Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 297

How big is the room?

As an aside. Percy Jackson is a must own for svs sub owners. Could be my favorite lfe Ulf movie right now. Wow!

Hahaha. It's so cool to see you buggin' out, Brian.
Last night I treated a guest to Cabin In The Woods on blu-ray, that's another good one. Then we kind of passively watched and listened to Melancholia on Netflix. Lars von Trier isn't for everybody but the LFE in that movie was a huge surprise, especially considering it was a chopped-down Netflix stream.
If you dig action, let me recommend The Raid: Redemption (DTS-MA/original language with English subtitles/original soundtrack). Phenomenally choreographed, charmingly low-budget movie with a surprisingly good quantity of well-mixed, well-conceived bass content (admittedly, graphs seem to show that it's not a ULF super-heavyweight.) Actually the audio mix on The Raid is brilliant both inside and outside the bass region.
Edited by SaviorMachine - 11/18/12 at 5:51am

Haha right? Love this friggin sub!

guys im thinking about buying an svs pb12, is the best bang for the buck at 769 right? do they have black friday sales usually? also, compared to the EPIK subwoofers, the PB12 is probably the better sub to go with right?

You comparing the Epik Empire? or Legend? The Empire will be a better performer, not sure about the Legend altho I'd think it'd be close. The delivered price of the PB12 (NSD?) is in between those two in any case.

So we just provided them a quick way to diagnose deformed grilles? Well I hope the problem is that simple to fix; but I'm surprised the grille could get that deformed. I'd use one to deflect sledgehammer blows if it comes to that.
Good to know, it's already on my to-watch list.
Yeah even very intellectual movies sometimes include surprises. I saw a bit of "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" -- it's a moving movie but very very far from the average basshead flick -- however there's nice LFE when the guy imagine himself going underwater. Not sure if I'll watch Melancholia but I'm glad to see that good LFE is now found in a wide range of movie styles. As for broken Netlfix stream... doesn't change much for LFE, which are just very slow variations in the waveform. It's not demanding at all in terms of encoding, in contrast with reproduction.
Sweeeet. It's already on my to-watch list but I'm just waiting for an occasion to watch it -- let's just say that it's not my GF's favorite genre. The new wave of Thai action movies is as you say at the same time breath-taking and charming. The first Ong Bak, and Tom Young Goong, both with Tony Jaa, comes to mind.

Well read what Brian thought of his PB12-NSD [edit: since the last few pages of this thread]. There is no doubt it's an awesome sub and I'm not aware of any bad review. Alas, SVS very seldom have sales except for new product launches and B-stock. However as for SVS being the best bang for the buck... Currently the Subwoofer recommendation by pricepoint thread seems to have reached a concensus on SVS: they make superb subs but they no longer provide the best performances for the price. However this may be dependent upon where you live. I think in Canada, SVS is the biggest bang for the buck for example.

Also, there are numerous other advantages of going with SVS that are not directly linked to money or SPL. Finish, overall quality, DSP and limiter, form factor (e.g. cylinders), metal grille, service, generous warranty, return policy and upgrade policy for example. As for Epik, the Empire, for $800, offers an absolutely incredible value. It's simply a great sub for the price according to about everyone on the above thread. (That being said, it's $800 *plus shipping*, which may be around $100 depending where you live).

However you can compare both the PB12-NSD and the Epik Empire on Data-Bass. What you'll see is quite interesting. The Empire trounces the PB12-NSD in the mid-bass department, which will give it more "slam", which is expected with a sub having dual 15" and 50% more power than a single 12" driver. However the PB12 does achieve the same performance (and even a bit more) at 20 Hz. Below the PB12's tuning point (19 Hz) the Empire wins again due to its sealed alignment, but that may or may not be audible depending on room gain in your location.

hey neutro, i crossed the epik out of my list, im torn between the pb12 and the HSU vtf3 MK4, can u please give me an insight on which one is better like u gave me on the pb12 vs the epik? i really dont know which one is better, according to data, which is the better subwoofer. loudness is really a matter for me as i wont be really CRANKING it but i want high quality, which will provide it better, the SVS or HSU?

The good news is that you can't go wrong with either of the Epik, Hsu or SVS subs I know I'm not being helpful here. But keep in mind that while I have been a very keen student lately, I'm still rather new-ish to the sub world and have never heard any of those. In fact, few people have ever compared those in the same room -- that's why byos (bring-your-own-sub) are very interesting (see Archaea's meetings for example).

All I can say is that the Hsu VTF3 Mk IV is also a very applauded sub. What I like to most with it is that it features "hybrid" (aka variable) tuning, which is found on the Plus and Ultra subs from SVS. This allows you to trade output and low-end extension (i.e. you can choose to tune the Hsu sub at 16 Hz instead of 20 Hz at the cost of volume at 20 Hz). Also they offer 7 years of warranty in the US, which is extremely good. It's a bit bigger and heavier than the PB12-NSD. Not sure if the shipping is included in the price (SVS is).

As for quality, I think it's fair to say the 3 subs you're considering / were considering are excellent, but I'm not sure for example which one will offer the least distortion at high volume. All I know is that SVS are reputed for their good behavior at high volume. I had trouble finding reviews with hard data on the Hsu VTF3 Mk IV -- its bigger (but IMHO uglier!) brother, the triangular-ported VTF-15H, has an extensive review at Audioholics. Turns out it's a great sub but they felt the small-ish amp limited its low-end extension. I think it uses the same amp as the VTF3 Mk IV; incidentally it was the same amp as earlier SVS product (BASH 350 W), which SVS replaced by Sledge 400W amps beacause, I think, of reliability issues. Then again with a 7 years warranty you'd be covered anyway. Here is the PB12-NSD review at Audioholics for comparison purposes. In the end their scores are almost the same but I found the PB12 review a bit more enthusiastic, but maybe it's just me.

EDIT: ... and why did you cross the Epik Empire out of your list? I'm curious, because if I was in the US, the temptation to upgrade my SB12 to the Empire would have been intense. BTW the Empire is often said to be awesome with music --because of all that mid-bass output--, and very good with movies, while the ported SVS are in comparison often aid to be very authoritative for LFE in movies, and very good with music. Why is that (and is it true at all) is subject to intense debates in various thread right now.
Edited by neutro - 11/18/12 at 7:33pm

the epik is an overkill for my situation and i also read that they have reliability issues..

See, the thing with HSU is that it has all that tuning stuff on the back panel which im NOT going to use, i just want to connect my subwoofer, set the 3 knobs on the back of the sub to the correct settings and run auddysey on my receiver and forget about it u know.. im not gonna tune the sub etc etc, does the HSU have some advantage over the pb12 that i dont see?

2 years more of warranty, $119 less right now unless shipping is not included in Hsu's prices, optional finish... Don't see any other advantage, and the SVS has counter-advantages too.

The warranty on the driver is 2 years longer than SVS's, but the warranty on the amp is 3 years less. I have no idea where the enclosure falls into Hsu's warranty coverage (mentioned as it is the only other major component). Also, HSu doesn't include shipping in the prices, they quote a $99 S/H fee in addition to the sub's price. With the S/H in mind, they are pretty close price wise.

For a higher price, the Hsu's are available in a very nice finish, if that makes a difference. I don't know if the side firing driver makes creates any issues placement-wise, but if you are trying to squeeze the sub into a small spot, it may.

Both are good choices.

What are the counter advantages of the svs?

Both are good products. SVS has a more substantial warranty on the product (except for the woofer), with the 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. SVS also offers a trade up program, which several members have used, which limits some of the losses one may face when they come down with upgraditis. Front firing design (if that is an issue), with a pretty sturdy grill, which is helpful if the sub is in a high traffic area and/or you have kids/pets.

I'm sure there are other pluses/minuses that others can point out as well.

but i mean in terms of sound quality the pb12 nsd will sound better than the HSU vtf3 MK4 right? which is a better overall subwoofer? i keep hearing that SVS subwoofers have a "tight" bass that no other subwoofer has..

Extension of energy into the lower frequencies.

Ed,

When was the limiter first implemented? Is it a forgone conclusion that if my amps ars DSPs, then I have this protection? My PC13s hail from August 2011. Thanx!

not by much though.

my reading for sine wavs with a single pb12 in a 13x17x8 open floor room is:

65db 10-12hz
70db 12-14
75db 14-16
85db 16-20
85db >20hz

this is at calibrated levels not max output

As Snowmanick mentioned, warranty is 7 years on the driver, 2 years on the electronics (amplifier) versus 5 years on everything for SVS.

No question. Each of the three offer their own value propositions and represent good buys in my book depending on what you're looking for.

Not necessarily. The PB12-NSD's performance is pretty much picture perfect within its performance envelope, no question about it. However, I seriously doubt listening to the two, you'd be able to discern a huge SQ difference between them, assuming both are properly set up (which is at least half the battle for achieving good quality bass). About the only point where differences may crop up is at the limits; I'm unsure of how tight the limiters are on Hsu products currently, but they're bulletproof on the SVS products; of course the Hsu may also deliver some extra output in return (based on the results of the Outlaw LFM-1 EX; we can only hope that Josh gets his hands on a Hsu or three to test some time in the not too distant future).
Edited by Steve1981 - 11/19/12 at 6:39am

Hi Vader -

Correct - all Sledge amps have DSP controlled limiter/compressor.

... and another (shameless) plug for the second-to-none SVS customer service... I asked Ed before I left for work this morning, and Ed's answer beat me to work...! Thanks, Ed...

Hi Brian -

We're actively working on your grille issue and I'm gload Doug was able to talk with you about this - a phone call sure beats back/forth emails sometimes!

The FR for the 1000-series does not denote max output capability (this is the case with all of our FR graphs). We typically obtain FR measurements in the 90-95 dB range at 2M GP - this ensures a sufficiently high S/N ratio for decent data acquisition.

Funny how the latter value additions never quite get accounted for in such threads. Those were the big reasons I went with the PB13U over the FV15HP, in spite of the additional cost.

If you could expand on your above as to how "not by much though," is not an advantage? I'm not banging on your above, it just doesn't make sense to me as to a response to the question I responded to. If you will, I'm not a basshead in the truest sense of the word. Pretty much, my interests drop out regarding anything <16Hz.

My personal concentrations are on THD at lower frequencies and higher output, evenness of frequency response on both ends of a curve (very important) and what's what with what in the 16Hz to 25Hz range; ported vs sealed vs overall performance characteristics. My opinion, based upon published online data I've found (data-bass and other Googled up sites), price/performance wise, the PB12-NSD does all of this (my opinion), in all of these categories, brilliantly.

Just to be sure my intentions are not misunderstood, at no time am I taking a whack at Hsu subs as going up the price performance ladder, my next recommendation would unequivocally be a Hsu, ULS-15.

Isn't that where it counts the most?

How much stress can a Woodchuck chuck when a Woodchuck is called on to chuck real wood?

When the peddle hits the metal and the boots hit the ground running, who's the real top dog and the class act we all want playing the game?

-

I dont take it as a bash. and i think it was misread as n"not by much" meant the vtf3 goes deeper than the pb12 but if thats true "not by much" I am going by charts they have. since I ma showing spl levels for very low frequencies it show s that the pb12 can and does go well below its tuning point of 19hz (albeit low spl's) I was simply stating that the pb12 digs deep, just as the claim that the vtf3 digs deep (or claims to as I havent heard one )

Depends on who you ask I guess. Certainly I prefer SVS's method of gracefully bowing out before audible distortion; however, not everyone sees things that way. As I've said before though, if I'm giving a demo to a friend, I prefer the sub that will benignly compress over the sub that will potentially chuff, distort, bottom out, etc even if that means sacrificing some output capability. An extra 6dB of output isn't going to make up for bad behavior in my book.

LOL

Bad subwoofer, bad subwoofer.

correct and just about all demo material with 10-12hz sound is mixed with upper hz bass, so it isnt as noticeable. as long as you are getting decent output from those frequencies, it will be enjoyable...in my case a 65dz level is MORE than acceptable...just look out when i get a dual setup

I think most of the claims that SVS (or Hsu, or Outlaw, or Epik, or other ID sub manufacturers) have better performance than "no other" is a bit of a stretch, and is also directed toward subs that you can find for the same price at retail stores. As I understand it, the last decade was very interesting in audio, as competitors to major brands appeared, from the audio enthusiast crowd, that sold their products directly to the customer on the internet, bypassing distributors and retailers, and thus offering unequaled bang for the buck. SVS were one of the first (if not the first) company to do that. But other followed suit with the same standards. So while you can be assured that SVS products are top notch, I can't say that they're better than any other -- especially without having heard them. But they're all applauded, thus why I said you can't go wrong with either.


Wow you managed to make some FR measurements! Great. So you're flat all the way down to about 16 Hz in room? That's pretty impressive. I couldn't find FR for the Hsu VTF-3 Mk IV, but judging by the VTF-15H which was measured by Audioholics, I'm not sure it reaches as low as the PB12-NSD. Anyway the two will be so close that the decision will probably be based on something else: personal preference, aesthetics, service, warranty, etc.

I for one would choose the PB12 but that may be because I'm simply more familiar with SVS products. But also because of the warranty, service, return and upgrade policies, and the Sledge amp.

They can be really important. For me the grille alone was one deciding factor when I bought the SB12. I don't want to spend almost $800 on a sub to have my 2-yo daughter kick the woofer, or the cleaning lady accidentally bump the vacuum in it. I upgraded to cylinder subs (down-firing) for the same reason. Another deciding factor was the gloss black finish -- and it's one of the reason why I didn't upgrade to the PB12-NSD. I prefer the cylinder's velvet than the black vinyl -- although I haven't seen the vinyl in person.

I don't know much about the performance of limiters in other subs in the same price range, but it's very reassuring that SVS'es are that good. It's certainly one of the advantages the PB12 has over other subs in terms of audible quality, which is not captured by the price quote and the raw SPL measurements.

So in short lamonsasa: you can buy the PB12-NSD in peace knowing that it will be one of the best purchase of your life. Anyway you clearly seem set on it, and seeking out final reassurance on your decision. Consider yourself reassured.