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post #9721 of 10596
1/18/13 at 9:07am
Can't hook the "speaker output" daisy-chain style because:
  1. if going speaker-level, the SVS subs don't have speaker-level inputs nor outputs
  2. if going line-level, my AVR doesn't have pre outs, and even if it had, I'd have to route the output from the subs to an amp before going to the speakers. At first sight it seems like the only solution but I'm wondering if there's another.

Benefit of the LFE channel: when you set your AVR to run without a sub, it will send all LFE to speakers set as LARGE. In that scenario I'd use the crossed-over combination of my subs and front mains as "LARGE" speakers. LFE would be routed equally to the left and right sub; bass from SMALL speakers would be redirected equally to the LARGE speakers, and bass from the front speakers would be stereo.

What's up wanting to run stereo: generally speaking we use a 80 Hz crossover to limit localization of bass. However as my dual subs are now located in a stereo configuration, it's not as much of a problem, and I guess the Pluses are better speakers to reproduce sound up to even 150 Hz than my towers with 6.5 in woofers. One of the goal would be to get more of the chest thump effect, which I believe is found above 80 Hz.
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post #9722 of 10596
1/18/13 at 9:10am
Does your AVR have a tape monitor out or just a monitor out with LR and Video? If so use those.

What is your AVR?

Athanasios
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post #9723 of 10596
1/18/13 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

if going line-level, my AVR doesn't have pre outs

Looking at your equipment list, your Pioneer VSX-1020-K has a subwoofer pre-out and bass management ability. confused.gif
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post #9724 of 10596
1/18/13 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Looking at your equipment list, your Pioneer VSX-1020-K has a subwoofer pre-out and bass management ability. confused.gif

Right but he wants to do a stereo set up of the Subs. Using a L and R line level to the subs then out form there to an external amp for his L and R speakers is the best option.


Athanasios
Edited by nashou66 - 1/18/13 at 9:48am
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post #9725 of 10596
1/18/13 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

Right but he wants to do a stereo set up of the Subs. Using a L and R line level to the subs then out form there to an external amp for his R and R speakers is the best option.

"R and R speakers?" confused.gif

Sounds like there isn't a solution as the subs and AVR won't accommodate his desires and an AVR/subwoofer upgrade is in order so as to get where he wants to go.

New AVR with full set of pre-outs.

Three new subs with speaker level connections; two for stereo and one for LFE channel.

Based on reading what I'm reading above, this seems like the only rational solution.

The alternative is to "Y" split the pre-out signal to both subs, place the subs, as is already the case, next to the mains, simply cross at 80Hz and be done with it.

.....confused.gif
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post #9726 of 10596
1/18/13 at 9:47am
oop's I meant L And R .

His AVR has a zone 2 out, so he could use those for the external amp.( Page 30 of the manual)

It should work. Unless he is already using that for a second Zone.

Athanasios
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post #9727 of 10596
1/18/13 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

oop's I meant L And R .

His AVR has a zone 2 out, so he could use those for the external amp.( Page 30 of the manual)

As the saying goes: Worth a try. tongue.gif
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post #9728 of 10596
1/18/13 at 10:39am
The AVR indeed has analog outputs such as a tape monitor, but, as it is the case on most AVRs, those can only repeat analog inputs. Digital inputs such as HDMI inputs are not DAC'ed to the monitor outs. Furthermore those outputs work on analog stereo source only -- they are not pre outs for the L and R channels.

Good try with the Zone 2 option but of course there's a catch. In my AVR, zone 2 is analog stereo only biggrin.gif

The "solution" with the Y splitter from the sub pre out, of course, is how my dual subs are currently configured. This is a dual "mono" subs setup. I think I'd have to buy lots of gear to try the stereo option... I was just hoping I'd forgotten something.

Anybody has tried stereo subs with SVS products? Is it worth it?
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post #9729 of 10596
1/18/13 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I was just hoping I'd forgotten something.

The location of your Denon, 4311ci?

Quote:
Anybody has tried stereo subs with SVS products? Is it worth it?

I'm running a pair of mono subs that are essentially "Y" split inside the AVR and then cabled out to the subs so I can't say if it's worth it or not.
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post #9730 of 10596
1/18/13 at 12:17pm
i was wondering if a pb12nsd would have too much output for a 1600 sq.ft.. room
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post #9731 of 10596
1/18/13 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlb48 View Post

i was wondering if a pb12nsd would have too much output for a 1600 sq.ft.. room

If a standard 8' ceiling, you'd have a 12,800^3' room which is a "MONSTER" size room and if your dimensions are accurate, I'd say not a chance of there being too much output.
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post #9732 of 10596
1/18/13 at 12:36pm
If perhaps you mean 1600 cu. ft. room then it's the same size as mine. It's small but the PB12-NSD would be absolutely perfect. On the other hand, there is no such thing as too much output. Instead we say "adequate headroom". That's why I went with dual PC12-Pluses biggrin.gif
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post #9733 of 10596
1/18/13 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

If perhaps you mean 1600 cu. ft. room then it's the same size as mine. It's small but the PB12-NSD would be absolutely perfect. On the other hand, there is no such thing as too much output. Instead we say "adequate headroom". That's why I went with dual PC12-Pluses biggrin.gif

I have a 1550 cu. ft. room, and a PB12-NSD which is relatively new. I can't give you definitive answers, because I'm still dialing it in. But I will say this: (1) I had to dial the gain all the way down to about 9 o'clock to get Audyssey to agree that it was within 1dB of level, and (2) the power of the thing is simply amazing. I'm not a crazy bass-head like some of the insane people on this thread -- I just want to have good, deep sound when called for. For this task, the PB12-NSD is far more than what I probably need, and so far it's awesome. smile.gif
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post #9734 of 10596
1/18/13 at 1:54pm
My goals were the same: good, deeeeeeep bass, but mainly at moderate volumes, and as uniformly as possible over many locations as the setup is often used to play music while people are seated all around. Even at low volumes, I catch people grinning when they hear guttural 40 Hz content even in soft loungy music. The uniformity requirements is what called for dual subs; the deepness is why I went with variable-tuning Pluses. Also I wanted to be sure to have a worthwhile upgrade from my SB12-NSD and was not 100% convinced that the PB12-NSD was a sufficiently large step up.

Thus I ended up spending waaaay more than any sane person should for dual Pluses in a 1600 cu. ft. room. You'll notice that nowhere I mentioned output. The SB12-NSD -- which has much less output than the PB12-NSD at 20 Hz -- was sufficient for me about 90% of the times. Only when I wanted to push things just for kicks or demos did I reach the sub's limit. I probably wouldn't have hit the limits of a single PB12-NSD. Yet, it's often those 10% of times that are the most interesting. So I figured that the dual Pluses, at least, would always keep up with the rest of my setup. And they do, of course -- the untapped output is there as an insurance that I won't ever need more biggrin.gif

So no, PB12-NSD is not "too much" for a 1600 cu ft room!
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post #9735 of 10596
1/18/13 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

The AVR indeed has analog outputs such as a tape monitor, but, as it is the case on most AVRs, those can only repeat analog inputs. Digital inputs such as HDMI inputs are not DAC'ed to the monitor outs. Furthermore those outputs work on analog stereo source only -- they are not pre outs for the L and R channels.

Good try with the Zone 2 option but of course there's a catch. In my AVR, zone 2 is analog stereo only biggrin.gif

The "solution" with the Y splitter from the sub pre out, of course, is how my dual subs are currently configured. This is a dual "mono" subs setup. I think I'd have to buy lots of gear to try the stereo option... I was just hoping I'd forgotten something.

Anybody has tried stereo subs with SVS products? Is it worth it?

I'm contemplating doing this with my PB1000's .

They have Line level ins and outs. My adcom 5503 amp is on the front sound stage with my Center channel on top of it for now till I make a proper stand for it.

I was thinking of feeding the line level's that go to the 5503(L and R) to each sub and then back to the amp.
I bet it will sound pretty good.

So far I only placed one Sub in my large theater and I must say it is more musical than I thought for a ported sub.

I used the AIX HD sampler disc that came with my Oppo BD player to set the sub level since my old Adcom GTP830 does not play test tone through the sub
channel. Stupid if you ask me. But i dialed it in and watched the music sample on the BD. very very nice. Then I watched parts of Star Wars a new Hope and this single sub Rocked!!!
I previously had a Velodyne VA 1210 that only went down to 35hz. I then put in Stellestar* CD in and listened to the whole thing. Lots of nice bass lines on that CD. I'm not into Thumping Music
so I can not say how that sounds. But musicaly this is a nice little Sub, even for my 3900 Cubic foot theater.

So Should I test out the stereo set up? biggrin.gif

I can't wait till I have some more time.

Athanasios
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post #9736 of 10596
1/18/13 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

The AVR indeed has analog outputs such as a tape monitor, but, as it is the case on most AVRs, those can only repeat analog inputs. Digital inputs such as HDMI inputs are not DAC'ed to the monitor outs. Furthermore those outputs work on analog stereo source only -- they are not pre outs for the L and R channels.

Good try with the Zone 2 option but of course there's a catch. In my AVR, zone 2 is analog stereo only biggrin.gif

The "solution" with the Y splitter from the sub pre out, of course, is how my dual subs are currently configured. This is a dual "mono" subs setup. I think I'd have to buy lots of gear to try the stereo option... I was just hoping I'd forgotten something.

Anybody has tried stereo subs with SVS products? Is it worth it?

Well its a bit pricey and a new AVR would be a better answer but Gfen makes this

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=8202

http://www.gefen.com/pdf/GTV-AUDDEC.pdf

Neat product for someone who doesnt want to get rid of a legacy pre/pro that has no HDMI.

Athanasios
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post #9737 of 10596
1/19/13 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

My goals were the same: good, deeeeeeep bass, but mainly at moderate volumes, and as uniformly as possible over many locations as the setup is often used to play music while people are seated all around. Even at low volumes, I catch people grinning when they hear guttural 40 Hz content even in soft loungy music. The uniformity requirements is what called for dual subs; the deepness is why I went with variable-tuning Pluses. Also I wanted to be sure to have a worthwhile upgrade from my SB12-NSD and was not 100% convinced that the PB12-NSD was a sufficiently large step up.

Thus I ended up spending waaaay more than any sane person should for dual Pluses in a 1600 cu. ft. room. You'll notice that nowhere I mentioned output. The SB12-NSD -- which has much less output than the PB12-NSD at 20 Hz -- was sufficient for me about 90% of the times. Only when I wanted to push things just for kicks or demos did I reach the sub's limit. I probably wouldn't have hit the limits of a single PB12-NSD. Yet, it's often those 10% of times that are the most interesting. So I figured that the dual Pluses, at least, would always keep up with the rest of my setup. And they do, of course -- the untapped output is there as an insurance that I won't ever need more biggrin.gif

So no, PB12-NSD is not "too much" for a 1600 cu ft room!
thanks, i'm going to order a pb12nsd instead of a sb12nsd
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post #9738 of 10596
1/19/13 at 5:03pm
If you have the budget and do not fear the added volume, yeah its a good idea; though I feel I must say the SB12 is absolutely amazing, and gorgeous in piano black, for its small size.
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post #9739 of 10596
1/19/13 at 6:02pm
Neutro you know I loved my pb12. Well pm me and ill tell you about a little 15" sub OMG
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post #9740 of 10596
1/20/13 at 7:33am
My PB1000 is on track to be delivered tomorrow!

Quick question, I think I read it right that if I can't/don't want to use the LFE channel, I could go AVR to "High Level Speaker Level Input" then Line Level Out to Front R / Front L

But what's the input next to the LFE input?

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post #9741 of 10596
1/20/13 at 9:28am
It's just an I/O. You can plug into either input. As to the LFE thing, I don't have one labeled LFE so I'm no help there.

Here's a link to the PB-1000 user manual.

See page 7:

Line Level Inputs
These inputs are used for line level connections to the subwoofer. For a single
mono connection to an A/V receiver, use the R/LFE input. For 2-channel
applications, use both the L and R inputs.
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post #9742 of 10596
1/20/13 at 9:42am
Quote:
... I think I read it right that if I can't/don't want to use the LFE channel, I could go AVR to "High Level Speaker Level Input" then Line Level Out to Front R / Front L
With speaker-level inputs, you normally go:
- L+R speaker-level outputs from your AVR to L+R speaker-level inputs on the sub; and
- L+R speaker-level outputs from the sub to L+R speakers.

The PB-1000 has speaker-level inputs, but no speaker level-outputs, which likely means that you can run a set of wires from the L+R speaker-level outputs on your AVR to your speakers and a pair of wires from the same terminals on the AVR to the subwoofer.

The line-level inputs/outputs let you run a line-level pre-output connection to the sub, and then connect from the sub to a power amp (to which the L+R speakers are connected).
Quote:
But what's the input next to the LFE input?
The left-channel input of the line-level inputs.
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post #9743 of 10596
1/20/13 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

With speaker-level inputs, you normally go:
- L+R speaker-level outputs from your AVR to L+R speaker-level inputs on the sub; and
- L+R speaker-level outputs from the sub to L+R speakers.

The PB-1000 has speaker-level inputs, but no speaker level-outputs, which likely means that you can run a set of wires from the L+R speaker-level outputs on your AVR to your speakers and a pair of wires from the same terminals on the AVR to the subwoofer.

The line-level inputs/outputs let you run a line-level pre-output connection to the sub, and then connect from the sub to a power amp (to which the L+R speakers are connected).
The left-channel input of the line-level inputs.

Do you only get an active LFE channel when using the Line Level In?

What would happen if I went AVR > Speaker Level in, AND AVR's Sub-Out > Line Level in (LFE) at the same time?
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post #9744 of 10596
1/20/13 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Do you only get an active LFE channel when using the Line Level In?
To get LFE to the sub, run a connection from the subwoofer output on your AVR to the LFE input on the sub.
Quote:
What would happen if I went AVR > Speaker Level in, AND AVR's Sub-Out > Line Level in (LFE) at the same time?
Not sure what would happen:
- AVR speaker-level outputs to the sub's speaker-level inputs would send a full-range signal to the sub, and would require use of the sub's crossover to blend with the mains (to which, presumably, you've also run a set of speaker wires from the same terminals on the AVR).
- AVR's subwoofer output to the sub's LFE input would provide all the bass below the AVR's crossover + all content in the LFE channel. It might (or it might not) over-ride the sub's internal crossover.

But can the sub handle two different inputs at the same time? I'd check the manual or contact SVS to see if that's possible (or perhaps not recommended).
Edited by eljaycanuck - 1/20/13 at 2:40pm
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post #9745 of 10596
1/20/13 at 4:08pm
Ask SVS but I'm pretty sure you can't use both inputs at the same time. I'd guess a signal on the speaker level inputs enables them and disables the line level inputs.
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post #9746 of 10596
1/21/13 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak Gara View Post


What would happen if I went AVR > Speaker Level in, AND AVR's Sub-Out > Line Level in (LFE) at the same time?

240V consists of two 120V legs and a neutral return. It sounds like you're doubling up the signal in the same fashion as you're plugging in a speaker line out from the AVR and you're plugging in the subwoofer pre-out; two energy legs. Doesn't sound healthy.

What's your rational or need for doing this?
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post #9747 of 10596
1/21/13 at 6:14am
Quote:
240V consists of two 120V legs and a neutral return. It sounds like you're doubling up the signal in the same fashion ... ; two energy legs. Doesn't sound healthy.
I don't get the analogy. The signal to the LFE input is unpowered so, at most, there's only one "energy leg". I don't see how sending a signal to two inputs simultaneously is like sending 240V to a device that can only handle 120V.
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post #9748 of 10596
1/21/13 at 6:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I don't get the analogy. The signal to the LFE input is unpowered so, at most, there's only one "energy leg". I don't see how sending a signal to two inputs simultaneously is like sending 240V to a device that can only handle 120V.

Both pre-out signals have a low power signal. Maybe I used the line out term wrong. I'm meaning the speaker pre-out and the subwoofer pre-out. The other way, using the amplified speaker signal and the pre-out signal would also be a doubling up of power as one has the amplified speaker signal on two levels, the AVR's amplified speaker information and the subwoofer's amplified signal.

My guess, not a good thing.

Sorry if I'm not articulating my vision correctly.
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post #9749 of 10596
1/21/13 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What's your rational or need for doing this?

Just wondering which is best for music and which is best for movies. If music has no LFE channel, is the "speaker level in" (non-LFE) better for music?
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post #9750 of 10596
1/21/13 at 8:08am
Quote:
Just wondering which is best for music and which is best for movies. If music has no LFE channel, is the "speaker level in" (non-LFE) better for music?
Music may not have LFE, but it has bass, and with an AVR that does bass management, all the bass below the crossover point (in addition to any LFE content that might be present) is directed to the subwoofer output. And the subwoofer output is connected to the LFE input on the sub, so the sub gets all the bass (with or without LFE).
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