Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 320

You could also add another Plus... That would provide a bit more output than replacing the Plus with an Ultra. Of course you could also go all the way to dual Ultras right now too

I knew I shouldn't be in this forum.

Now I am going broke!!!

Aren't we all. Aren't we all.

LOL!!

Yeah, after this im leaving AVS alone LOL! There should be a addicts support thread LOL!

We get more addicted with each and every thread. There is no help for us.

You want to talk about getting addicted.

I am about to sell my house, my cars, my dog, my cat, all of my clothes and what else am I missing...oh, my wife and my daughter so I can buy the ultimate home theater system. LOL!!!


Wait a minute, since I sold my house, I have no where to put my ultimate home theater system. I suppose I can put my ultimate home theater system somewhere in the woods. LOL!!!

I have a PB12-Plus DSP, and proven giant werewolf scene and reference level, and in control sounds very impressive.

Certainly the LFE channel of this film, has a very resonant timbre very high frequencies of LFE and this can cause is annoying to you, it is rather a problem of recording.

I have my subwoofer 20hz mode to squeeze every last drop of his power and never reaches more than half of its elongation.

Should be no problem for the subwoofer.

You may be right about the recording.

I am wondering is there need to be a break in period so the sub would improve in the sound quality. Maybe like a 50 hour break in period at high volume. I just bought the PB-12 Plus over a month ago from SVS and I have not had use the PB-12 Plus very much. Maybe the more I use it, the better the sound will improve.

My PB-12 Plus is also set at 20Hz and was recommended by the people from SVS.

The break-in period of a subwoofer or a speaker, is more a legend than a miss. It's not like a car engine.

It advised that some brands within 24 or 50 hours of shooting, but for me it's a myth among the audio world.

Some people confuse shooting with custom or get used to the sound of the same speaker. Something similar happens when you hear a reference or hotter of it.

The question I want to do is:

Are 75dbs calibrated? Or simply have some decibels hotter?

There are times that much fat Dinamyc LFE EQ and longer natural. I have it off, because everything sounds so much more precise and perhaps in the underworld scene of the problem disappears. Anyway if you listen at reference, Dynamic EQ makes no effect on the response curve, this is left to be canceled and in the same reference.

I am confused, so do you have the Dynamic EQ on or off?

I will turn it off today and watch the Underworld Awakening again to see if there is a difference.

New SVS owner here, and I wasn't too happy.....

I just hook up the beautiful PB12-Plus in my <2700sq ft sealed HT. I ran Audyssey XT32 and turned down the sub's volume as instructed, -12db sub's volume. I tried the bass performance using both Superleo & ScubaSteve's bluray demo discs. It certain shaking most of the stuffs right outside the HT room, and I could feel a bit of shaking in my seat too (1st row), and more vibration at the 2nd row sits. Everything seems fine. However, I didn't feel any chest pounding or pressurized at all at any of the seats (total of 8 seats)! I kept hearing people not just mentioning about everything in their house shaked, but also feeling the bass at their chest (and that's what I'm looking for).

Is there something wrong in my case?? Am I expecting the wrong "feel" (deep base = shaking, upper base = chest pounding?)? I've tried to up a couple db in the AVR and up the sub's volume at -10db now, still not chest pounding to me at any seat.... And I also tried to turn off Audyssey just in case it's messing up the sub/bass, pretty much the same. And I was assured that the PB12-Plus should be more than enough for my <2700 sq ft sealed room from SVS & I truly believe it. So, what's wrong in my case/setup? Should I up the sub's volume (not at AVR sub level)? What's everything's sub volume running at?

I feel/hear like my family room's setup has tighter bass too (no shaking and no chest pounding of course) than in the HT. Family only has a pair of Definitive Tech Mytho ST, no separate sub!

You can tell I'm quite a bit disappointed of my new toy..... And I still believe in this sub and thinking it's my setup who's doing wrong.....

p.s. I do have 2" of OC703 with 2" air gap between them & the wall at the bottom of the rear wall.

Here's a pic of the HT if that helps.

Hey man, in my experience, you should use a sound meter to make sure your subs give a 75db test tone after audyssey. I'm an xt32 user but I had to raise my sub level quite a bit after audyssey because it doesn't always get the sub level right. Match the level to 75db and you will find what you seek. And if not, some folks run a few db "hot." I also use the scubasteve+superleo discs.

I can conceive that a Plus could be maxed out during that 5-star bass movie in a large room listening at reference level. The problem I have with your story is that you mention hearing distressed sounds from the sub. It was my understanding that the limiter in the sub amp is quite good in SVS products. This means that turning the volume up, the sub should simply stop going higher, but not necessarily produce unwanted distortion. Do you have a component between your AVR and sub? Something that could clip the signal and induce distortion? Did you send a recording of the sub doing that to SVS just to see if it's normal?

Hi shark -- really nice HT room you got there. I feel your pain because I upgraded from the SB12, which I felt was fantastic for the price, to dual Pluses (at several multiple of the SB12's price of course), and at first I had lots of trouble getting even the same results as the SB12. What I realized is that bass is surprisingly tricky to get right even with the right equipment. So my suggestion is to arm yourself with patience and try a few of the solutions people will without a doubt suggest in this thread before throwing the towel. The Plus is a very impressive sub so barring a damaged unit, you should be able to set it up in a satisfactory manner.

It is to be noted that Ed Mullen himself (from SVS) said in this thread that if possible, it is best to turn *up* the gain on the Plus as close to 0 dB as possible, and reduce the sub gain in the AVR accordingly. The digital Sledge amps perform better at maximum gain -- outputting a larger peak power. If you have an XT32-enabled receiver chances are that you can reduce the sub trim level down enough to do this.

As you can see, bass is very position-dependant. I know the PB12-Plus is not fun to move but changing its location may produce night-and-day differences at the main listening location. There is no really easy way to predict where a single sub will perform the best in a room though. But trying a few locations would be the first course of action to produce the best result in your seat. Another thing to consider: it's perfectly alright to run the sub hot (a few dB more than the recommended 75 dB) if it fits your taste. Also, do you use the default 20-Hz tuning?

I have dual Pluses in a much smaller room (~1600 cu ft) and just spent a whole night with friends listening at rather high levels with the subs a bit hot. I got lots of shaking, and what I would also describe as slam, but I was a bit puzzled that chest thump was light compared to what can be heard in a bar with monitors for example. Then I remembered that tunes with chest thumps were not necessarily that bassy. I think chest thump is found between 80 and 150 Hz, thus above the standard THX crossover frequency. This is something I want to try soon: setting the crossover to 150 Hz and test how it sounds at high volume. If I'm right, it means the sub simply is not of much use if using a 80 Hz crossover.... [EDIT: huuuh not of much use *for getting chest thump* of course ]

My point is, using two Pluses in half your room is quite impressive but I wouldn't say it produces much chest thump. It works lower than that I think. So I don't think anything is wrong with your setup. As for pressurization, I know the feeling, but I did not really encountered it in the Bass Disc. I felt there was lot of it in Dark Knight Returns using the SB12; I've not tested it with the dual Pluses yet. But if the SB12 could reproduce it, I'd be surprised if the Pluses could not, to say the least. I think it's simply a question of specific bass content.

First congrats on your PB12-Plus. I really think the issue that you are facing is just a calibration problem.

What is the gain that you are currently using in the Plus? Did you try to re-run Aydyssey XT32?

I had a PB12-Plus for few weeks in my room (4K+ sqf) and it was setup at AVR -7 dB and the Plus at 0 dB gain.

Could you please check that and report back?

Many thanks to the quick & great suggestion.

Yes, I did use a SPL meter to confirm level matching at all speakers included the sub after Audyssey did it's thing. And ran Audyssey a twice. And I also manually set it to run +3db hotter than the rest (75db vs 78db @ SPL meter), AVR is at 0 db right now, sub itself is set at -10db. May be I should try to set the sub's volume dial to 0db and re-run Audyssey to see if there will be a difference? I did talked to SVS, and they recommended me to set the sub's volume to -5db, but I feel like I'm throwing the "balance of all the speakers as intended" way off, +5-6db hotter, no?

I'll also try to move the sub to the right of the front wall (instead of left currently) to see if it'll make a difference too, but I doubt since it's not a whole lot of difference in relate to the listening position from left to right.

Also, I was listening at -20db AVR volume since I do feel like the rest of the speakers are loud enough for a regular movie enjoyment, not show-off gathering. May be I should crank up the volume more?

May be I'll try some different materials/movie instead of those 3 demo discs and see? The thing is, it sounds better and tighter with just a pair of DefTech Mythos ST in my family room even with NO shaking in all those demo movie clips.

Yeah, I still believe in the SVS sub, and believe it's MY problem of not getting it's performance right, NOT the product itself.

Yes, let's try to invert the way you have the gain in the AVR and the Plus as follows: 0 dB gain on the Plus and -10 dB in the receiver. Balance should be the same, but you can double check that by using your SPL meter.

Once you have set the sub to 0 dB and the AVR sub level to -10, then play some of the demanding movie material from the demo discs (WOW) and evaluate. If you need more slam/impact, slowly increase the AVR sub channel level in 1 dB increments and re-evaluate. An increase of 3 dB (from -10 to -7) will increase the subwoofer output by about 40%, so that should be quite noticeable. Don't exceed more than 6 dB hot, which is literally a doubling of the subwoofer output.

Please report back!

I agree 100% with CR above, try that first. As a quick test to see if chest thump is more in the 100 Hz range you can try using a 150 Hz crossover. It this resolve the chest thump issue, you'll be left with a hard decision: keep a high crossover and live with directional bass, or revert to 80 Hz. In that regard, I believe the Mythos have built-in powered subs? They probably have internal crossovers that play, say, 200 Hz and below using the subs, and without lack of directionality because they're integrated with the mains. However they won't compete with the Plus for sub-60 Hz performance, that's for sure. If the chest thump issue is really a problem, some people use a "stereo sub" configuration. This is not the same as dual (mono) subs: each channel is crossed over with a sub, so that for example, the left sub plays all sub-200 Hz content for the left channel, and likewise on the right. However this configuration limits where you can put the subs (and, also, well, requires you to buy another sub ).

Well it depends upon the construction of your room. For example, in my room, one sub is close to a "true" corner while the other is close to another corner where a bay window is close by. The "true corner" location makes it louder by about 3-4 dB with respect to the other sub. And the frequency response of each location is not the same (measured with REW).

Depends on your taste, but yeah, -20 dB is considered rather muted by many here I often listen to that level or a bit lower when my daughter is sleeping and I'm listening with my girlfriend. Alone my target volume is more -15 to -10 dB. Note that chest thump will only happen at higher volume anyway.

I think you already have a decent HT demo collection with those and a reference that you like. You should work and try to get at least a result as satisfactory than what you have in your family room first. But I strongly suspect that the sub is not really the problem here: it will do its job to shake an pressurize the room, and provide clean musical output in the 40-80 Hz octave, providing you with detailed, and exquisitely greasy bass lines. If you need more slam in the 80-160 Hz octave, then you'll have to consider one of the following remedy:

- Larger mains
- a 150 Hz crossover with loss of stereo separation below that
- dual subs in a stereo configuration with a higher crossover like you already got in your living room.

The second solution is the easiest to implement. I want to try this myself as soon as possible just to see what it does. Easy to revert back to a 80 Hz crossover after the test. If it proves to be a valid solution, then you'll know if solution number 1 or number 3 is worth pursuing.

Note that this is still only speculation for the chest thump problem. But if you look at what the big guys are doing, there's a reason why the Seaton Catalyst and JTR Triple-12HTs powered LCRs exist

Hah tell me about it. As a PC desktop speaker set, which is what it is, it's probably the best in the world.

As for floor rumble vs chest punching, if chest punching is on the more higher end of bass, would a PB1000 be much better than a PB12-NSD?
PB12-NSD: 18-150 hz
PB1000: 19-270 hz.



I hear PB12-NSD's go much lower than the advertised 18hz though. I still can't make up my mind which one to get! It's gonna be one of those 2 though.

Thanks again! I think I'll give this method a try tonight first as it's the easiest to set instead of a full re-calibration.
Don't push me there as I really don't wanna go much bigger in size/cubic ft than the PB12+.

Yeah, hopefully it will improve the performance of the Plus. And of course, you can set it a bit hotter by gradually increasing the gain in the receiver.

Oh, c'mon you have plenty room in your HT. So, don't stop now...............

The high-frequency figure is only relevant if you need a sub to match very small satellites which cut off way higher than 80 Hz. For example, if your satellites cut off at 150 Hz, it would be wise to use at least a 160 Hz crossover frequency. But then the PB12-NSD would have a hard time reaching that high, and either the PB-1000, the SB-1000 or the SB12-NSD would be a wiser choice.

What I suspect is that powerful chest thump are in fact attainable with all of those subs (and certainly the Plus), if only the sub is set to play the right frequency range. The thing is, most people use a 80 Hz crossover frequency because above that, the sub becomes localizable. Below 80 Hz, wherever you put the sub, it's very hard to tell where the bass comes from, so you have very flexible positioning options. Thus, if you want to use a big sub for the low-end, but still want chest thump, *and* doesn't want localizable bass, then you probably need one of the above mentioned options.

The advertised 18 Hz is not in-room: it's outside, on the ground plane, far from reflective surfaces. In a typical room, bass is boosted, so you're likely to go a few Hz lower indeed. However the PB is a ported sub, which means that below the 20 Hz tuning point, frequency response drops very fast (24 dB/octave). A sealed subwoofer such as the SB12-NSD will have a much gentler roll-off (12 dB/octave) but will also have much less output close to the tuning point to begin with.

Well for the record, the Seaton Catalyst and JTR 12HT are not subs per se rather they're high-sensitivity 4-ohm center / mains (LCR) using 3x 12" woofers. The Catalyst are powered (1000 W each) while the JTR are passive (up to 1600 W RMS each). I bet *those* produce chest thump

A quick idea though. Not sure what are your mains in your HT room but... is it thinkable to switch them with the Mythos set in your living room?

I know, I was talking about their sub.

The main that's use in the HT are DefTech's BP7001SC, they should be more than capable. In fact, I tried them without the sub and set at Large, they are holding on their own for sure, and actually sound pretty good by themself, good tight bass! That's why I have a high hope of the PB12+. At the moment, besides it shakes a little more than the BP7001SC, there's not much of a difference to me. That's why I was fustrurated and disappointed at first when I added the sub to the mix....

In my case this off. Sometimes the active, but it seems somewhat exaggerated and subtraction accuracy and realism to the scene.

I have the PB12-Plus DSP (maximum volume = 0) on my right corner. Audyssey MultEQ XT and I have the subwoofer set to -15 dB, then I have to subtract -10 dbs in the LFE channel, to give me 75 db. The crossover is set at 80Hz (THX) for all speakers and the LPF of LFE at 120hz. I have a lot of earthquake effect and impact on my chest ... Try this configuration.

Your problem may also be that you're sitting right in a void, perhaps a solution of dual subwoofers, also fix certain problems. But with a properly configured PB12-Plus you should have what you demand.

I forgot to say that the way I use is the 20hz, to get the maximum potential to the subwoofer.

I am not sure if I need to start a new thread about this comparison. But which SVS sub is a better performer? Regardless of the price difference. Anyone have either the two subs:


PB13-ULTRA vs. SB13-Ultra


I am thinking of upgrading my PB-12 Plus to one of these. The PB13-ULTRA and the SB13-Ultra seems to have the exact same amp the Sledge STA-1000D. So I am not getting it. Why create another subwoofer with the exact same Sledge STA-1000D amp?
Edited by mantaraydesign - 1/8/13 at 3:39pm

sb-typically better suited for smaller rooms,size constraints,will have more useable extension

pb-typically will have more output at a given level, and better for large rooms, big azz massive box and hvy @ 155lbs

some say sealed boxes are more musical, but that is somewhat unproven.

there are other reasons for the two, in which i'm sure others here will chime in on.

btw, the ultra subs are great. there not the best bang for your buck,but are extremely reliable and play nearly everything flawlessly that you throw at them.

Others here can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the PB Ultra give you the best of both worlds, since you have the option of inserting all 3 port plugs and running it in sealed mode?

Ah Well of course a couple of Submersive would probably do an amazing job

Would you say then that you were expecting something drastically different but you are disappointed that adding the SVS sub does not produce a night and day experience? If so, I think you have to realize that if you already had a system that produce top notch results down to, say, 35 Hz, then the improvement from the SVS will mainly be heard below that, and that's damn low. It's also much more impressive when it's loud.

Running the sub hot might unbalance thing quite a bit, especially if you like listening to music on your HT setup. What I prefer is to use an EQ solution that allows me to introduce a so-called house curve, where there's a gentle slope from 80 Hz down to 30 Hz, placing the frequencies below 30 Hz on a plateau about 6 dB hotter than the crossover region. This compensates for the lack of response from the human hear below 80 Hz and boosts very low frequencies that are there only in LFE and electronic music. The result is quite balanced for music and great for movies. Your AVR might enable you to boost the LFE only also. Doing so will bring what the sub is capable forward; but it's really interesting at higher volumes.

An interesting demonstration of the SVS sub's capabilities, I think, is the famous "Bass, I Love You" song. One of the notes, at the end of the bass line, is extremely low. I heard it first recently with my dual Pluses in 16 Hz tuning, but if the sub's gain is set too low, it's easy to miss. According to Wikipedia that note is ... (drum roll) ... 7 Hz. If you try that with your mains, I doubt you'd be able to get the same effect.


They're not in the same league. They do have the same amp but as said previously, the SB13 is sealed, meaning it needs much more power to move. The benefits of a sealed design is mainly size, and a gentle roll-off at the low end that can be amplified by room gain. But the PB13 or PC13 will wipe the SB13 in terms of sheer output at 20 Hz, and as a bonus, they indeed can be sealed if needed. Your current PB12-Plus will in fact have more output at 20 Hz than the SB13-Ultra. Not that the SB13 is not a good sub: in fact I was quite tempted to go with dual SB13 instead of dual Pluses for a smaller size and more appealing aesthetics. Also because the SB13's gentle roll-off would be amplified quite a bit in my small room (whereas the response below tuning on ported sub drop much faster; then again I settled on the Plus because it can be variably tuned, like the ported Ultras). I personally don't see anything different with music between ported and sealed. Thus if you want to go Ultra, the PB or PC is probably the best choice for you as you need as much output as you can.

Then again, another interesting choice would be to run duals. Dual Pluses would get you a bit more output than a single Ultra, and smooth out both the frequency response and bass uniformity in your room. Ed Mullen from SVS pointed out that buying duals is generally recommended over buying a sub twice as much expensive. However dual Pluses are indeed quite a bit more expensive than a single Ultra though.