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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 269

post #8041 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Just for the record, that last backslash should be a slash. The correct link is here.
They mention a -3dB point of 34 Hz, which is the same as my previous crappy 8" Energy sub that I could lift with one hand. This is for the ForceField 3, not the 4, but given those measurement, and given the ForceField 4 is about the same price as the PB12, I think the choice is obvious. Mind you, I'm not saying the ForceFields are crap. But comparing GE's specs with hometheater.com's measurements, it certainly smells bad.
The rest of Warpdrive's comment is spot on. Yeah, if you can fit two PB12-NSDs in your budget, that would totally rock.

I am thinking that the pb12 will kick with my digm very well.
post #8042 of 15683
Bought a SB13 Plus and am pretty happy with it smile.gif Not quite the SPL I was hoping for, but digs really low and really articulates where my old PB12 plus 2 got a bit muddy. I still want another or the PB13 Ultra for the room pressurizing bass.
post #8043 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkTactics View Post

Bought a SB13 Plus and am pretty happy with it smile.gif Not quite the SPL I was hoping for, but digs really low and really articulates where my old PB12 plus 2 got a bit muddy. I still want another or the PB13 Ultra for the room pressurizing bass.

What size is your space?
post #8044 of 15683
post #8045 of 15683
Attached is the in-room frequency response of my single SVS PB12-NSD in a 2700 cu ft. room. Measurements were taken at ~ 10 ft from the sub. The signal from the measurement software went only to the sub and bypassed the receiver.

286

It's clear that I have a room mode at 45 Hz and a null at 63 Hz. But why am I getting so much sound above 100 Hz? I had the lowpass filter knob set to "disable," which I had thought was the correct setting for integration with the AVR.

If I had run the signal (10 Hz to 200 Hz sweep) through the AVR, perhaps I would have seen the AVR's rolloff?

Any insights?
post #8046 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Wood View Post

Attached is the in-room frequency response of my single SVS PB12-NSD in a 2700 cu ft. room. Measurements were taken at ~ 10 ft from the sub. The signal from the measurement software went only to the sub and bypassed the receiver.
286
It's clear that I have a room mode at 45 Hz and a null at 63 Hz. But why am I getting so much sound above 100 Hz? I had the lowpass filter knob set to "disable," which I had thought was the correct setting for integration with the AVR.
If I had run the signal (10 Hz to 200 Hz sweep) through the AVR, perhaps I would have seen the AVR's rolloff?
Any insights?


What is it you're trying to achieve?  If you want to see the sub's response as it is when listening, you need to send the signal through the AVR, with Audyssey engaged if you have it (assuming you have calibrated for the sub) but with Dynamic EQ turned off. Your graph shows the sub in the room in an entirely false way - you will never listen to it that way so why measure it that way (unless you are trying to see it's 'raw' response in your room - hence my opening question). Audyssey will tame that peak but it won't take care of that huge null. You'll have to move the sub around to try to find a place where the null is tamed. Or get a second sub - that's a good way to tame room modes.

post #8047 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

SB-12NSD review is up at AH.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/sb12-nsd-subwoofer

That review is quite good considering it was done in a 4000-cu.ft. room. The effect of the DSP boost around 24 Hz is also quite clear on various measurements (high-output compression, group delay, distortion) so it's quite clear that the extension of this sealed sub is in part due to electronic boost. The true shape of the sub's frequency response is pretty interesting too. Anyway, the quasi-anechoic measurements show an even greater 6 dB flatness zone that what SVS quote, which is pretty impressive (21-300 Hz!). In-room response is even better in my experience in small rooms. In short, the SB12 shows its limits mainly if high output is demanded. This matches my experience quite well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Wood View Post

But why am I getting so much sound above 100 Hz?

Well the PB12-NSD does have a +/- 3dB range that extends up to 150 Hz if you disable the low-pass filter. Higher than that you have lots of bumps and nulls so it's harder to see the natural decay of the sub.
post #8048 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


What is it you're trying to achieve?  If you want to see the sub's response as it is when listening, you need to send the signal through the AVR, with Audyssey engaged if you have it (assuming you have calibrated for the sub) but with Dynamic EQ turned off. Your graph shows the sub in the room in an entirely false way - you will never listen to it that way so why measure it that way (unless you are trying to see it's 'raw' response in your room - hence my opening question). Audyssey will tame that peak but it won't take care of that huge null. You'll have to move the sub around to try to find a place where the null is tamed. Or get a second sub - that's a good way to tame room modes.

Good question. First, I'm trying to pick the best crossover point for my mains. Given that, it makes no sense to run the signal through the sub alone. So, my plan is to methodically run a series of sweeps from 15 to 200 Hz only, all through the AVR, as follows:
- Mains only (no crossover or bass management in AVR)
- Sub only (just disconnect the main speaker)
- Mains + sub, no Audyssey (separate run for each crossover point, from 40 Hz to 80 Hz)
- Mains + sub, with Audyssey (separate run for each crossover point from 40 to 80 Hz)

My mains will play down to 40 Hz, so I will be trying a variety of crossover points.

Once I figure out the best crossover point, my next order of business is to get rid of the worst room nulls, probably by adding a second subwoofer. In terms of WAF, I'm likely to have more luck finding a place for a second sub, such as SB12, than I am to find a home for a bass trap capable of absorbing 60 to 70 Hz frequencies.

Does this make sense?
post #8049 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Wood View Post

Good question. First, I'm trying to pick the best crossover point for my mains. Given that, it makes no sense to run the signal through the sub alone. So, my plan is to methodically run a series of sweeps from 15 to 200 Hz only, all through the AVR, as follows:
- Mains only (no crossover or bass management in AVR)
- Sub only (just disconnect the main speaker)
- Mains + sub, no Audyssey (separate run for each crossover point, from 40 Hz to 80 Hz)
- Mains + sub, with Audyssey (separate run for each crossover point from 40 to 80 Hz)
My mains will play down to 40 Hz, so I will be trying a variety of crossover points.
Once I figure out the best crossover point, my next order of business is to get rid of the worst room nulls, probably by adding a second subwoofer. In terms of WAF, I'm likely to have more luck finding a place for a second sub, such as SB12, than I am to find a home for a bass trap capable of absorbing 60 to 70 Hz frequencies.
Does this make sense?

I'd suggest that there is another objective for you - finding the best spot for your sub in your room. Since you have measurement ability, you can move your sub to different places in the room and measure each to find which position gives the best graph. In doing this, you can run the signal through the sub alone (bypassing the AVR). Once the best position is found for the sub, you can then run Audyssey.

To pick the best crossover, I don't think you need to run through all the sweeps as you've mentioned above. After picking the best spot for the sub and running Audyssey for your system, do a sweep for mains+sub with Audyssey on and run for each crossover point.
post #8050 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

SB-12NSD review is up at AH.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/sb12-nsd-subwoofer

Nice review. I wonder what the difference is if any between the latest SB12 and the prior unit with the inverted dust cap on the woofer. Anyone know? It seems the previous model was a little more heavy as well.
post #8051 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

+1 for the hobby thing. It seems it's a guy thing too. Colleagues of mine are deep into bicycling, owning each three or four multi-thousand dollar bikes and spending above a thousand a year in maintenance. Some guys I know are into power tools -- and I think they use them much less than the aforementioned bikes. Others build $10,000 gaming rigs. Other upgrade their cars. Strangely this obsessive behavior is not very frequent with ladies (although they have other very efficient way to blow through their bank account).
Anyway at some point this obsessive drive for improvements and perfection is one of the driver of societal improvement as well so it's not just wasted efforts. Yet at some point if it's not done in a controlled fashion it can become financially hazardous. Two JL F212? That's just nuts tongue.gif

Had to smile when I read this one. I've long had a cycling thing going...only having 3 or 4 bikes must be because they have WAF to contend with or ran out of room smile.gif Surprises a lot of people how much bikes and parts can cost (especially if you take them to the shop for maintenance). I'm trying to resist spending as much on my audio visual needs and so far have done fairly well...although I have spent more on the a/v stuff than the bikes the last few years wink.gif Guys do like their toys...gals spend money in different ways but seem to do just fine, just differently.
post #8052 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Wood View Post


Good question. First, I'm trying to pick the best crossover point for my mains. Given that, it makes no sense to run the signal through the sub alone. So, my plan is to methodically run a series of sweeps from 15 to 200 Hz only, all through the AVR, as follows:
- Mains only (no crossover or bass management in AVR)
- Sub only (just disconnect the main speaker)
- Mains + sub, no Audyssey (separate run for each crossover point, from 40 Hz to 80 Hz)
- Mains + sub, with Audyssey (separate run for each crossover point from 40 to 80 Hz)
My mains will play down to 40 Hz, so I will be trying a variety of crossover points.
Once I figure out the best crossover point, my next order of business is to get rid of the worst room nulls, probably by adding a second subwoofer. In terms of WAF, I'm likely to have more luck finding a place for a second sub, such as SB12, than I am to find a home for a bass trap capable of absorbing 60 to 70 Hz frequencies.
Does this make sense?

 

There's a lot of information about setting the best crossover points in the Official Audyssey Thread Setup Guide, linked in my sig. Look for the document hosted in the first post that describes some useful techniques. Doing what you are doing is very worthwhile - getting the subs and mains in phase at the crossover does make a good difference.

 

The second sub will make it easier to get the smoothest in-room response too. Jchong also makes a good point about finding the best position in your room for the current single sub.

post #8053 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post


To pick the best crossover, I don't think you need to run through all the sweeps as you've mentioned above. After picking the best spot for the sub and running Audyssey for your system, do a sweep for mains+sub with Audyssey on and run for each crossover point.

+1 to that.

post #8054 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

I'd suggest that there is another objective for you - finding the best spot for your sub in your room. Since you have measurement ability, you can move your sub to different places in the room and measure each to find which position gives the best graph. In doing this, you can run the signal through the sub alone (bypassing the AVR). Once the best position is found for the sub, you can then run Audyssey.
To pick the best crossover, I don't think you need to run through all the sweeps as you've mentioned above. After picking the best spot for the sub and running Audyssey for your system, do a sweep for mains+sub with Audyssey on and run for each crossover point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There's a lot of information about setting the best crossover points in the Official Audyssey Thread Setup Guide, linked in my sig. Look for the document hosted in the first post that describes some useful techniques. Doing what you are doing is very worthwhile - getting the subs and mains in phase at the crossover does make a good difference.

The second sub will make it easier to get the smoothest in-room response too. Jchong also makes a good point about finding the best position in your room for the current single sub.

Good advice. The sub currently is "WAF located." That said, there are two more spots where it might could go, but it will take some negotiating. I could explain that moving the sub would avoid the need to buy a second one, but I eventually do want a second one, so you see my dilemna. smile.gif

There is some good info in the Audyssey 101 thread that I had not read regarding crossovers -- thanks for the link. Audyssey sets my mains to 40Hz, which is consistent with what the manufacturer says they'll do in-room.

FWIW, here is the sweep I ran last weekend with Audyssey on & off at 70Hz crossover. I will run additional sweeps at lower x-overs to see what looks the flattest. In the graph, the green line is the sub alone, the purple is Audyssey off, and the blue line is with Audyssey on. As you can see, Audyssey did a good job of taming some of the peaks, but couldn't do much about the nulls. Audyssey also created a boost around 150 Hz that could be problematic. There's also a peak at the crossover point of 70Hz that Audyssey cut. The picture doesn't reflect it, but smoothing was set to 1/24th octave.

Ken
338
post #8055 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

My very first plan was to buy a second PB12-NSD, but then I decided that I wanted to go bigger (15" or so) and more powerful as well as duals, so that ruled out dual PB12s. Also, I didn't find my BASH-equipped PB12 to be all that tight, so I don't think duals of that version would have given me the tightness I wanted...although it most definitely would have provided a lot of grunt!

I've found that my dual PB12-NSD's are as tight as any of the sealed subs that I've owned in the past.
Also they produce more "slam" than all those sealed subs put together.
post #8056 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

I've found that my dual PB12-NSD's are as tight as any of the sealed subs that I've owned in the past.
Also they produce more "slam" than all those sealed subs put together.

I understand that the newer PB12nsds with the sledge and new driver are much tighter and more linear the the older Bash models. Do you own the current version of these subs?
post #8057 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


The second sub will make it easier to get the smoothest in-room response too. Jchong also makes a good point about finding the best position in your room for the current single sub.

It amazes me that people continue to buy single subwoofers. frown.gif

Dual subs are not a luxury, they're a necessity! smile.gif
post #8058 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post

I understand that the newer PB12nsds with the sledge and new driver are much tighter and more linear the the older Bash models. Do you own the current version of these subs?

Yes I do.
post #8059 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

It amazes me that people continue to buy single subwoofers. frown.gif
Dual subs are not a luxury, they're a necessity! smile.gif

It's funny to say but in real life you always have to balance several factors including floor space, budget, other priorities, etc. For me just deciding to allocate upwards of $500 for a sub was a significant barrier but I'm glad I made the jump and bought an SVS sub instead of some crappy retail sub.

That being said, I'm slowly trying to see what will be my next home theater / audio expense and I'm considering several possibilities. If I decide to invest more in sub(s), I can either sell my current SB12 and save up for either a Plus or an Ultra, or I could try adding a second SB12.

I *think* the second SB12 would be the wisest path for me as having a kid prevents me from listening to movies at very loud levels, and I think uneven bass distribution is perhaps the most noticeable improvement I could make for my everyday listening needs. But investing that much money towards just "more of the same" does not sound as fun as upgrading to a (single) monster sub, even though that would be mostly for bragging rights.
post #8060 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

But investing that much money towards just "more of the same" does not sound as fun as upgrading to a (single) monster sub,
even though that would be mostly for bragging rights.

It's not "more of the same."

By adding another identical SVS sub, you'll smooth out the bass response in your HT
and increase output.
That's something you won't get with one monster sub.
post #8061 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

It's not "more of the same."
By adding another identical SVS sub, you'll smooth out the bass response in your HT
and increase output.
That's something you won't get with one monster sub.

You're right and smoothing out the bass response is probably the most pressing issue right now (as pressing as HT issues go). Yes it will add output -- a bit more headroom which would be welcome as I recently saw the limiter LED flash for the first time (my daughter sleeps tighter now that she's older biggrin.gif). But as I understand it it will be nowhere near what, say, a single PC12-Plus would provide, which would cost about the same as two SB12s. Considering I don't need much more output and actually need smooth response, I *see* the appeal of dual SB12s.

On another note, I'm actually not sure if it would be easier on the WAF to have a second SB12 or a replacement. Considering the location of the sub, it's used as as small table so a larger PB would act as a slightly larger table -- probably quite acceptable (though the main problem seems to be depth for the larger boxes). In fact the biggest problem would be my investing more money into my home theater instead of more boring parts of our house...
post #8062 of 15683
although getting 2 or more identical subs at the same time is ideal, thats not always a feasible path. why would i settle for two pb12-nsd's, when i know what i ultimately want is two ultras, but just cant afford both at once right now? also, you can get great response from one sub. maybe not in as many different listening positions, but im really only picky about my main one, so thats something else to think about. Not to mention, the more expensive subs usually sound better especially with music. Dedicated home theater? yeah, sure i might settle for two lesser subs, but with a mixed use living room, im fine with one better one.
post #8063 of 15683
You've got a point, assuming that you know you'll end up with Ultras one day. This is the way I rationalized getting my tower speakers: knowing that I will end up with some in the next year, the deal I got probably was the best I could have so it would lower my total cost even though I had just bought the SB12.

The tricky part is the part where you assume you'll get the gear anyway. Then it makes sense to purchase it as soon as possible (to enjoy it sooner and longer). But few people are prepared to admit that there is also the possibility of not upgrading. I know lots of people have *lots* of money to spend on toys in this forum but there's always at least an option cost. The money spent on Ultras can also be spent a lot of interesting ways. So when you're not sure you'll ever spend that much money on subs, it's tempting to consider a less drastic upgrade, such as adding a second SB12.
post #8064 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

although getting 2 or more identical subs at the same time is ideal, thats not always a feasible path. why would i settle for two pb12-nsd's, when i know what i ultimately want is two ultras, but just cant afford both at once right now? also, you can get great response from one sub. maybe not in as many different listening positions, but im really only picky about my main one, so thats something else to think about. Not to mention, the more expensive subs usually sound better especially with music. Dedicated home theater? yeah, sure i might settle for two lesser subs, but with a mixed use living room, im fine with one better one.

It never ends.

Once you get the two Ultra's, you'll find that you'll then want something better, like dual Submersive HP subwoofers.
post #8065 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

It never ends.
Once you get the two Ultra's, you'll find that you'll then want something better, like dual Submersive HP subwoofers.

your right! so should i have bought two ultra at once or one Submersive? See what I mean?! I bet you if you take a look at these folks that buy two lesser subs so they can have duals, youll see that many of them ended up upgrading anyway. i wonder..............
post #8066 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

It never ends.
Once you get the two Ultra's, you'll find that you'll then want something better, like dual Submersive HP subwoofers.

Ha, ha........tell me about it. I purchased my first Ultra from a gentleman that upgraded to a JTR Captivator.

He purchased his Ultra back on Oct/11 and I'm hoping it will stay at my home longer than that.....eek.gif
post #8067 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

your right! so should i have bought two ultra at once or one Submersive? See what I mean?! I bet you if you take a look at these folks that buy two lesser subs so they can have duals, youll see that many of them ended up upgrading anyway. i wonder..............

It's ALWAYS better to run identical dual subwoofers, rather than one big expensive sub.
There's no substitute for smooth bass response in your HT.
post #8068 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

It's ALWAYS better to run identical dual subwoofers, rather than one big expensive sub.
There's no substitute for smooth bass response in your HT.

Well, the room itself plays a role here to consider as well. So, if a person need/wants only one subwoofer for his/her needs, then he or she pretty well might shoot for a top of the line subwoofer. So what is wrong with that?
post #8069 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Well, the room itself plays a role here to consider as well. So, if a person need/wants only one subwoofer for his/her needs, then he or she pretty well might shoot for a top of the line subwoofer. So what is wrong with that?

In my situation, I'm already getting good frequency response with just one sub. I have a minor null at 50Hz, but with careful placement, I minimized that at my two primary seating locations. I already have enough output so getting a second sub would be overkill
post #8070 of 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

In my situation, I'm already getting good frequency response with just one sub. I have a minor null at 50Hz, but with careful placement, I minimized that at my two primary seating locations. I already have enough output so getting a second sub would be overkill

Nice to hear that. May I ask what subwoofer do you have?
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