Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 311

Maybe you can ask him in a PM. Your contributions on here are garbage and a pain in the rear to wade through.

Guess what. There's a feature called "Block" that way you can ignore all of my post and don't have to wade through any of them.

That's a great idea!! The most informative post you made yet...

LMAO, awesome!

Auditor55, I think my lines quoted here about sums up my reasoning. Also, note that I said that there was an issue with my PB12 driver with tremendous fluttering noise at very low frequencies. Another important thing that I liked about SVS newest Sledge Amps is the DSP with all of their options to get optimal perf for different situations. That P-EQ was a god-send in helping me getting the better performance I have so far.

Yes there was b/c I've had one for over 5 years now It has long been discontinued. Just google it and you'll see a bunch of stuff. Here is an example: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/svs/pb12-nsd/prd_154580_2741crx.aspx

Well put By all accounts (including talking to the SVS guys) the SB13-ultra should be a noticeable step up from the older PB12-NSD in terms of speed, transient response, distortion, and accuracy particularly above 30hz. The only area where the PB12-NSD may have the advantage is with ultra low frequencies in home theater applications (sub-25hz). I was thinking that the better driver, 3x increase in amp power, and several years of learnings from an engineering standpoint would compensate somewhat for that discrepancy to a degree that it wouldn't be a problem for me and my tastes. But of course, I wouldn't know until I tried

I wasn't aware that SVS had put out a down-firing 320W version of the PB12-NSD. I've only been aware of the front-firing versions, starting with the 325W version I owned for a while. I apologize for my error.
Edited by eljaycanuck - 12/6/12 at 2:40pm

Sounds like you still have problems of integration.
I have a SB12-NSD also a comparison and a PB12-Plus DSP is the day to night (can not compare). The plus is much much cleaner, much more precise and more if you have it properly EQ and infinitely more powerful.
So surely until you find the optimum point and EQ and seek the correct phase, probably not find the true potential.

The SB12 is a good sub ​​for its size, but has a much darker sound and slow, are not comparable.

One can also say that the bonus to be much cleaner, may be interpreted as missing something, but really this should sound sounding like everything.

Have Audyssey?

Could not get the second PC12-Plus tonight due to conflicts in family schedule I guess this will have to wait until tomorrow evening.

Idealty, I really know what you're talking about. I think I got extra lucky dropping my SB12 in that corner. I put my PC12-Plus in the same corner and it's not the same. Tonight I still tweaked its position -- pushing it back into the corner, I'd say 3-4 inch back, and the patterns of nulls and peaks in the room changed again. Bass is now much stronger in the listening position. Content that I thought previously devoid of good bass (I'm slowly watching the Evangelion movies, 15 min at a time) suddenly became much more interesting. My point is simply to keep tweaking as it's really surprising how small differences in position close to a corner can affect bass around the room. I really hope the second sub will help get a more uniform bass across the room. I'm too postponing my evaluation of the Plus because I can't go through a whole movie crouched close to the window where the bass lies

By the way, I sold my SB12 to a colleague and friend of mine. He's coming from my own previous 8" 60-watts sub in a large room (he he), which he'll give back to his father to help with tinny sound from a soundbar. So he just set up the SB12 and seems completely floored by what he got He seemed tired, listening to music until 2 AM.

That's what I don't understand... without EQ and crossovers, how don't you create a huge bump in the overlapping region between the mains and the sub? Anyway, I can always try it just to see if I like the result, but he seems adamant that 3 is the lowest acceptable number of subs

A bit... but now I'll just wait and integrate the second sub before going further I think, even though it would really be interesting to try getting the max out of one sub before anything else.

I'll have power to spare for sure with two Pluses in a small room. I noticed the Plus sounded surprisingly... tight, I guess, is the word; whereas I was expecting to be swamped in a sea of very deep bass. I think the sheer output in the mid-bass region creates this feeling, where room modes are not as spaced out. If I can just get the deep bass there too, I'm sure the mix will be pure pleasure. But I'm still tweaking...

You're right: maybe I just like the "darker" sound of the SB12, but in fact I'm just accustomed to it. As long as I can get that "greasy bass" feeling down below 40 Hz, I'll be quite happy with the clean punch it gives at 80 Hz.

No, alas. I have a Pioneer AVR with MCACC, which EQs all channels down to 63 Hz but not the sub. I'm EQing manually with REW, a RadioShack SPL meter and the Behringer "BFD" DSP1124p. With lots of success actually: I can really notice how better the sub sounds with the peaks tamed.

Can anyone comment on the music characteristics of the the PB-13ultra's versus the sealed versions?

The series plus ultra and have the same sonic signature only one with a little less than maximum output (and perhaps was to putializar serve more people, as they are both very similar subs).

Now, the difference with the brother sealed in this case SB13 or SB13-Ultra-Plus, the latter two may have a better response (cleaner and PB older siblings, are slightly darker). If your production needs are high, play better performance and more older siblings at frequencies from 40 to 15Hz. On the contrary.

Basically cleaning the seals is due to a lower capacity in the lower frequencies, revealing its natural curve of response, half serious, making this stand and its signal pareza cleaner. (This will be the strongest point) anyway who wants to know how sounds and has a sealed SVS Ultra or Plus, you can connect the plugs and change your Roll-Off and try if you like (more or less will yield similar to its

It must be said that, as the seal you increase production, increases much more distortion and driver angst, compared with their older siblings ported.

The seals may have some advantage at frequencies below 15Hz, where the fall is much softer than the PB, but I do not think that will be very useful, because you can get production in both designs, not very useful.

Left more pictures of my new beast and my corner of music, movies and games.

I wonder if I have trouble finding the sweet spot for my cylinder sub (even if I place it right where my SB12 was) because the "effective" position of the radiator is not the same as with a box cabinet. With the driver firing down, its center is a bit lower than where the SB12's center was; and the ports being very high, when they come into play at very low frequencies, the effective location of the sub is not the same at all I guess.

The sub is not the problem, I can confirm that. In some spots in the room -- alas not in the main listening positions -- bass is very deep and guttural, and if I sit back at the listening position, I loose most of it. Tweaking the sub's position (but keeping the same EQ for now) I'm able to improve things a bit. But I hope the problem is not the height of the cylinder as the second one is coming home tonight...

maybe you should revert to the ole sub crawl. and maybe one of your 4 location spots will be the winner?

I'm not putting my 70 lbs, 40 inch-tall cylinder on my couch (I guess I could put it on the ground where the couch is though, which is an idea, but I normally the sub should be at ear's height doesn't it?)

Well I only have four possible locations. Surprisingly, whereas there's only 4 configuration to test when you have 1 sub, there are 6 possible ways of placing two subs in 4 locations assuming the subs are identical:

1. 1 & 2
2. 1 & 3
3. 1 & 4
4. 2 & 3
5. 2 & 4
6. 3 & 4

I won't try location 4 unless I'm basically hopeless though so that leaves positions 1-3, and then there's only 3 possible configurations (1 & 2, 2 & 3, 1 & 3). This I can probably test in an evening; however adjusting gain and phase for those 3 would still be a hassle. I just hope the first one I try will give satisfactory results!

I hope so for you too :0 and I forgot to tahnks you for the Bday wishes...and yes we DO have ton in common your my Canadian clone haha

Try lying one horizontally... you could even use it as a headrest for the couch.

Well fun stuff for the weekend, finally found an old school radio shack 30-2055 digital SPL meter, and did some testing with REW.


I figure some people with XT32 Audyssey might find it interesting. I'm running dual SVS SB-12NSD from a Denon AVR-4520ci. I mentioned earlier in this thread I picked the location because during the sub crawl I couldn't find a single area that had a smooth response. So I tried to add them in such a way they compliment each other like a piecewise function. 1 sub handles lower frequencies, one handles higher, and I was hoping Audyssey would blend them together.

Plus, it's pretty cool HOW WELL Audyssey XT32 does it's job.

Disclaimer: I'm just learning REW, so give me a break, but I did calibrate my mic between levels to get some usable numbers.
I'm not sure if the SPL good or bad, but it's somewhat flat and works well. Could be I ran a -12db SPL from the measurement tool. Maybe when I set the receiver to 0db I needed to set the signal in the measurement section to 0db also?


FIRST, Audyssey XT32 ON, 4 different tests, at 0db, -10db, -15db, -20db at the receiver, calibrating the mic between every run




Audyssey XT32 OFF, 4 different tests, at 0db, -10db, -15db, -20db at the receiver, calibrating the mic between every run




And probably the most interesting, this was to answer my own question earlier if DUAL medium grade subs are worth it over a single ultra subwoofer.

Audyssey XT32 ON with the dual subs at 0db, versus sub1 with Audyssey OFF, versus sub 2 with Audyssey OFF
This shows the piece wise function the best, and overall response.





With this new tool, I'm avoiding subcrawl with just my ear. Tomorrow I will redo the test areas again instead with a mic to figure out overall the BEST place for the sub woofers based on the curves.

According to Geddes:

The bass (50hz-150 hz modal region) in typical rooms is dominated by the room which really swamps it resulting in peaks and nulls all around the room. While it may seem intuitive to flatten the response by EQ, the nature of the problem does not lend itself to simple EQ. After all, the room modes are position dependent. EQ may flatten the response in one position but creates more problems in other positions. The moment the listener moves by a few inches the simple EQ is a disaster.

so since you like to criticize everything. do you have anything valuable to bring to the table in this regard, or are you going to end it the typical way you do.

How does getting personal with me address the matter that Mr. Neutro brought forward concering the Earl Geddes approach.

^^^^i;m just saying if you have a solution or suggestion please post it. unlike neutro who brings suggestions and info. i have yet to see this from you, and all of the other threads you stake out.

kamiraa, great results. Is there any smoothing on your graph's? Based on those it looks like you are in a roughly 3db window all the way to 20hz, which is awesome. As you mentioned, there is nothing like actual evidence on the benefits of duals in a room (and of XT32). So I take it you are not going to try to upgrade to the single Ultra now, or are you thinking dual Ultras?

Subwoofers are like the old Lays potato chip ad, "Betcha can’t eat just one”

This is probably a really dumb question, but I have to aske....I'm using the SPL meter and it says in the PB-12 book to set my sub in the AVR to -3, which I did, then it says to set volume to 0-0db...Now Isn't that like an extreme volume? That seems to be the highest my avr goes to or am I missing something...I did this many years ago when I bought my first sub, but I don't remember what level to set the volume when running the test tones off the THX Optimizer test...

Rick

Hi Snowmanick,

No smoothing on any of the graphs. I think the most impressive thing shown from those plot was how well Audyssey XT32 worked. Without it, it would be a complete mess.

I think also I have plenty to gain in terms of placement.

I'm still thinking of a single SB-13Ultra now, and with plans to go to a dual ultras by summer.

One thing I had a question about (hopefully other REW folks can answer). When the signal was generated it mentioned -12db being sent.

When I did my measurements at 0db reference at the receivers volume, does it mean that the signal was down below reference, so I can expect higher values (100+db) when a regular signal is played?

Thanks

Hello.

Here I leave a graph of the frequency response in my three listening points. The EQ Audyssey MultEQ XT is applied and the position of the subwoofer is just where you see in the images above and hanged.

Each line represents a different seat.

Nice... But what about below 20 Hz?

I take it you're talking about a PB12-Plus if the manual says to set the volume to 0dB on the sub? Yes, it's max volume for the sub, but it's also ideal as the amp in the Plus (and Ultra) has the best performances at that volume. If you can lower the volume on your AVR this is the best option. However, for example, on my AVR, the auto calibration complains about excessive volume even when set below -10 dB. It will largely depend on your room, AVR, and... well, your number of subs I guess

I normally don't participate in such discussions but I wish to make a small comment for the record. While it is rather obvious that Auditor is not of an enthusiastic persuasion, I say it takes a bit of everything to make a good salad, and hearing comments falling outside the party line is sometimes refreshing. Auditor's posts are biased towards the "less is sometimes better" side, which is not very popular in sub threads... and he's not afraid to be critical, which may be a problem to some (not really to me though). Feel free to ignore him. For one I think he does add interesting points to the discussion even though I'm more often than not either neutral or disagreeing with him.

***

Comments about my dual Pluses incoming

You are killing me. Curious minds want need to know. I realize that you are probably busy tweaking them as I write this but seriously we are all on pins and needles here.

I guess I have you where I wanted then

Seriously, my apologies: I really thought I'd have the time to write something with more meat and details by now, but I have a bunch of excuses -- I'll spare you that unless you're really interested in the ups and downs of family life in suburban Canada.

What I can tell you is that I fetched the replacement PC12-Plus on Friday night and unpackaged it on Saturday. I plugged it in -- in the closest available location, which was "position 1", just to see if it works. Well, it *did* . I could not wait any longer and quickly performed a basic setup keeping it at this location. My first sub is set on the front stage, between my left main and the TV, close to a corner. This new sub is set just on the left of the couch with the two main listening positions. In short, even just listening to the test pink noise, the difference between a single Plus and duals is literally night and day in my small 1600 cu. ft. room. I performed a quick level and phase adjustment and watched the Amazing Life THX trailer with my daughter.

The sound was thunderous, loud, deep, filling, even without EQ. Then the mushroom popped... I laughed out loud because of the ripples I felt in the floor and couch. I would have sworn the floor was moving at least a good 4" (I was just beside the 2nd sub). And that was at about -36 dB from reference... I began to have doubts and I understood that I managed to run the subs about +16dB hot.

(The reason for that is that I set my sub volume so that my AVR's test tones registered 85 dB each, whereas I should have aimed for 75 dB. While it is true that the LFE channel is played 10 dB louder than the other channels, this is not true for the sub output in general, and 85 dB is the target level if a test tone is played through the LFE channel. The test tones from my AVR are sent to the sub out but should be calibrated at 75 dB. And I got almost +6dB when both subs were put into action).

The initial excitement passed, I began to realize that the great bass was not perfect though -- which was not surprising since I spent all of 5 min setting up the subs. While the subs sounded really good even without EQ, probably because of a much flatter FR, bass across the room was not that uniform. In fact, again, the main listening position was a low spot. Worse, even after adjusting the sub volumes to the correct level, I was getting tight, punchy, accurate, loud bass... in the kitchen on the other side of the living room wall (the two subs were almost against this dividing wall). My GF later that night complained about it and in fact she was 100% right that it was not acceptable and verging on the absurd (I was listening to the Pod Emergence scene from WotW and she got the full experience while preparing her evening herbal tea while I was bumping the volume on the couch trying to get a bit more). Another problem was that bass was a bit localizable, with the most slam coming from the left side of the room, which was a bit annoying.

So on Sunday I moved the 2nd sub on the right of the front stage. I'm happy to report that now bass is *great* at the listening position and louder there than in the kitchen Slam now is coming from the front stage, which is much more natural than from the side. I was surprised that adjusting phase did not produce lots of variation in SPL at the main LP. The needle swings a bit during the pink noise test tone so it's hard to have a precise value but there was less than 2-3 dB difference with all the available settings. An educated guess would be that both subs are exciting different room modes and therefore produces a somewhat decorrelated output. Which is the whole point of having duals I guess. Right now the sub levels are adjusted as the AVR wants it, which is a bit low to my taste, but still provides lots of slam when venturing above moderate volume, and produces the greasy bass that I like when listening to my habitual tracks. This is without EQ at all.

I wanted to be able to take FR measurements and show that to you but I was not able to do so last night. Next step will be EQing and applying a gentle house curve, then see if I need to run the subs a tad hot. And also, of course, watch a movie, and enjoy them a bit before posting what I think of the dual Pluses listening to actual content instead of pink noise and short demos. The only thing I can say for sure is that in my living room, running duals indeed made more difference than 1) just upgrading a single SB12 to a single Plus, 2) endlessly tweaking sub position and 3) carefully EQing a single sub. I'll report back when the duals are more carefully tuned to my taste; but right now I can say that they are in the rough ballpark of my perhaps very high expectations

one word....AWESOME!!

very glad you now feel they are worth the upgrade, just wait until you rewatch all of your movies

I am happy for you...now you can really enjoy this all instead of the small nightmare you had for the past month and a half pics when you get a chance! but go into your home and listen in bliss Looking foreward to what EQ'ing can do for you...

BTW that rippling of the floor was exactly what I was talking about when I heard the difference between the SB and the PB.. those are the 16hz tones you are feeling

On one hand I can't wait to listen to 5-star movies. On the other hand I'm telling myself I should tweak the EQ and levels first so that I can enjoy them fully. Anyway, now I know what I'm doing with REW and my BFD so getting a few measurements and setting the EQ can be done relatively quick.

Two Three questions that should probably be posted on HTS or a more relevant thread on AVSForums, but maybe I can have a quick answer here:

1. Is there a way to average REW measurements?
2. If not, I should just check this out, but I guess measurement files are plaintext? Are they easy to read / load in another software? My goal would be to average measurements outside of REW and then create a REW-type file containing an averaged measurement to serve as the basis for EQing.
3. On the BFD (Behringer DSP1124p) I noticed that I can only save EQ settings in presets that are empty (blinking lights). How do I write over existing presets? I only have 3 empty presets left

I have tons of things I'd like to test, such as Positions 1 & 3 (which was my original idea for the location, and I must admit sitting just beside such a powerful sub is really fun), and also trying a Geddes-like approach (maybe running both the mains and subs first). I should probably take more accurate level measurements and tweak phase. I only tested the 16 Hz tune so far; I certainly ought to try the default 20 Hz tune and sealed mode. But I think you're right Brian, now I probably should sit back and enjoy my purchase first.