Official SVS Owners/Support Thread. - Page 334

SVS Owners,

I'm not quite an SVS owner yet but I am very close to becoming one. I am looking for any feedback regarding the PC12-NSD Cylinder Sub and the PB12-NSD. I plan to pair these with Triad Speakers. My room is approximately 3000 cubic feet. My original plan was to get Dual PB12-NSD but my wife likes the Dual PC12-NDS as it has a smaller footprint. With the amount of money I am spending on this setup I need to keep her happy.

In a room of this size would there be a noticable difference between either of these 2 subs? If you had to choose which sub would you pick for this room?

Thanks for your time,

Jim

Jim,

You should contact SVS directly. They have really good support, both pre- and post-sale. But that being said, my understanding is that the specs on those subs are basically the same, only the form factor is different. Also, I believe you will be happy with the dual subs. My room is closer to 5000 ft^3 and I use a PB12-NSD and a PC-12 Plus. I'm very happy with the results; I don't believe I'm lacking in bass at all. I should note that I'm using a Denon 4311ci (w/Audyssey XT32 and Sub Eq HT) to deal with my dual subs. With yours being matched (just the different form factors), it should be simpler to integrate them into your room.

I have no personal experience with either of these subs, however, they spec out very close to the same.
I have a single PC12-PLUS, and can say, if the NSD's are anything close, they will be more than impressive.

My single PLUS is in a room of similar size to yours, and well, it rattles the walls pretty good....To a point I needed to put in some drywall screws to keep the wall from rattling. PC or PB you will be in for a treat...

I believe there is something like a 1db difference between the PB's and PC's due to the PB's having a larger internal volume. It is highly unlikely you would ever notice a 1db difference when listening. So, while they may spec slightly differently, you won't notice it. Thus, keep the wife happy. :-)

The PC and PB versions are close enough in performance that the difference is not perceptible. They're in essence the same sub in a different form factor. Dual ported NSDs will have a tad more output than a single Plus, with the added benefit of a smoother frequency response and uniformity. However a single Plus, while taller, would be cheaper than dual NSDs, and can be tuned to trade output for a lower extension in 16-Hz tuning.

I personally think going duals is a good idea in a large room and if the budget allows it. If the budget and floor space is tight, and WAF is high enough for a single taller sub, a single Plus would be the logical fallback option. If budget is of no concern and WAF is unlimited, well, go crazy with dual Pluses or Ultras but dual NSDs would do a very nice job, and within the US, can be upgraded if needed anyway at no other cost than shipping them back (and paying the difference to the upgraded model of course).

Also, aesthetically speaking... While perfectly ok, the PB12-NSD only has a black vinyl option. The metal grill is awesome though. But I think the black fabric on the PCs will look better than the black vinyl. The top grill on the PC is perfectly functional, sturdy, non-vibrating, but not as impressive as the front grilles on PB subs. The PC12-Plus, which I have, is no match against the beautiful finishes (black oak / black piano) of the PB12-Plus however in my opinion, and that alone could justify the $300 price difference.
Edited by neutro - 2/18/13 at 12:22pm

I just love this pb12-plus it is amazing. I don't think 2nsds will match maybe more output but the bottom end of this plus is amazing. It's like feeling earth tremors. And so musical as well.and good looking to.

^^^
I know exactly what you mean....it's really an amazingly engineered piece of equipment and my prized piece of home theater gear.

I recently bought used MBS-01 speakers. How do I know if it has version 2 crossovers? I opened it up and the crossovers doesn't show v2 anywhere.

I'd email SVS with the serial numbers, they should be able to tell you definitively.

I think the ported NSD and Plus will have roughly the same FR shape and extension (but more output for the Plus, and/or more headroom). That is, if the Plus is tuned to 20 Hz. Dual PB12-NSD or PC12-NSD therefore should have the same extension and output, and perhaps a bit more, than a single PB12-Plus or PC12-Plus. However, the Plus can be tuned to 16 Hz and while the peak SPL is not as high, peak response is then something like 17.5 Hz, so there's still usable output even below 15 Hz. I did not even try 20 Hz tuning yet on my Pluses.

Thanks JJ7, ceh383, Snowmanick and Neutrof for your responses. We have decided to go with the PC12-NSD. I think they will look awesome once I complete by HT.

Congrat's. Great sub.

Awesome, you will enjoy them...

Please report back as soon as they're set up!

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the PB12-NSD has a completely different finish than the other three PB models? I am really close to pulling the trigger on a new SVS sub, but this really bothers me. I just live chatted with customer support about it asking why and if there was any way to custom order a different finish and was not impressed with the response/attitude I received from the rep.

It sure would be nice to have the same piano black option as the SB12-NSD. But I think having only one finish available -- admittedly a cheaper one also -- is why the PB12-NSD can be offered at that price. We can argue about it being the best bang for the buck or not, but the PB12-Plus for example, which has two gorgeous finishes available, is also twice the price. A nice finish on a big box can be expensive -- for example I think Rythmik charges $200 for the black glossy finish on the FV15-HP.

I'm pretty sure it would be very difficult and/or ridiculously expensive do to a custom finish on a sub-$1k sub.

While I agree with some of that, the piano black is usually more expensive than the black oak. And the other 3 subs in their PB line all come in black oak, so it is just odd that they would make this one in a dull flat black finish. I expect as much out of a $200-300 sub, but for $770 I am a little less impressed. Especially when I can buy the PB-1000 for $400 and it has a nice finish...

Well the PB-1000 and SB-1000 are new offerings and SVS probably did a market review and listened to potential customers as yourself. (They are $500 new, not $400 by the way). Yet black vinyl is a popular finish for subs as it is matte and black (see for example PowerSoundAudio subs).

Note that I personally find the black velvet on the cylinder subs a tad more attractive (although I admit I've only seen the PB12-NSD in pictures). So the PC12-NSD could be an alternative if you find black vinyl repulsive and if you don't mind the cylinder form factor. The polrted box and cylinder have the same output and extension within 1 dB SPL.

I have a PB12-NSD and noticed the finish treatment difference, too, but it didn't matter to me in the slightest. If I wanted something more elaborate, I would have moved up to a more expensive model.

I agree for 749 your getting one of the best bangs for the buck. If not the best. For 20 you could refinish it the way you want. I am thinking of carbon wrapping all my svs speakers.

BTW watched the movie silent house last night. And there is some extreme low bass through out the whole movie. Some of the best i have felt.

Hi Guys,

I recently got dual PC12plus and dual SB13plus. I also just recently acquired an AS-EQ1 connected to my Pioneer SC-LX86. From AS-EQ1 sub 1 out I use Y-adapter going to the dual PC12plus and from sub 2 out I also use Y-adapter going to the dual SB13plus. My question is... Based from your experiences, what are the recommended settings for the dual PC12plus and dual SB13plus(the crossovers, room comp, etc...)? I want to have more punch and chest pound on the midbass(40Hz - 80Hz) coz right now it seems that I'm just getting or feeling more on the rumbling of lows(30Hz below)...
Hoping for your responses... Thanks a lot!!!

P.S.
Unfortunately I can't relocate the dual PC12plus at the back as there is no more space...

Here's my front stage by the way

^^^
A few first steps.

Seal the PB12+'s ( you should have plenty of head room anyway)
Keep the LPF in your AVR/PrePro at 120hz
Make sure you main speakers are set to "Small"
Experiment with higher crossovers, ~100hz
Your AS-EQ1 setup sounds right, but if you are running the Plus's as ported currently, and or have any other EQ (PEQ/Room Comp) on, turn those secondary EQ's off and rerun the AS-EQ1.

As for room comp, what size room do you have, and is it sealed or are the curtains just dividing a larger room?

Hi All,
I though people might find this information interesting. I purchased a SVS SB13-plus in December 2012. These use the same STA-1000D digital amp as the SB13-ultra and PB13-ultra (I believe). The sub has a quiet hiss that you can hear when you get reasonably close to it (2 feet or so). It also never seems to go to sleep (power set to auto) even though the SMS-1 it is connected to is in standby. None of these are major issues and I’m very happy with the sub’s performance.

I was so happy with its performance that in late Jan 2013 I purchased a second SB13-plus. Unfortunately the amp died the first day of turning it on. The local SVS distributor here in Australia was very good and sent me a replacement STA-1000D within three days. Once I installed the new amp I noticed a couple of things:
1. The hiss was much quieter
2. The sub went into sleep mode
3. I had to turn the volume up to get the same SPL reading (from 12 inches). Original sub vol was -9. On second SB13-plus with new amp volume was -4 to match each other.

From what I can see this is a new revision of the STA-1000D. This has a lower gain, which seems to help it go to sleep and reduces the hiss. It however needs a higher volume to match the previous amp revision.

Regards,
Stephen

First of all, nice setup... it's not everyday that we see quad-sub setups. Any particular reason for that particular mix of models? As Snowmanick already said, you may have better luck setting the Plus to sealed mode so that they have the same basic frequency response as the SB13-Pluses. With the amount of headroom you probably have with those four subs, the AEQ-1 will surely be able to EQ that flat down to quite low at reasonable peak SPL. Or, you could also try running duals (either the two PC12-Plus, in either 16 Hz or 20 Hz tuning, or the two SB13-Plus) to see if you have a better EQ while using only one sub model.

Anyway, I have about the same "problem" as you, i.e. loads of output in deep bass but a comparatively shy chest thump effect, running dual PC12-Plus in a small room. (I say comparatively because I do get chest thump, just not as much as I would expect at the level I was testing). From discussions in this thread (and notably with Snowmanick) it seems that chest thump is no really found at 40-80 Hz. That octave seems responsible for what I call the "greasy bass" effect, which is very fun to hear and associated with the lower notes that an electric bass can produce, but provides little thump. A kick drum effect can be divided in two parts: the attack, i.e. the sound the hammer makes on the drum, and then drum skin resonance. Skin resonance is found very low, but the attack gives the chest thump effect and is probably found higher than the standard 80 Hz crossover. Therefore if your crossover is set at 80 Hz, your quad subs are not even contributing to the attack, only to the skin resonance.

Hence the advice to try a higher crossover (100 or 120 Hz for example). This is not advised in general because above 80 Hz, bass becomes localizable, and using a single sub, it can be jarring to have sound effects ostensibly coming from one specific location. But in your case, your subs are symmetrically positioned on your front stage, so at worst bass will appear to come from center-stage, which is not much of a problem. I myself am due to test 120 Hz soon but I can't find the time to manually EQ my setup (using REW + a BFD).

Also, I strongly suspect that DJs in clubs for example use an EQ which exaggerate chest thump in the first place (e.g. boost at 120 Hz or something like this). Some subs which don't have a flat EQ response also sometimes have a peak at higher frequencies, so that when pushed to their limits, they naturally exhibit a stronger response in the chest thump region. If you have a graphic EQ capability in your setup you could try boosting 100, 120, 150 Hz to see where the effect is stronger. Of course, 150 Hz is pushing it for the PC12-Plus; maybe what we really need are bigger mains

Thanks for that observation. In my case I have the reverse problem. Ed Mullen from SVS advises running the STA-800D and STA-1000D at the higher gain setting possible, reducing the sub pre out trim level at the AVR to compensate. With my dual sub setup I often have trouble triggering the auto on when I'm not listening loud. Sometimes I boost the volume a bit in order to trigger the sub before lowering it. Maybe I could raise the trim level and use the high-signal input instead. Anyway, as you say, it's pretty minor, and auto-on must have a threshold and it's hard to set it in the first place as you don't want it triggered by line noise either.

Hi Neutro,

I found your post really interesting. I've always though that the chest thumping bass was in the < 40Hz range. I now suspect that it is higher up as you say. On the weekend I recalibrated my two SVS SB13-Plus' using the SMS-1. This time I reduced the cuts in the 40-80Hz range to give a bit more output in that area and tried to get a smooth cross over between the subs and mains (I run floor standing B&W 683 mains). Below is the SMS-1 graph. I can't do much about the 45hz dip, but what I observed when watching movie scenes was much more "chest thump" than was there previously. Very satisfying.




I posted this on another forum and Ed Mullen responded confirming what I suspected. You can see Ed's reply here: sta-1000d-amp-revisions

Regards,
Stephen
Edited by whmacs - 2/26/13 at 12:25pm

My friend who is a DJ told me they heavily boost between 60-90Hz, usually about 10-12db boost. That gives the really heavy chest thump people expect at clubs.

[Edit]
Almost forgot to mention... also the Snare Drum is above the range of the subwoofer. The snare drum is pretty much a full range instrument, but the snap or thump of a snare is around 120Hz to 240Hz depending on the drum.


Edited by Shadowdane - 2/26/13 at 1:28pm

I'm not speaking with authority on the topic though, it's just that as my subs are EQed right now, I have gobs of output below 40 Hz and less chest thump than the DJ at my job's Christmas party was getting with a pair of JBL monitors. Hence my suspcion. Also, my 2-yo daughter really, really likes "Gangnam Style", and my initial setup had a peak at 50 Hz. What it does with "Gangnam Style" is really bring out that nodule of low bass texture at the end of the bass line, and it doesn't add much to the punch of the main beat.

In my case I'm running Energy RC-70s, which are decent floorstanding speakers but the dual 6.5" passive woofers can not in any way achieve the sheer displacement of SVS's 12" Plus driver backed with the STA-800D amp.

Another point I want to explore is the house curve I have set in my EQ. This is something I have always done since I had my SB12-NSD, but maybe I just don't need it now. The selected house curve places the 20-30 Hz region on a plateau about +6dB higher than 80 Hz (it's hard-knee slope between that). It's hard to see from your graph but you also seem to have 30 Hz a bit louder than 80 Hz. On my AVR, the sub out is not EQed but it *is* level-matched. However, the level measured from the sub out, through a test tone sent to the sub out (and thus the house curve EQing), is somehow a (possibly internally weighted) average from 0 Hz to the crossover frequency. In my case this average is skewed by the fact that sub-30Hz frequencies are played quite loud. So my AVR will lower the sub's trim level accordingly. Suppose the 60 Hz level is the average level; then the whole 60-100 Hz (my crossover is 100 Hz) region will actually be played quieter than the mains (above 100 Hz). To compensate I run the subs a bit hot, but I sure have a dip around 80 Hz, which probably doesn't help in appreciating chest thump. I think I should adjust sub volume manually after EQing using REW's real-time processing feature. Or, maybe it's time for me to EQ the subs flat and see how it sounds like again...

It's confirmed then

Ah-ha! Knew it! I thought it would be higher, but then again depending of the width of the EQ filter, it may affect a large swath of the bass spectrum. 10-12 dB is indeed a very large boost... That would sure not sound natural in a home theater. Also thanks for the chart.

Hello everyone,

Is there anyone that owns the PB12-NSD Sub paired with an Anthem MRX receiver. Would like to know your impressions, I also posted in the Anthem thread in hopes of getting some feedback.

I'm not familiar with Anthem MRX receivers but at first look they seems pretty standard in terms of how they connect to subs. Setup should be a breeze as bass management will be performed in the receiver. It's a matter of setting your speakers to "small", then adjusting the crossover frequency to your taste (begin with 80 Hz) and running the room correction routine (ARC on Anthem receivers). There is no reason to expect something other than fantastic results.