernible sonic improvements wrt to better imaging, better separation, better resolved detail etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

It's more like a flame war between the Velodyne SMS-1, SVS AS-EQ1 and Anti-Mode. The Anti-Mode is significantly cheaper, so its lack of sophistication might be acceptable.

Yes, I have heard good reports about the Anti-Mode and for the price it seems like a good unit. I am 100% sure the EQ1 is better, but then it is also twice the price. The EQ1 is highly sought after now - I sold mine within about an hour of advertising it - and to a buyer in a different country!

Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

A last question: do you know if any of these corrections (not only measurements) has been implemented as a software on a standard computer CPU? I'm wondering if an HTPC could do the job instead of a DSP.

Not AFAIK. I also use an HTPC and I'd have been all over that if it were possible!
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post #7134 of 10624
2/24/12 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

The set up worked very well, but XT32 does seem to be, at least subjectively, a little better sounding to my ears. The main difference for me with XT32 was how much better it handled the 5 other speakers than XT did.

Exactly what I found too. My bass was already up to XT32 standard thanks to my EQ1, but XT32 improved the *overall* sound too, as you found.
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post #7135 of 10624
2/24/12 at 11:37am
Thanks a lot for you recommendations Snowmanick. I guess the BFD w/REW way is not the easiest as it's not automatic. However it may be the cheapest -- I just saw a BFD for 70$ on CanuckAudioMart. Did you have any success at all with that? As for the Anti-Mode, where do you get that exactly? From the european web site?

As I'm doing signal processing for work (although not audio nor real-time), I'm trying to see how hard it would be to simply grab the input from a sound card, apply an appropriate FIR filter and output it. If it runs fast enough without causing improper delay or using too much CPU, that might be a fun project to work on. Of course I'd have to be able to measure the effect before/after anyway.

All that may be best discussed in another thread I guess, but I wanted some inputs from fellow SVS owner.
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post #7136 of 10624
2/24/12 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

IKWYM but it's worth it. It doesn't matter what the sub cost if it is performing at half its potential because of the problems in the room itself. And you could use the EQ1 with a sub that costs thousands of dollars if you wished and it would still make it sound better.

Makes lots of sense... But then again, finding an AS-EQ1 seems to be the biggest hurdle then.

Quote:


Yes, I have heard good reports about the Anti-Mode and for the price it seems like a good unit.

If I can get a used one really cheap I might jump on that but they seem in rather high demand too. At close to 400$ new, it seems I would better put that aside for a receiver with XT32.

Quote:


Not AFAIK. I also use an HTPC and I'd have been all over that if it were possible!

Quick search shows that http://convolver.sourceforge.net/ can apply FIR filters to sound being played by various means in Windows. But I can't tell if it's possible to apply that to a captured input.

JACK (jackaudio.org) is now available for Windows and there seems to be plugins and/or developement hooks to perform arbitrary processing. So, not a finished product but that may be interesting.

I'll let you guys beta-test my project before I commercialize it and become a rich man

But first I'll need a mic :P
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post #7137 of 10624
2/24/12 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post


I was told by ed at svs that it would take 4 sb13+ to equal a pb13 ultra at max output at 20hz. The sb13+'s would have more output above 40hz. I think this is all without room gain factored inn.

Wow, I would have guess it to come out much closer. PB13 is such a huge unit. I was hoping that 2 of the SB13s would be close enough. I like the idea of tight bass, but my HT is in the biggest room in the house with high ceiling.

So would everyone agree that a single PB13-Ultra is the way to go versus (2) SB13-Pluses?
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post #7138 of 10624
2/24/12 at 5:45pm
I need some opinions.
I'm about to purchase a sub for my HT which is in a 12 x 15 x 7.5 room that is completely open on one end to another 850 sq ft. (same ceiling height).
I've been looking at the PC12-NSD and the Plus (also the Hsu VTF3 Mk4)
I have an older set of the Paradigm Monitor 9 V2 as my mains. Receiver is an Onkyo 709 and I currently am using a Velodyne ULD 12 that is still going strong since the late 80's.
I would like to know if the Plus is overkill for a small room like this or should I get the NSD or VTF3?
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post #7139 of 10624
2/25/12 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klips View Post

I like the idea of tight bass, but my HT is in the biggest room in the house with high ceiling.

So would everyone agree that a single PB13-Ultra is the way to go versus (2) SB13-Pluses?

Yes, get the PB13-Ultra. The SB's would get swallowed up in a large, open room with a tall cieling.
If it was primarily for music the SB's may do fine, but not trying to reproduce content below 25 hz in that space.
Tim
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post #7140 of 10624
2/25/12 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klips View Post

Wow, I would have guess it to come out much closer. PB13 is such a huge unit. I was hoping that 2 of the SB13s would be close enough. I like the idea of tight bass, but my HT is in the biggest room in the house with high ceiling.

So would everyone agree that a single PB13-Ultra is the way to go versus (2) SB13-Pluses?


Even given Ed's advice I went with 2 sb13 pluses. I love them and they destroy my bedroom.

If I were you I would do 2 pb12 pluses if you can afford it and have the space.

What Ed told me was in max output. The sb+ can go plenty low, mine is flat to about 20hz in my room, it just is not going to play 110db at 20hz which is fine with me since I don't listen that loudly.
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