Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 321

Originally Posted by neutro 




They're not in the same league. They do have the same amp but as said previously, the SB13 is sealed, meaning it needs much more power to move. The benefits of a sealed design is mainly size, and a gentle roll-off at the low end that can be amplified by room gain. But the PB13 or PC13 will wipe the SB13 in terms of sheer output at 20 Hz, and as a bonus, they indeed can be sealed if needed. Your current PB12-Plus will in fact have more output at 20 Hz than the SB13-Ultra. Not that the SB13 is not a good sub: in fact I was quite tempted to go with dual SB13 instead of dual Pluses for a smaller size and more appealing aesthetics. Also because the SB13's gentle roll-off would be amplified quite a bit in my small room (whereas the response below tuning on ported sub drop much faster; then again I settled on the Plus because it can be variably tuned, like the ported Ultras). I personally don't see anything different with music between ported and sealed. Thus if you want to go Ultra, the PB or PC is probably the best choice for you as you need as much output as you can.

Then again, another interesting choice would be to run duals. Dual Pluses would get you a bit more output than a single Ultra, and smooth out both the frequency response and bass uniformity in your room. Ed Mullen from SVS pointed out that buying duals is generally recommended over buying a sub twice as much expensive. However dual Pluses are indeed quite a bit more expensive than a single Ultra though.

Originally Posted by mantaraydesign 

Why is it every time this guy jump into my discussion, that I always feel BROKE!!! In my mind, all I can see is BROKE!!! LOL!!!!
Can someone please take this guy out of this forum please!!! LOL!!!
I am just kidding with you. Thanks for your great advice as always my friend.

Originally Posted by cr136124 

Yes, let's try to invert the way you have the gain in the AVR and the Plus as follows: 0 dB gain on the Plus and -10 dB in the receiver. Balance should be the same, but you can double check that by using your SPL meter.
Once you have set the sub to 0 dB and the AVR sub level to -10, then play some of the demanding movie material from the demo discs (WOW) and evaluate. If you need more slam/impact, slowly increase the AVR sub channel level in 1 dB increments and re-evaluate. An increase of 3 dB (from -10 to -7) will increase the subwoofer output by about 40%, so that should be quite noticeable. Don't exceed more than 6 dB hot, which is literally a doubling of the subwoofer output.
Please report back!

Originally Posted by mantaraydesign 

I am not sure if I need to start a new thread about this comparison. But which SVS sub is a better performer? Regardless of the price difference. Anyone have either the two subs:
PB13-ULTRA vs. SB13-Ultra
I am thinking of upgrading my PB-12 Plus to one of these. The PB13-ULTRA and the SB13-Ultra seems to have the exact same amp the Sledge STA-1000D. So I am not getting it. Why create another subwoofer with the exact same Sledge STA-1000D amp?

Originally Posted by neutro 

sub hot might unbalance thing quite a bit, especially if you like listening to music on your HT setup. What I prefer is to use an EQ solution that allows me to introduce a so-called house curve, where there's a gentle slope from 80 Hz down to 30 Hz, placing the frequencies below 30 Hz on a plateau about 6 dB hotter than the crossover region. This compensates for the lack of response from the human hear below 80 Hz and boosts very low frequencies that are there only in LFE and electronic music. The result is quite balanced for music and great for movies. Your AVR might enable you to boost the LFE only also. Doing so will bring what the sub is capable forward; but it's really interesting at higher volumes.
An interesting demonstration of the SVS sub's capabilities, I think, is the famous "Bass, I Love You" song. One of the notes, at the end of the bass line, is extremely low. I heard it first recently with my dual Pluses in 16 Hz tuning, but if the sub's gain is set too low, it's easy to miss. According to Wikipedia that note is ... (drum roll) ... 7 Hz. If you try that with your mains, I doubt you'd be able to get the same effect.
They're not in the same league. They do have the same amp but as said previously, the SB13 is sealed, meaning it needs much more power to move. The benefits of a sealed design is mainly size, and a gentle roll-off at the low end that can be amplified by room gain. But the PB13 or PC13 will wipe the SB13 in terms of sheer output at 20 Hz, and as a bonus, they indeed can be sealed if needed. Your current PB12-Plus will in fact have more output at 20 Hz than the SB13-Ultra. Not that the SB13 is not a good sub: in fact I was quite tempted to go with dual SB13 instead of dual Pluses for a smaller size and more appealing aesthetics. Also because the SB13's gentle roll-off would be amplified quite a bit in my small room (whereas the response below tuning on ported sub drop much faster; then again I settled on the Plus because it can be variably tuned, like the ported Ultras). I personally don't see anything different with music between ported and sealed. Thus if you want to go Ultra, the PB or PC is probably the best choice for you as you need as much output as you can.

Originally Posted by landshark1 

I did the revert setting, 0db in the sub's volume, -9db in the AVR, crossed check the level with a SPL meter. Now it sounds much better! I can "feel" much more bass than before! Thanks guy!!

Originally Posted by Lecter83 

The boy has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 in his new Denon as such comes with the Dynamic EQ (This does the same function as the curve house, only to be balancing and ceases to apply, when in reference level).

It can also be a matter of departure, you may need to increase the volume level or maybe add a second SVS, 8 seats and they are going to be very difficult for the low sounds flawless in all those seats.

Originally Posted by neutro 

Ok so with Lecter you are the second in a few days to report a big difference running the Plus at 0 dB. Is the difference noticeable even at moderate volumes? If so, I guess I ought to try it. Now, since my AVR cannot attenuate the sub pre out enough for me to run the subs at max gain, I guess I need to find an attenuator with RCA connectors. Looks like it's possible. Do you have any problem getting the auto on feature to work with a heavily attenuated sub output?

Originally Posted by neutro 

I'm sure he's aware that having the same response on all 8 seats will be difficult but he should at least be able to get good results at his preferred location even with a single sub.

Originally Posted by Lecter83 

I'm now using the Behringer ULTRACURVE to achieve having the subwoofer to 0 and 75db with the other channels.

The power difference is palpable even at moderate levels

Note that my PB12-Plus DSP is working in a small room, 10 square meters ... The bass here is overwhelming.

Originally Posted by Lecter83 

Does your PB12-Plus is a Bash 525w or 800w DSP?
IIf it is a 800w DSP is the one I have and I also had a PC13-Ultra DSP, and I could compare in terms of output, the ultra will only achieve 2.5dB 2db or more for the ultra. I ended up selling the ultra and stayed with the DSP Plus, since practically gives me the same and are indistinguishable in almost all applications that I do.
SB13 is a delay, it will not have the brutality of PB12 or PB13-plus-ultra in the 40Hz-15Hz range (about 10 dB near the tuning point) and maybe 2 to 4 dB from 40 to 120Hz, either the plus or ultra .
Personally it is better that you include another PB12-Plus and so have two subwoofers, you can get up to 6 dB and two plus'd be much more better output SPL and frequency response in room, a single Ultra.
Hope this helps, because I've had almost all models of SVS and reviewed.

Originally Posted by jkotubey 

I got my SB12-NSD over the weekend. Ran the ARC on my Anthem receiver and below are the charts. The room that the sub is in is 13x20x8.5 with an 8 ft opening into the kitchen. The sub is to the left of the left front speaker.

Based on the chart, does it look like the sub is performing as expected? I'm happy with the way that it sounds for both movies and music, but part of me is wondering if I should get a second one based on all the comments in the forum.
Your thoughts?

I am also looking at some 15 inch or an 18 inch sub right now.

Originally Posted by mantaraydesign 

So if I set 0db in the sub's volume and -9db in the AVR, the PB12 Plus will improve a lot in the sounds? Setting the sub's volume at 0db seems really high isn't it? Are you trying to blow up the 12 inch driver?
I was told by SVS to set the sub's volume at -10db and run Audyssey and the AVR should be around -5.0db.
Let me set the sub's volume at 0db and run Audyssey again to see if any improvement in the sounds.

Originally Posted by neutro 

Please report back as the 0 dB setting on the sub was recommended by Ed Mullen himself earlier in this thread. The goal is not to blow up the driver as you compensate by lowering the sub output level accordingly. Ed said that on the digital Sledge amps (800 and 1000W), general performance and peak power were improved if set at the higher gain possible.

Originally Posted by vailvon 

I have MRX700 and just got the SB1000. It looks like our graph is very similar. I set my ARC to flat and cross over is 150 hz and it sounds fantastic. Below is my latest sub chart.

Try setting your ARC to flat and let me know if there is a difference.

Originally Posted by jkotubey 

Do you feel like you're in need of a second sub in your application?

Originally Posted by airgas1998 

so are you guys thinking my pb13 w/ the 1000w sledge should operate in the same matter. ie; set my sub level to 0db and adjust avr trim. i'm at -10db on the sub now and -7 in the avr which is really already running hot.

Originally Posted by neutro 

You FR looks alright at first sight (though it would be nice to see more details in the 20-100 Hz region and below 20 Hz too). If the red curve is the final measurement you have a few room modes to tame. Sorry, I don't know much about ARC; if the *green* curve (but it says "calculated") is the final result then all I can say is "wow" In terms of extension it looks in line with what I had with my SB12 although as I said, you may want to see what happens below 20 Hz. But you have great output right down to 20 hz so it's already great. A second sub will help in 1) adding close to 6 dB in max output; 2) improving frequency response smoothness and 3) improving bass uniformity across the room. In terms of need it's certainly a luxury, but the difference is certainly noticeable.
Yes -- the initial comment by Ed was specifically for the Ultras but it also applies to Pluses. The AVR running hot has nothing to do with the sub out of course You simply set the sub to 0 dB and the AVR sub out to -17 dB to compensate. The overall level output by the sub should stay exactly the same. Please report back to provide us with your impressions.

Originally Posted by mantaraydesign 

I think you meant -7dB correct?
I don't think there is a -17dB adjustment within the AVR.

Originally Posted by landshark1 

I did the revert setting, 0db in the sub's volume, -9db in the AVR, crossed check the level with a SPL meter. Now it sounds much better! I can "feel" much more bass than before! Thanks guy!!
Now I just need to pick up a few new movie. Any good suggestion?

Originally Posted by airgas1998 

so are you guys thinking my pb13 w/ the 1000w sledge should operate in the same matter. ie; set my sub level to 0db and adjust avr trim. i'm at -10db on the sub now and -7 in the avr which is really already running hot.

Originally Posted by cr136124 

I have two Ultras at home and that is the way they are working (sub set at 0 dB), EQ calibration is done via Velodyne SMS-1 and the Yamaha receiver trim is set to -9 dB

Originally Posted by neutro 

Please report back as the 0 dB setting on the sub was recommended by Ed Mullen himself earlier in this thread. The goal is not to blow up the driver as you compensate by lowering the sub output level accordingly. Ed said that on the digital Sledge amps (800 and 1000W), general performance and peak power were improved if set at the higher gain possible.

Originally Posted by jkotubey 

I have my corssover set for 120 for the sub, and then my fronts are crossed over at 60Hz (these were the default settings). Forgive my ignorance, but what does setting it to flat do?
Do you feel like you're in need of a second sub in your application?

Originally Posted by mantaraydesign 

I just set the sub's volume at 0dB and ran the Audyssey which set the AVR volume at -15db.
The sounds seems to be the same at reference level. The 12 inch driver was still having the little flapping sounds during the movie Underworld Awakening. The part where the mighty giant werewolf's feet stumps.
I think I am just listening to extremely high volume (0db). I will have to try a dual subs to see if having 2 subs will solve the flapping sounds on the driver.

Originally Posted by neutro 

CR -- a question then. Normally setting up dual subs, don't you level-match them first so that they each produce the same volume at the listening position? If so, how do you manage that when setting both sub gains to 0dB? Can you apply a different gain/attenuation to each sub using either your AVR or the SMS-1? Or did you simply not bother level-matching? (Which might not be a big deal after all)

Originally Posted by mantaraydesign 

I just set the sub's volume at 0dB and ran the Audyssey which set the AVR volume at -15db.
The sounds seems to be the same at reference level. The 12 inch driver was still having the little flapping sounds during the movie Underworld Awakening. The part where the mighty giant werewolf's feet stumps.
I think I am just listening to extremely high volume (0db). I will have to try a dual subs to see if having 2 subs will solve the flapping sounds on the driver.

Originally Posted by cr136124 

I don't need to worry about that due to both subs are placed on the front stage, equidistant from the listening position. My understanding is that nearfield placement will cause time alignment problems, so the only way to fix it is by using your AVR to handle separate distance controls for each sub. In my case my Yamaha and SMS-1 are not capable of doing that and due to my particular conditions, I don't need it.
However, before I knew that, I was so worry about trying to go with individual calibration for each sub, to the point that I was contemplating on buying a second SMS-1 to achieve that.....

Originally Posted by neutro 

I figured out that the single sub output can be simply splitted using dual mono subs before buying the duals But I was not speaking about *EQing* each sub individually, rather simply adjusting their levels. In my case even with equidistant subs one needs about 4-5 dB less gain to produce the same volume at the listening position. Level-matching simply means having each sub contribute equally at the listening position in SPL terms, while using a different amount of power. This may not be necessary, at least for 80 Hz and down. Anyway, in my case, I still need a way to attenuate the sub pre out further as the max attenuation on my AVR is not sufficient to run the sub gains at 0 dB.
Following the discussion on slam and chest thump, I am tempted to EQ / calibrate the subs just to test a crossover of 150 Hz. If it does produce more chest thump (I couldn't bear to listen to my setup at high volume with the bloated bass it produces without EQ), with symmetrically positioned subs just beside the mains anyway, I'm tempted to try a stereo configuration in which the L/R are set to Large but each front channel are crossed over to one sub using a high crossover frequency (such as 150 Hz). Alas there is no speaker level inputs and outputs on the Pluses, and my AVR do not have pre outs, so it would be complicated for me to try this out...

Originally Posted by neutro 

In airgas' original post he said he had the sub gain at -10 dB and the AVR sub trim at -7 dB. If he were to raise the gain to 0 dB in the sub, he must then lower the sub trim to -17 dB on its AVR to keep the same overall sub level. The goal is not to actually raise the sub volume, only to operate the sub amp at its maximum gain setting.
If like me a -17 dB trim level for the sub output is impossible on the AVR, then we must find another way to attenuate the sub output in order to set the sub to 0 dB.