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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 322

post #9631 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Nice to hear that your are happy with your SVS sub. I watched the new Dredd movie yesterday and the sound it is really cool (movie not so much). Others are reporting that Looper is a solid performer on the sound are too and it seems the movie is pretty decent. I need to rent that one for the weekend!

looper-has lots of mid bass....i think this is where my pb13u shines it nearly shook the house apart. exaggerating slighty of course.biggrin.gif
post #9632 of 15702
By the way, how is everyone running the dual subs from your receiver?

On the back of my receiver, I only see 1 sub output. Are you using a Y Splitter cable which connect from your receiver to your 2 subs?
Edited by mantaraydesign - 1/9/13 at 3:50pm
post #9633 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

looper-has lots of mid bass....i think this is where my pb13u shines it nearly shook the house apart. exaggerating slighty of course.biggrin.gif

Man, here I'm still working and it seems is going to be a long night. If not, I would be already at the Redbox kiosk picking this movie up!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantaraydesign View Post

By the way, how is everyone running the dual subs from your receiver?

On the back of my receiver, I only see 1 sub output. Are you using a Y Splitter cable which connect from your receiver to your 2 subs?

Correct! You just need to split the signal coming out of the receiver and the amps on each sub will do the rest.
post #9634 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Man, here I'm still working and it seems is going to be a long night. If not, I would be already at the Redbox kiosk picking this movie up!
Correct! You just need to split the signal coming out of the receiver and the amps on each sub will do the rest.


Thanks for the information!


What if I want to hook up 3 subs? I suppose I can use 2 Y Adaptor cables. I would connect 1 rca cable from the receiver to the 1st sub with Y Adaptor, I than run the rca cable from the 1st sub to the 2nd sub with the Y Adaptor. I guess I can repeat the process and have as many subs I want.

How about connecting 10 subs? LOL!
post #9635 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

So, how are you measuring levels for each sub. Do you turn one one, measure it, then turn it off and do the same for the other one?

Exactly! But when they are at their final position of course. Then running both together you get somewhere between 3 and 6 dB more. You can fine-tune gain in the AVR. This is the idea behind level-matching.
Quote:
When I received my second Ultra the instruction received was to place both subs next to each other. Test sound level for each one individually at 75 dB. Then run both together to see if the level increase at least 6 dB while running both together. Turned out, I had a problem with one of the amps in which the polarity (internal cables) were inverted. So, instead of a gain of 6 dB, my SPL meter was droping to 68 dB (both subs running).

Yep, I needed to remove the amp, switch the wires, test the subs again and boom...........SPL meter was reading 81 to 82 dB. Right after that, I put in their final location, run SMS-1 calibration first and finally YPAO.

I remember your posts about that issue alright and was keeping that in mind when I set up my duals. Since I get about 4-5 dB more in a symmetrical position setup, I figured it's pretty much impossible that the woofers are wired in reverse polarity. But indeed I did not do the test side-by-side.
Quote:
I didn't touch levels on the subs since then and both are set at 0 dB.
Tell me what you did and I'll give it a try ASAP..............wink.gif

Well I guess what you did was simply gain-matching, meaning both subs work equally hard, but one may be heard more than the other at the listening position (depending on your room layout and room FR). I think this is absolutely alright especially with a crossover of 80 Hz or under, where the subs are not really localizable. I think I'll do the same in fact unless I end up buying the MiniDSP and I can adjust different gains for the two outputs (while keeping the subs themselves at 0 dB gain).
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

looper-has lots of mid bass....i think this is where my pb13u shines it nearly shook the house apart. exaggerating slighty of course.biggrin.gif

When shaking is involved and not merely rattling, I think we're speaking about lower bass biggrin.gif

But not sure about what frequencies does what exactly. Since I had a peak at 45 Hz (I think this is mid-bass), I know what it does and its the frequencies that produces that "exquisitely greasy bass lines" I was talking about. Higher bass (80 Hz and up) is more the thump feelings and rumbles, shakes, seismic waves, etc. are the low bass. I think.

What we need is a demo blu-ray with very short segments labelled like: "You will now hear 10 sec of LFE with strong 10-to-20 Hz content": *rumble*. "Now 10 sec with 30-40 Hz low bass". *wub-wub*. "Here are 10 sec of mid-bass". "Here is an explosion scene with everything from 100 to 10 Hz", etc. Guys, we should learn exactly what we're talking about and develop an appropriate vocabulary. Wine tasting does it after all, why not us. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantaraydesign View Post

What if I want to hook up 3 subs? I suppose I can use 2 Y Adaptor cables. I would connect 1 rca cable from the receiver to the 1st sub with Y Adaptor, I than run the rca cable from the 1st sub to the 2nd sub with the Y Adaptor. I guess I can repeat the process and have as many subs I want.

How about connecting 10 subs? LOL!

Exactly; you can daisy-chain splitters to get 2, then 4, then 8, then 2^n for integer n outputs this way. But realistically after 4 subs you're out of your mind *and* need to invest in a 1x8 splitter biggrin.gif
post #9636 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantaraydesign View Post

Thanks for the information!


What if I want to hook up 3 subs? I suppose I can use 2 Y Adaptor cables. I would connect 1 rca cable from the receiver to the 1st sub with Y Adaptor, I than run the rca cable from the 1st sub to the 2nd sub with the Y Adaptor. I guess I can repeat the process and have as many subs I want.

How about connecting 10 subs? LOL!

If you want to connect 10 subs, then you will have to invite me to your house and I'll explain that in person. I "must" experience 10 subs running at a Home Theater, but I need to experience it before your wife kick you out of the house.........biggrin.gif
post #9637 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post


Exactly; you can daisy-chain splitters to get 2, then 4, then 8, then 2^n for integer n outputs this way. But realistically after 4 subs you're out of your mind *and* need to invest in a 1x8 splitter biggrin.gif


Well, let me break down why I would want that many subs:

1st Sub - Chest Thump

2nd Sub - Back Thump

3rd Sub - Head Thump

4th Sub - Butt Thump

5th Sub - Left Side Thump

6th Sub - Right Side Thump

7th Sub - Left Leg Thump

8th Sub - Right Leg Thump

9th Sub - Stomach Thump

10th Sub - Face Slap Thump

11th Sub - Bringing Down The House Thump!!!

LOL!!!!
post #9638 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

If you want to connect 10 subs, then you will have to invite me to your house and I'll explain that in person. I "must" experience 10 subs running at a Home Theater, but I need to experience it before your wife kick you out of the house.........biggrin.gif


LOL!!!!
post #9639 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Exactly! But when they are at their final position of course. Then running both together you get somewhere between 3 and 6 dB more. You can fine-tune gain in the AVR. This is the idea behind level-matching.

Understood. I'll give it a try using my SPL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I remember your posts about that issue alright and was keeping that in mind when I set up my duals. Since I get about 4-5 dB more in a symmetrical position setup, I figured it's pretty much impossible that the woofers are wired in reverse polarity. But indeed I did not do the test side-by-side.

Well, something to check at your end in the future, if you decide to move things around your room of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well I guess what you did was simply gain-matching, meaning both subs work equally hard, but one may be heard more than the other at the listening position (depending on your room layout and room FR). I think this is absolutely alright especially with a crossover of 80 Hz or under, where the subs are not really localizable. I think I'll do the same in fact unless I end up buying the MiniDSP and I can adjust different gains for the two outputs (while keeping the subs themselves at 0 dB gain).

I'll check this with my SPL to see if indeed there is a difference at the listening position or not. BTW - I have the crossover set at 100 Hz and I'm not able to localize bass, but keep in mind that I'm running two Ultras, so they might be complementing each other pretty well...............and for that..........I have no complains! biggrin.gif
post #9640 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

If you want to connect 10 subs, then you will have to invite me to your house and I'll explain that in person.

You joke but that guy notnyt (forum member) really did build an 8-sub setup (okay in 4 enclosures but still!) And not 8 puny little 13-inchers like your Ultra either biggrin.gif He actually used 8 TC Sound LMS 5400 18" drivers (each worth about a grand) and 4 Labgruppen FP14000 clone amps, delivering 4.4 kW into each of the drivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Understood. I'll give it a try using my SPL.

Well I was not really advising you to do it. You could begin just checking if each sub delivers about the same SPL at the listening position with a level check and turning off one sub then the other.
Quote:
BTW - I have the crossover set at 100 Hz and I'm not able to localize bass, but keep in mind that I'm running two Ultras, so they might be complementing each other pretty well...............and for that..........I have no complains! biggrin.gif

They also happen to be symmetrically positioned so if anything, bass will seem to come from your display, which is, well, pretty okay tongue.gif
post #9641 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

You joke but that guy notnyt (forum member) really did build an 8-sub setup (okay in 4 enclosures but still!)

Pics or didn't happen....tongue.gif

But seriously, do you have a link? I really want to have a look at these beasts!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

And not 8 puny little 13-inchers like your Ultra either biggrin.gif

Ok. now I'm offended............wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

He actually used 8 TC Sound LMS 5400 18" drivers (each worth about a grand) and 4 Labgruppen FP14000 clone amps, delivering 4.4 kW into each of the drivers.

Uhm.............let me think about that...........so, where did you say I can buy them........LOL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well I was not really advising you to do it. You could begin just checking if each sub delivers about the same SPL at the listening position with a level check and turning off one sub then the other.

Oh yeah, I'm just planning on measure SPL at my listening position one sub at a time. So, are in the same page!
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

They also happen to be symmetrically positioned so if anything, bass will seem to come from your display, which is, well, pretty okay tongue.gif

Yeah, localization is not the issue. My problem is one rattling coming from one the AC outlets at the left side of my couch. I already removed the cover, but the rattling is still there. It seems the sound is produced by the air conditioning duct hitting the drywall. So, I don't think there is much that I can do to fix that, only option is to mitigate that sound by adding two more Ultras to my setup.............tongue.gif
post #9642 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Pics or didn't happen....tongue.gif

But seriously, do you have a link? I really want to have a look at these beasts!!!
Ok. now I'm offended............wink.gif
Uhm.............let me think about that...........so, where did you say I can buy them........LOL.

It's a DIY project of course:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1314884/8x-18-lms-ultra-5400s-in-4-sealed-enclosures
post #9643 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

It's a DIY project of course:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1314884/8x-18-lms-ultra-5400s-in-4-sealed-enclosures

Crazy stuff........eek.gif

Thanks for making me feel better about my bass additcion. There are others worst than me........biggrin.gif
post #9644 of 15702
What's the PB1000's max db rating at say, 30hz? I'm trying to find how much louder a PB1000 is vs my current system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Crazy stuff........eek.gif

Thanks for making me feel better about my bass additcion. There are others worst than me........biggrin.gif

Does that setup have any midrange and tweeters? I can't see any in the photos.
post #9645 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak Gara View Post

What's the PB1000's max db rating at say, 30hz? I'm trying to find how much louder a PB1000 is vs my current system.

I haven't seen any numbers as for peak SPL. Data-bass measured the PB12-NSD and maximum long-term output was 108 dB at around 100 Hz, with around 105 dB at 30 Hz and about 99-100 dB at 20 Hz. Peak (burst) output was 103 dB at 20 Hz and 105-106 dB at 30 Hz. The PB-1000 has a smaller driver (30% less area) and a smaller amp (25% less power) than the PB12-NSD, so it should be somewhere around 3 dB quieter. Of course this is speculation as proper measurements are needed to confirm this.
Quote:
Does that setup have any midrange and tweeters? I can't see any in the photos.

Not sure why you can't see the pics but the guy has the perfect mancave. Apart from the 8 x LMS 5400 18" subs in 4 cabinets (sealed) powered by the 4 FP14000 clones, and the 30 amp relay and dedicated 200 amp panel for the HT, he's got 2 x JBL 4722N for mains, a JBL 3677 center and 4 x JBL 8350 surrounds. I think those are speakers normally installed in commercial theaters.
post #9646 of 15702
update:

changed my setting on my pb13u to max setting allowable which is -4db gain and -15db trim. it certainly plays w/ authority and sounds great. i can't honestly say it has made a dramatic difference though compared to my last settings -10db gain -9db/avr trim. it's strange to see that -15db cut though. hard to get use to that #. although, ed says it's a 1:1 ratio so it shouldn't matter.
post #9647 of 15702
Thanks for your honest assessment Airgas. Not sure what is the performance difference of the Sledge amp when set to -4 dB versus max gain (0 dB). Ed was hinting that the higher the gain, the better the performance. But since he mainly spoke about peak power, I'm kind of skeptical I will be able to hear a difference given the amount of headroom I have anyway.
post #9648 of 15702
My new little SB12 NSD is doing a fine job in my smaller bedroom. This sub really has a snap to it with nice clean, tight bass.
post #9649 of 15702
My 2nd sub. PB12 Plus to go with my PC12 Plus.
post #9650 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I haven't seen any numbers as for peak SPL. Data-bass measured the PB12-NSD and maximum long-term output was 108 dB at around 100 Hz, with around 105 dB at 30 Hz and about 99-100 dB at 20 Hz. Peak (burst) output was 103 dB at 20 Hz and 105-106 dB at 30 Hz. The PB-1000 has a smaller driver (30% less area) and a smaller amp (25% less power) than the PB12-NSD, so it should be somewhere around 3 dB quieter. Of course this is speculation as proper measurements are needed to confirm this.

You are correct - at 31.5 Hz the PB-1000 has about 3 dB less max output than the PB12-NSD as measured via CEA-2010 2M GP dB RMS. This delta holds in the deep bass regions, and in the mid/upper bass regions the gap narrows - the PB-1000 driver has a light moving mass and the system has high sensitivity and makes excellent use of 300W.
post #9651 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post

My new little SB12 NSD is doing a fine job in my smaller bedroom. This sub really has a snap to it with nice clean, tight bass.

Congrats on you SB12. It was my first SVS sub and sometimes I miss it.... not sure why -- probably just because of its understated looks vs its actual performances. Also I think I miss the grille for some reason rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurrier Sucks View Post

My 2nd sub. PB12 Plus to go with my PC12 Plus.

It's really magnificient biggrin.gif I would really have liked two of those. But the PCs were much easier on the budget and a much better fit footprint-wise in my living room. Not that the PCs are ugly, but look at that. Wow. Did you notice any difference in how the PB and PC sounds?
post #9652 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

You are correct - at 31.5 Hz the PB-1000 has about 3 dB less max output than the PB12-NSD as measured via CEA-2010 2M GP dB RMS.

Thanks for the confirmation. I guess I'm beginning to get it biggrin.gif

While you're there Ed, there has been lots of discussion in the past few pages about setting the gain on 800-W and 1000-W Sledge amps at 0 dB. Two questions for you in that regard.

First, are the benefits linearly increasing a we approach 0 dB? Some of us (myself included) are simply unable to attenuate the sub pre out on our AVR enough to use a 0 dB gain on the sub... Should we still bother to raise the gain on the sub as much as possible anyway?

Second, are the benefits (you were speaking of increased peak power) only noticeable when pushing the sub to its limits? In my case, I have two Pluses in a rather small room, and I only grazed reference levels for fun and demos, never in actual critical listening. I believe I have *lots* of headroom anyway. Should I still pursue ways to attenuate my sub pre out enough to raise the gain to 0 dB on the subs? (I'm trying to find RCA attenuators locally and/or considering EQing devices that can further attenuate the signal sent to the subs).

Thanks for any opinion on those topics.
post #9653 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Thanks for the confirmation. I guess I'm beginning to get it biggrin.gif

While you're there Ed, there has been lots of discussion in the past few pages about setting the gain on 800-W and 1000-W Sledge amps at 0 dB. Two questions for you in that regard.

First, are the benefits linearly increasing a we approach 0 dB? Some of us (myself included) are simply unable to attenuate the sub pre out on our AVR enough to use a 0 dB gain on the sub... Should we still bother to raise the gain on the sub as much as possible anyway?

Second, are the benefits (you were speaking of increased peak power) only noticeable when pushing the sub to its limits? In my case, I have two Pluses in a rather small room, and I only grazed reference levels for fun and demos, never in actual critical listening. I believe I have *lots* of headroom anyway. Should I still pursue ways to attenuate my sub pre out enough to raise the gain to 0 dB on the subs? (I'm trying to find RCA attenuators locally and/or considering EQing devices that can further attenuate the signal sent to the subs).

Thanks for any opinion on those topics.

If the user wants to extract the absolute most peak dynamic power from the amplifier then - yes - to the extent possible (without running out of adjustment range on the sub channel) increase the sub amp volume and decrease the AVR sub channel level. This will typically only be of benefit in a very large room where the sub is being pushed to at/near its limits. In cases like this, going from (for example) -10SVS/0AVR to 0 SVS/-10AVR might subjectively result in a bit more slam/impact from the sub on the largest LFE transients at very high playback levels.

OTOH if you have plenty of headroom and are not approaching the max limits of the sub, you'll likely not notice any difference at all (which was the case with your set-up). In cases like this I certainly wouldn't worry at all about not being able to get to 0 dB on the sub volume.
post #9654 of 15702
Thanks a lot -- I think that clearly answers the questions we had in the past few days! Perhaps a side-question then: is there a way with the digital Sledge amp to know if we're running into the sub's limits in absence of a limiter LED like in the NSD series? I guess in some cases it's clear, such as mantaray noticing flapping sounds listening at reference levels to the werewolf's footsteps in Underworld: Awakening. In my case I think the dual Pluses are the *least* limiting components in my setup so I'll probably never run into their limits.
post #9655 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Thanks a lot -- I think that clearly answers the questions we had in the past few days! Perhaps a side-question then: is there a way with the digital Sledge amp to know if we're running into the sub's limits in absence of a limiter LED like in the NSD series? I guess in some cases it's clear, such as mantaray noticing flapping sounds listening at reference levels to the werewolf's footsteps in Underworld: Awakening. In my case I think the dual Pluses are the *least* limiting components in my setup so I'll probably never run into their limits.

Typical signs of a sub limiting out are a compression of bass dynamics or moderate overdrive artifacts like port chuffing or woofer distress. Compression of bass dynamics should be noticeable by any experienced enthusiast long before the subwoofer is overdriven to the point it actually starts to exhibit audible artifacts.

Since Underworld Awakening is a DTS track (which are typically encoded/mastered considerably louder than their Dolby Digital counterparts), and he had the master volume at/near 0.0 during playback (I had a chat with him via phone), I strongly suspect mantaray was listening well above THX Reference Level when his Plus woofer started complaining.

All subwoofers have limits - even the PB12-Plus. Setting the limiter/compressor algorithm is walking a fine-line between zero overdrive artifacts and leaving too much output on the table. He didn't hurt the subwoofer, but I did advise him that THX Reference Level (i.e., what you would expect to experience in a IMAX cinema) for that particular DVD is probably more in the neighborhood of -8 master volume. The lesson to take away here is that DVD encoding/mastering levels are all over the board without any industry consensus or standard, and we shouldn't expect that setting the master volume to 0.0 will necessarily result in THX Reference Level playback, and in my experience doing so often results in far louder playback than was intended by the director/mixing engineers.
post #9656 of 15702
Very interesting point of view -- I was demoing scenes to friends at -8 dB on the AVR last weekend and it sure sounded as loud, if not louder, than in a real theater. And this is not taking into account that many enthusiasts will run their sub a tad hot on top of this. rolleyes.gif I understand quite well the kind of trade off involved with the limiter; I was just wondering if there was a visual indicator that it was active in Plus and Ultra products.

Okay now, weekend incoming, time for me to actually use the subs and not just talk about them biggrin.gif
post #9657 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Congrats on you SB12. It was my first SVS sub and sometimes I miss it.... not sure why -- probably just because of its understated looks vs its actual performances. Also I think I miss the grille for some reason rolleyes.gif
It's really magnificient biggrin.gif I would really have liked two of those. But the PCs were much easier on the budget and a much better fit footprint-wise in my living room. Not that the PCs are ugly, but look at that. Wow. Did you notice any difference in how the PB and PC sounds?
Still trying to get them dialed in together. I have the PB up front and the PC in the back. No difference in the sound. I got the PC due to its size and placement options and then my wife give me the OK for a sub upfront but didn't like the height of the PC, so I now have a PB and PC.biggrin.gif
post #9658 of 15702
Well if you have any tip to share setting up your dual Pluses, I'm interested. I think I have reached a very good level of performance but part of the difficulty of evaluating one's setup is that you don't necessarily know how it's *supposed* to sound.

Speaking of which, I had the occasion to watch an older action movie this weekend and even at -25 dB volume, the subs presences were unmistakable. So it's not only close to reference that the difference between the SB12 and the dual Pluses are heard. The difference is a bit subtle at moderate volumes like this but there was much more authority in thumps and crashes.

I'm still wondering if I should spend time adjusting my setup and EQing at a much higher crossover frequency to see if it gives more chest thump. With subs placed between my mains and the TV, I'm also quite curious about using them in stereo configuration, although this would require lots of changes in my HT setup I guess (new receiver with pre outs + amps I guess). Anybody here has used duals in a stereo configuration? Is it worth it?
post #9659 of 15702
Want to report back, finally watched a movie last night, Bourne Legacy, with the sub. Love it. Gonna watch TDR tonight. biggrin.gif

However, I've already thinking of the "upgrade" path. tongue.gif I thinking should I take advantage of 1 yr trade up to a PB-13Utra when the time come (Sept), or get a PB-12NSD & place it at the back corner (only available space) for smoother FR for all seats? Will the PB12-NSD match the PB12-Plus? Will it not only smooth out the FR, but also give me a bit more output? Or I'd better get the PB13-Ultra for extra performance and be done with it?
post #9660 of 15702
Quote:
Originally Posted by landshark1 View Post

However, I've already thinking of the "upgrade" path. tongue.gif I thinking should I take advantage of 1 yr trade up to a PB-13Utra when the time come (Sept), or get a PB-12NSD & place it at the back corner (only available space) for smoother FR for all seats? Will the PB12-NSD match the PB12-Plus? Will it not only smooth out the FR, but also give me a bit more output? Or I'd better get the PB13-Ultra for extra performance and be done with it?

I think you'll find that most people in this thread and other subwoofer threads in the forum will advise you to run two subs of the same model if going dual. This is because it will be hard for two subs with different frequency response and performances to blend in properly. For example, if you set up an NSD and a Plus in your room, and you calibrate them and integrate them properly, chances are that the NSD will hit its limits way before the Plus. You won't be able to raise the volume even if the Plus can take it because the NSD will either distort, or if not, will be out of balance anyway. EQing different subs can also be tricky. So the recommended path for going duals is two of the same sub. However, two Pluses can be a steep investment and it can be hard to place properly. Since the cylinders have almost the exact same performances, cost less than the PB and have a small footprint, you may want to consider adding a PC12-Plus too.

That being said, there are many people running duals with mismatched sub who have nothing to complain about.

Upgrading to an Ultra would cost you less upfront than adding a second Plus. However adding a second Plus would provide a tad more output than having an Ultra, and would get you all the benefits (smoother frequency response / better uniformity) of running duals. Generally speaking most people (Ed Mullen included) are of the opinion that it's better spending money on dual subs than on a single sub of twice the price. However as Ultras are not twice the price of Pluses, it's a harder decision. I decided to go with dual Pluses and know that I won't need more before quite a while. With a single Ultra, well, you run the risk of wanting duals anyway and ending up like CR with dual Ultras biggrin.gif
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