Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 324

Maybe.

The most valuable truism in audio is that the most important quality of reproduction is that it sounds good to you, not that you have accurately reproduced the mixing engineer's studio.

I doubt any of us bought an SVS sub so we could turn the nasty bass down, hence the frequency with which you see people talk about running their subs "hot", i.e. turned up above some balanced volume (even if they then turn it back down to avoid getting divorced or evicted).

That's the tricky part: tuning for the room. On the one end of the scale you are building the room with wall and corner treatments, furniture, etc. and are running around with an expensive SPL meter while running test tones and frequency sweeps. On the other you tune by ear (assisted by your receiver) in the area in which you sit because that's the only place it matters.

As the discussion in thread indicates, you may start at one end of the scale, but in time you have at least dual subs on home made risers and are posting plots of your FRs. Along the way don't forget to enjoy your sound even though you know it could be ever so slightly better.

The shipping cost is indeed extremely steep but I guess it's to be able to offer flat-rate shipping anywhere in Canada. It's true that duty is effectively zero (I've bought speakers in the US before and even though they're supposed to carry 6% duty according to what I understand of the import rules, I never got that, and people I know never had this applied, even if the american-branded speakers were in fact built in China). However you must pay GST on product entering the border, and each province is free to tax imports as well. Guess what: most do! In my case, that would carry an added 15% -- close to $200 more per vanilla FV15HP. (The exact figure is US$ 191.25) Thus the cost of tax + shipping for me on dual FV15HPs would have been $1026.50. I prefer spending my money on actual subwoofage.

You will probably counter that I also had to pay tax on the SVS. Right. There was the 5% GST... and that's all as I'm not in Ontario. Plus, I'm a repeat customer at SonicBoomAudio, which is good for a 5% discount, so that cancels out. The SVS are thus much more attractive financially for me (although I compared the FV15HP to the Plus, not the Ultra -- having dual Pluses gave me all that I will ever need at my current place in terms of subwoofage). You say the Ultra is the "cheapest / least output". Well it's not technically true: at $2k it's more expensive than the vanilla Funk 18.0C. It's indeed very good looking and in a 2k$ piece of equipment, looks is not negligible. A piano black FV15HP with silver driver will add $275 to its price, entirely for cosmetic purposes.

In Canada, the SVS will not come with the same super warranty as in the US. But it does come with a 3-year warranty, 1-year lemon warranty and 45-day no-question-ask return period, which is probably way better than what you'll be able to get from Rythmik in Canada. The Plus and Ultra Sledge amps are also renowned and include PEQs if you need to do a quick EQ. So for someone in Canada it's pretty hard to recommend the Rythmik over SVS in my opinion.

The Funk Audio is another thing completely. Nathan Funk is an active member of these forums and seems to be quite a dedicated and open person. People here seems to really appreciate their subs and I for one dream of being able to afford one of its higher-end offerings some day. The fact that they're made in Canada makes me want to support Funk Audio; but also it makes it a financially attractive proposition (5% GST for me for example, and lower shipping costs for most models compared to the US pricing). I think most of the Funk Audio models are pretty high-end. The home-made drivers (TSADv1) looks like an absolute beast, but all of the 18" drivers offered by Funk can be driven with very serious amps. A 2.4kW amp with a 18" driver is not in the Ultra's league at all. I don't know much about Funk in general or the 18.0C in particular, but you'd more or less buy a custom sub depending on the options that interest you. If I go the Funk route one day I'll just mail Nathan and explain what my budget is and what my goals are, and work out the best solution from there, both technically and cosmetically. For the price of an Ultra though, I think I'd go with something like the 15.3 with the more powerful amp option. But who am I kidding. I would wait and pile up enough money for a pair of 18.0

I think you could always try to justify running the sub hot I do the same but I'm not actually sure they're that hot since they sound so much better this way.

First, Audyssey could be a tad off. Many calibration routines including Audyssey and Pioneer's MCACC, are known to produce sub levels that are actually a bit lower than the recommended levels.

Second, if the sub is not perfectly EQed, and there's a peak remaining, you have to remember that sub level is measured on a very large frequency range. The sub level will be lowered so that in *average* the target SPL level is reached. In the presence of a peak, the whole baseline is lowered and the bass feels lacking. That's why EQing sometimes sound so good: with peaks removed the baseline SPL can be set higher.

Third, if you measure sub level by hand using an SPL meter, beware: some SPL meters grossly overestimate SPL in the bass region. For example at 20 Hz, the RadioShack SPL meter is supposed to be 7.5 dB too high; i.e. the meter shows a 75 dB reading but it's in fact only 67.5 dB at that frequency. Of course the situation is not as bad on the entire sub frequency range and the SPL meter should always be used with a proper calibration file, but barring that, the average SPL reading when playing a sub test tone could be a few dBs off on some meters.

Fourth, I'm all in favor of a smooth transition between the mains and the sub. I think on my setup, it's very hard to notice when the mains are playing vs the sub when listening to bass players such as Esperanza Spalding -- the electric bass spans a huge range of frequency and can dig down to about 40 Hz so the sub is responsible for a whole octave there. Yet, we perceive a flat frequency response as lacking bass because our ears don't respond that well to the lower bass. That's why many use a house curve in their EQ, with for example a +6 dB shelf under 30 Hz and a gentle slope down to 80 Hz to compensate for that. And anyway... Below 30 Hz there's no voice, instruments, etc. Only electronic bass and special effects; the need to have a perfectly balanced setup is not as critical there. Around 20 Hz it's all rumbles and seismic waves anyway. Who cares if they're a bit more present than what the sound engineer had in mind

I *think* I qualify for the designation "elder," but I'm not promising the "wisdom of an elder."

I have, basically, the same sub as you (the PC12-NSD) and I just replaced my Pioneer receiver with an Onkyo 717 that employs the Audyssey calibration. All I can say is that I'm floored by how awesome my system sounds after the calibration, with TIGHT and ACCURATE bass that is much richer than it ever sounded with the Pioneer's MCACC calibration. Is it possibly a wee bit hot...perhaps, but I'm somewhat of a basshead and I'm lovin' it. I still have a *balanced* sound (though there is most definitely more impact and slam than before) and I'm planning to "leave it as is" unless I run into unforeseeable problems down the road. I agree wholeheartedly with AJCxZO when he says, "the most important quality of reproduction is that it sounds good to you."

Let me add that I listened to some of my Trance CDs last night and I was hearing bass that I'd never experienced before. I was in AUDIO NIRVANA and it was really hard forcing myself to go bed when the sandman called.

I think you have the correction backwards. You add the correction to the reading, so for a 20 hz tone, you would add 7.5db to what your meter shows when using c-weighting. ie: if you are reading 75db @ 20 hz, it is actually 82.5 db.

At least, that is how I have been doing it, but I could be wrong, its been known to happen.

Source and source.

Thank you all for your thoughts!

neutro, the "smooth transition between mains and sub" point that you raise is interesting, and gives me something I can do with my ears. I'll need to play some content with lots of low-end and give this some time.

Also, I'll need to investigate SPL meters. It sounds like I will inevitably become one of those crazy people, but maybe I can delay it a bit.

Yeah, the emoticon saved me again!

I think I mentioned before here that my top two subwoofers on my buy list were the SVS Ultra and the Rythmik FV15HP. Yes, the FV15HP is indeed a great subwoofer and there are many happy customers reporting great things on this sub.

I guess it was fate the one that put on the SVS path by finding a really great deal on the PB12-Plus and then on my first Ultra and the same thing happened for the second one. So, a lot of admiration and respect for the Rythmik subs here!

But still, I'll keep my eye on you, just in case you are trying to do something crazy...........

Well Pio's MCACC does not EQ the sub (it only sets the overall level). I'm really curious about Audyssey; but in the mean time, I use an external EQ solution and yes, depending on the severity of the peaks and valleys in your frequency response, EQing the sub can do wonders. Without EQ I have a huge peak (several dBs) spanning maybe 10 Hz around 45 Hz. Peaks are what prompts you to turn the bass down because it hurts the ear or it swamps everything. When the frequency response is reasonably flat, it seems to me that I can listen at arbitrary high volumes and bass is never a problem (for me, highs are the limiting factor; very loud rumbles are still rumbles while very loud crashes hurt my ears).

Darn. I might be running my subs a bit hot after all
You're absolutely right.
But what's 15 dB between friends.

Still, since we calibrate volume with pink noise, and the SPL meters integrate that and is off for different values at different frequencies, the raw reading for bass is just not that reliable. Better use REW's reading while the proper calibration file is loaded. Not 100% sure but it may perform the FFT, apply the calibration and then integrate the result to produce the SPL reading. If it's not the case then maybe it should...

Yes -- I think it's one of the more crucial point and you can't really do that with a movie. You need music where a single instrument -- preferably a real instrument whose timbre you're familiar with -- plays above and under your crossover point (80 Hz). Electric bass is probably ideal for that but I guess several other instruments would be interesting too. Contrabass, organ... I think I also read a review where the writer used drum kicks to adjust sub level (and also delay/phase), since the impact on the drum is "high bass" / low mids (above 80 Hz) and skin resonance is below 80 Hz. I'm not nearly audiophile enough to be able to judge subwoofer integration by the sound of kick drums but I find the general idea appealing.

As for balance below the cross-over, I mentioned a few times already in this thread my favorite tune for that, and I'm sorry for the frequent readers for repeating myself whenever the occasion presents itself. But... Daft Punk's "Emotion" is simply superb for that, as most of this very repetitive tune consists in a bass line of four notes that span the 40 to 80 Hz range. I'm pretty sure DP's intent was for those four notes to sound about equally loud and I consider my EQ done when this is the impression I get.

I can assure you my Pluses are not going *anywhere*.

And... I'll be able to watch full movies at the volume I want very soon. Only a few days now...

What are you doing with your family?!?!?!?

Muahahhahha!!!

Lol... I'm undergoing some minor surgical procedure on Monday and I'll be likely perhaps two days at home resting while my GF will be at work and the young one at the kindergarden. Surgery is nothing to be worried about and at the same time I'll *have* to rest a bit. You can't know how much I look forward to those couple of days

Best cure for a speedy recovery.......movies with tons of bass!!

Well, I just have a mix of feelings here: sorry to hear that you will have to go into surgery, but on the other hand.........you lucky @#%!&*

Wishing you all best and a fast recovery!

War of the Worlds, Cloverfield, How to Train Your Dragon, Tron: Legacy, 9, etc. etc.....here we come!!!

As I watch movies at a reduced cadence since we got our first child, I'll concentrate on my "blu-ray pile of shame" -- movies that I haven't seen yet, no re-runs for me -- and also on movies that are of no interest to my GF. But above all, movies that are enhanced when watching loud. Plot issues will be neglected (I'm quite picky but I won't be next week).

The first on the pile will be "The Raid: Redemption". Then: "Cabin in the Woods". If I have enough time I'll try to go through Clash and Wrath of the Titans, Battle: Los Angeles... Maybe also "13 Assassins" which is supposed to be impressive; "Pan's Labyrinth" and the extended version of "Red Cliff" are also in the pile. I won't be able to clear it that's for sure, but if I can watch even just two of those at a good volume I'll be very happy.

Cabin in the woods is a good one. But I suggest putting wrath and battle:la up higher so you can make sure you see them.

Now I gotta rewatch a few movies with my new svs half brother

Yeah well I'm hopeful for at least B:LA
So did you already got your PSA? Can we talk about it in this thread? Do you discuss it elsewhere? Please compare / post pics

I have it. So far I have only spl leveled it so no audyssey. That comes tonight

Also I will watch nemo tonight I am sure for my little one. The true paces will be this weekend.

S far though it seems much tighter with music and definitely can tell its a larger driver. It's eird caused keep looking for a grill to rattle. And there isn't one lol. I did play game over and only at -10 and my wife looked at me and said "really" hahah. She also said so. Every time you get a new sub I take it they will increase in size? Hahaha I said yeah pretty much and she was like...ok....win for me hahah

But so far so good with this sub. I truly believe at this point all of these subs are outstanding. Just for my situation with the grill problem and my son this was my best solution. I will let you know more after I hit up the usual suspects.

Here's a quick phone pic

Wow that sub is massive, but it fits so good in your setup, almost level with the furniture! Interesting that you find it "tighter" with music. So it's a down-firing 15" driver is it? How was the experience with PSA? It seems you got it quite fast. Also I love how your wife seems to have given up on reasoning you.

However I watched "The Usual Suspects" recently and while it's an awesome movie there isn't much bass in it

Seriously given how you were ecstatic about the PB12-Plus, it seems to me that if you like it "much more" (though it's not necessarily what you meant by "much tighter" -- maybe it just got more upper bass?), then SVS will have to adjust its offering and/or PSA will be very appreciated in these forums.

What about chest thump ?

As a side note, I asked a colleague who owned a 12" Paradigm sub (not the SUB 12 but still a big one) before and he said he did got plenty of chest thump (this coming from a techno music aficionado). He also said he was using it with a 150 Hz crossover though. I think this is the key...

The bass with music just seems more controlled. I really haven't had a chance to see about chest thump. I never have really experienced it in the home to be honest.

Psa has been incredible to deal with. Super super fast response time for emails and honest answers. I paid for the xv15 at 1 pm and it was on the truck at 4 pm.

Got it two days later.

Again. I will never bash svs. They are also incredible subs and incredible CS. Just time to move on as the grill was not good for me.

But so far so good w the xv15. Which I was told by Tom is an equivalent to the pb12+

Yah bass in most music now is more controlled as most music now is mastered to have very little dynamics... it's the similar to turning on Midnight mode or whatever is your AVR. If you look at the digital waveforms of music now it's all brickwalled to the maximum. I hope this trend stops in the near future. It's really killing the sound quality in modern music!

I think he was speaking about "now" as in "now with the XV15 compared with the PB12-Plus", not really "nowadays compared with the 70's"

Correct lol

Although of course Shadowdane is absolutely right about dynamic range in modern recordings.

Just played Darla scene from nemo. Much more clean output from the xv15 than the pb12. Much more in line of the output I had from my svs cs20-39+

I would definitely agree with Tom sediments that the xv15 is the equal to the pb12+

I will have a more detailed comparison this weekend after I
Hit up the reference five star movies.

Interesting, although the problem is also to define "cleaner output" and "tighter". You'll have to make a REW measurement
Also please test "Bass, I Love You" for us, I think you're in for a ride

Are you writing this with autocorrect enabled on a smartphone or tablet again? Tom's *sediments* lol
I don't really doubt the verdict considering the XV15's specs. Also I just noticed it got reviewed last December at Audioholics and got measured at data-bass.

The nice thing with data-bass.com is that you can compare measurements with other subs. Alas the PB12-Plus was not measured by data-bass; only the NSD and Ultra series are. The measurement shows the same performance as the PB12-NSD at 20 Hz but more low-end extension and much more output in mid-bass. The base response has a wide peak centered at 50 Hz (really from 30 to 80 Hz) which may account for your comments on music. If EQed the sub will be more balanced and use that output capability as headroom in that band.

It has almost the same response than the Epik Empire in fact, except that the empire's FR curve continue to raise at high bass above 50 Hz instead of dropping. Thus the added power and driver in the Empire mainly comes at play above 50 Hz.

The 50 Hz peak almost matches Ultra's output at that frequency. However the Ultra has (predictably) the advantage below that down to 16 Hz where the performances are equal (with the Ultra tuned to 20 Hz). This makes me believe that the Plus would probably have more output than the XV15 at 20 Hz but the XV15 would have more output than the Plus at 50 Hz.

Very impressive sub, especially when considered the price (shipping included) and the fact that it is built in the US.

When are you buying the second one again?

I am definitely getting a second one. When I don't know.

And yes. Damn auto correct!! I am on my phone or iPad 95% of the time. I really need to turn that off lol

I don't know the bass just seems more controlled. It stops immediately when the source stops. For example the torpedo explosion scene in finding nemo. It abruptly ends. With the pb12 it made noise ever so slightly after the scene stops its rumble. With the xv15 it stops immediately.

Thanks for the extra insight to comparing it to a plus. I am happy any way you look at it. For no other reason as to not have to worry about the grill rattling and coming off

I will listen to bass I love you Saturday and report back

Considering the Audioholic review you sure have reasons to be happy. It's one hell of a sub for $800. Audioholics said that it was *so* close to pass their "extreme" room rating; and if it did it would have been the absolute cheapest sub to do it by a very large margin.

I approached the topic before but timidly and got no real answer. I'm trying again... If I were to try to run my dual subs in stereo mode, how can I do it with minimal modifications to my setup (and minimal purchases)? The two subs are PC12-Plus and are placed just inside my mains. Running them in stereo mode would allow me to raise the crossover quite a bit -- even if bass is localizable above 80 Hz the subs are left and right of the TV anyway.

The PC12-Plus does not have speaker-level inputs and outputs so I'd have to use the line level input/outputs. The most obvious way to do it would be to set an AVR to "sub: NO" and "Mains: LARGE", use the pre outs for the mains and send them to the subs, cross over in the sub and use the line level outputs to feed that into an amp and drive the mains with that amp. The problem with that scenario is that my current AVR doesn't have pre outs and I don't have a stereo amp lying around. I don't think I'll pursue the topic further if I have to buy a new AVR and an amp just to try stereo subs.

At first sight I don't see how to run stereo subs with my equipment but maybe someone has an idea? If not, I guess I should look at AVRs with pre outs if I ever want to upgrade. Are there AVRs out there where you can output to pre out, process the signal, and re-input the signal to be amplified? I've seen that on expensive stereo systems with separate pre-amps and amps (NADs) but never with AVRs. Maybe it would be cheaper, if an amp has to be bought, to go with a receiver that only does pre-amp and a separate 5-channel amp. Anyway if I have to invest thousands in such a setup, that will have to wait. In any case, I ought to try running with a higher crossover first and foremost to see if I like the results...

Hook your speaker output to the sub speaker in connections and then hook the sub speaker out connections to your speakers; daisy chain style. But unless you have a third sub attached to your LFE, pre-out connection, you'll lose the direct benefit of the LFE channel and you'll lose the ability to cross any signal away from the AVR amplifier to your sub amplifier as, my understanding, all signals will be passed equally to the sub and the rest of the speaker system because the sub is now part of the speaker system as opposed to being separate.

What's up with wanting to run stereo subs as opposed to using your LFE pre-out and simply porting the <80Hz content to the subs?