5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 41

I can vouch for that same numerical pricing range at Best Buy for the 6090 ... IF you ask for it! I don't know what the margins are, or care, nor do I wish to explain this and satisfy your skepticism.

Ooops. I said that wrong. Thanks for correcting my verbage.

I picked up the Denon AVR-887 from Circuit City last night. They actually had it on sale for $630. I had some gift cards which brought it down to about $600. Haven't had time to really dig into it yet though.

Cancelled my order with 6ave for the Onkyo 604. They wouldn't cancel it before telling me each time it was going to ship "tomorrow". Yesterday, they said it was shipping next week! Finally cancelled it without an issue.

For those of you with the Denon or something similar, do you guys use the auto-setup with mic to set up yours?

Yes we do

Not sure if this is the right thread, but I didn't want to start a new one just for this.

What is the importance (or nonimportance) of being able to pass video AND audio through HDMI? I see a lot of pre/pros and receivers I might want to buy that only pass through the video.

What does this mean exactly? What can and can't I do? From reading this board it seems like if I just want 5.1 compressed Dolby or DTS, I'm fine, since the digital audio cable can supply that. However, if I want true 7.1 (not upmixed through Dolby/DTS) or lossless audio, I WILL need audio capabilities through HDMI.

Is this correct? I'm just trying to get an idea of what I really NEED for when I upgrade. Thanks

Yes. You can't get the full quality of the new audio formats for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs via the traditional optical or coax digital audio connections. What you will get over those is a "compatibility" audio track intended to support older or less capable receivers. The compatibility track is basically at the level of DTS tracks found on standard DVDs. [The optical or coax cable will work fine for traditional Dolby Digital or DTS tracks.]

To get the full quality of those new format tracks for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray you must either use multi-channel analog audio connections (not available on all players or on all receivers) or you must use HDMI.

HDMI V1.1 or higher enables this if the player can decode the tracks to their component PCM and if the receiver "does the right thing" with that incoming PCM. HDMI V1.3 or higher enables sending the the undecoded tracks to a receiver that can do the decoding, but that will result in playback issues when playing a disc that has been authored expecting the player to do the decoding and subsequent mixing of audio. Either way, it is the HDMI receiver that does all the rest of the processing -- i.e., speaker configuration management, any audio post processing, and conversion of the digital audio to analog.

Multi-channel analog connections also require the player to do the decoding (like the HDMI V1.1 case above). In addition, the final audio quality is fundamentally dependent upon how well the player converts the digital audio to analog. It is often the case that the player will also have to do important additional processing such as speaker configuration management.
--Bob

I don't know.

I need a receiver for use with my PS3 and see a couple of you recommended the Yamaha HTR-6090 within the last page. Great. Rather than spending hours researching yet another A/V purchase, I just decided your recommendation on this model is fine (I'm sick of researching A/V gear!) I just need something to send the 1080p PS3 signal through HDMI...

I just talked to two of my local BB stores (in CT) about the Yamaha HTR-6090. CC doesn't carry Yamaha. I thought I'd give the local guys a chance since I see a couple of you claim you can get steep discounts through BB if you ask. Both stores quoted a price of $999. Since J&R has it for $699 including shipping, I would have been happy buying it locally for under $750 including our 6% tax. After taking with two sales guys and two managers, the best price these guys were willing to give me on the receiver was $950 w/o tax. What a joke! I don't mind paying a little more for local gratification, but $300+ dollars more??? Oh well...

Anyway, I looked online and saw several of the NY 'bait and switch' stores have the HTR-6090 for $629 plus ~$30 S&H. I called J&R to see if they'd match (or come close to matching) this price. The salesman at J&R pointed out these prices were not from authorized dealers. I told him I realized that, but $40 is $40. So I asked him what was the lowest he could go, knowing he works on commission. He ended up giving me the HTR-6090 for $675 including S&H. That price seemed more than fair to me so I placed the order. I've had excellent luck with J&R in the past so I thought I'd pass this along.


Now I just hope you guys steered me right on picking this model...

Bob, thank you a ton, your explanation makes sense and now I understand things a little better.

It seems for what I need right now, I wouldn't need audio pass through since regular Dolby 5.1 is fine, but if at some point I want to move to HD-DVD or Blu Ray, I will need either HDMI audio, or a player (receiver) with 5.1 analog outputs (inputs). Does this sound right?

Yes, I think you've got it. Another advantage of getting a receiver now that inputs at least the "normal" digital tracks over HDMI is that it can free up another optical or coax input socket for some other use.

But HDMI audio often comes with some unexpected downsides as well -- mainly due to the HDCP (copy protection) boot that's been clamped on to it.

For example, changing channels on an HDMI cable TV or satellite box will cause a new HDMI handshake to happen if the video output resolution changes. It will take a second or two to get the video going. If you are also bringing in audio on that HDMI it may take an ADDITIONAL second or two after that to get the audio going. Many folks hook up optical audio from those boxes to avoid that extra delay even though their HDMI connection is still used for video.

And for receivers that let you mix and match audio and video sources (watch TV while listening to a CD for example) you are likely to discover that you can't mix audio from an HDMI source with video from ANY OTHER source.

And when you want to just listen to audio from an HDMI source (such as when an HDMI DVD player is playing a CD through a receiver) you may discover the HDMI audio doesn't work unless you've got your TV turned on -- even though you don't want to watch anything. The source may mute things because it can't verify the copy protection while the TV is turned off.
--Bob

Wow, that sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

So many things to think about, it seems sometimes HDMI is more trouble than it's worth.

Again, thanks for the info.

Unless you like a high-bandwidth, one-wire solution.

One-wire is a pretty trivial benefit, but the high-res is the big thing. I'd suggest i.Link as a better alternative, but there aren't any HD players with it yet.

iLink is just about, if not, dead. Sony has stopped putting it on their TV's and didn't include it on the PS3. It's kind of a shame, too. I imagine I'll never use the 3 x iLink on my 60XBR1...

HDMI would have been great in an alternate universe without HDCP.

Just imagine though, in said alternate universethat has DVI/iLink standard on HDDVD and Blu-ray and all the new receivers...

I've received several PMs about who I got this deal through at J&R. The gentleman I spoke with was Rick at x1029. Tell him Scott sent you, he'll sell you the receiver for $679 shipped.

I hope this helps.

BTW, my receiver was shipped within three hours of my order being placed yesterday... great service and they are an authorized dealer.

EDIT: It just arrived!!! Not bad, the receiver is at my house within 28 hours after ordering... and they still haven't charged my CC yet!

I personally love the one wire solution. In fact that would be my number one reason to want HDMI. HDMI cables should be cheaper than a combination of component and digital cables.

All digital is also nice, in theory. Less chance of degradation.

I found component video to add only slightly improved performance over good composite cable. So I suspect I would not even notice the difference HDMI brings.

As for the audio advantages to lossless audio from high def players, I have not personally heard them. 128 AAC vs the orignal CD sound the same to me when played from my macboock to Grado SR 60 headphones. So I suspect I might not be able to hear the difference between lossless and DD/DTS. But I was willing to spend money on a receiver which could do 7.1 HDMI/PCM so I have the option.

In summary, I think the AV improvements HDMI brings might be subtle, but getting rid of wires makes me happy.

Ilink is rare, but it pops up in surprising places, like the current top-line Marantz AVRs.


ilink is copy protected too, isn't it? That's why it can pass SACD and DVD-A.

I've had ilink one-cable audio connectivity for awhile, and more recently HDMI audio/video. I hope never to go back to analog cables.

If true, this sounds like trouble for the Sherwood-Newcastle R-972 shown at CES 2007 and coming in August, 2007. It has the Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio codecs on board. Why won't this receiver have problems if what you say here is true? I am sending your comment here to Jeff at Sherwood-Newcastle for his consideration. Perhaps one can select on the 972 whether or not to have it decode the PCM audio signals. I hope so if you are right, because I intend to buy a 972.

If you are receiving high bandwidth, multi-channel PCM over the HDMI connection then the audio has *ALREADY* been decoded from the packed audio track (i.e., from the Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track). Either it was decoded in the player or the disc contained a raw PCM track that doesn't need decoding. The result of decoding is a set of digital audio PCM streams -- one per speaker. You can send this over HDMI V1.1 or higher to an appropriate receiver.

Decoding in the receiver is only necessary when you try to send the STILL ENCODED "bitstream" -- the TrueHD or DTS-HD MA data as it comes off the disc. This can be done with HDMI V1.3 or higher at both ends if the receiver also has decoders built in.

But "advanced content" discs won't work right if you do that. Such discs have to be decoded in THE PLAYER so that the player can do the audio mixing that's implied by such authoring. The receiver can't do that mixing because it can't see the various different streams of audio that need to be mixed.

Almost all HD-DVD discs are "advanced" today and that is likely to continue into the future. Blu-Ray discs are "basic" today, but the expectation is that Blu-Ray discs will start being authored for "player profile 1.1" -- which has the same sort of restrictions -- as early as this summer.

For playing such discs properly, you will need to buy a player which has decoders for the new, high bandwidth formats of interest to you -- or will be upgraded to add them.

The decoders in the receiver will still be useful for an HDMI V1.3 Blu-Ray player playing current titles. They may also be useful for other sources.
--Bob

it won't be "trouble" the decoders will just be unused. Selection - if available at all - will probably in the player (its the one that has to decide whether to put out encoded streams, or decoded PCM)

see this article on Dolby.com

Please excuse me for the stupid question, but what exactly does


mean for the level 3 and 4 recievers?

Does it just mean the 604 can't "process" the 5.1 stream into 7.1 or are there other "features" of the processing that I am missing?


Thanks!

That's basically it. The different classes of processing are described a few paragraphs above the definitions for the different levels in the first post of this thread.
--Bob

I read the definitions (among lots of other things) but just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

Thanks!

Yamaha HTR-5990 vs HTR-6090

I have a Denon AVR-2803 right now and was thinking of upgrading to a HDMI receiver. I have been looking at Denons and Onkyos, but I was at BB today and noticed two Yamaha receivers HTR-5990 and HTR-6090. They are both similar specs. Looks like 6090 is newer and costs $999, but I noticed people have gotten it lower at J&R, etc. They also had the 5990 at $599 clearance. They also had a open box which gets you a $100 gift card, no cash rebate. But I found a 20% off open box coupon online. There is also 10% off clearance on the new ones. The open box one is missing the manual (I think the remote is available). The HDMI ports in the back are scratched up. How does the 5990 compare to the 6090? How do these compare to the Onkyo 804 and Denon 2807?


Edit - I read through the online pdf manuals for 5990 and 6090. Looks like the hardware is pretty similar except for the following major differences (at least for me).

5990 can only do 32-96 kHz sampling rate for 5.1 channel LPCM through HDMI.
6090 can do 32-192 kHz sampling rate for 8 channel LPCM through HDMI

I only have a 5.1 channel system right now. Will this matter. How about 96 kHz vs 192 kHz? Will that mess up some of my Bluray disks? I don't want to not be able to take advantage of the LPCM track on bluray movies.

what do you guy's think about this arrangement?

Pioneer 5070HD
----HDMI #1: DVD (1080i upscaler)
----ANT: CABLECARD

Then getting a real nice set 7.1 speakers (e.g., SKS-HT740) and going with a decent (and inexpensive) 5.1 receiver to process the surround sound coming out of the Pioneer (via digital optical out, presumably.)

Then waiting out a year or so until things settle down and a good HDMI 1.3 receiver hits the market, then jumping on that and dropping it (and possibly an HDDVD/Bluray deck) into my existing arrangement as a turnkey 7.1 solution?

This way I don't get stuck with an early generation "level 5 or 6" receiver and being the guy that wished he had something else when they are (eventually) very common and inexpensive by the end of the year? To me, having a receiver with 7.1 over HDMI & TrueHD compatibility along side good 7.1 speakers seems like it would be a good place to "camp out" for the next 10 years.

Besides working under a "trying to catch a falling knife" / "the futility of futureproofing" mentality, where am I going wrong with this line of thinking? I'm sure it's somewhere.

Am I just being too smart by half here and should just go with an Onkyo 674 of that level 6 Denon and be happy with 90% perfection (i.e., no 7.1 over HDMI [Onkyo] or TrueHD [both]?

Any level 5/6 receiver is good enough. I used to think that doing bitstream would be necessary for the new audio formats, but the posts of Sanjay and a couple others, as well as my own reading have shown that HDMI 1.1 is fine for movies on both Blu-ray and HDDVD since their specs require decoding in the player anyways and 1.1 allowed multichannel LPCM.

1.2a is good enough for SACD and the audiophiles swearing by it. Deep color is a total non-factor since I'm it's not in the spec for either Blu-ray or HDDVD, nor is it reasonable to ever expect it on Cable/FIOS/Sat in at least the intermediate future.

I ended up choosing the Denon 4306. Denon's reply to me that they weren't going to do silver models for domestic distribution was just icing on the cake.

I guess my biggest concerns are:

1. those two new audio formats that no receiver yet supports (TrueHD?)
2. 7.1 over HDMI (which the denon can do, but the Onkyo can't)

I guess you are saying that #1 isn't a big deal, and that going with the Denon would solve #2.

Because I'm not so much hung up on HDMI 1.2/1.3's benefits as I am getting #1 and #2.

This is a great thread. Thank you.
One thing that is not clearly listed is what receivers are able to put out the uncompressed sound from a Blu-Ray HDDVD player. As I understand it is any of the class 4 receivers and above, but it may be helpful to have that written clearly in the opening post.
Thanks again.

I'm also thinking about purchasing the Onkyo 674 or the Denon 2307 to use with my PS3 and 5.1 set-up.
My speakers are small satellites, so which "different sounding" receiver would be best for my set-up?
My sony T.V. only accepts 1080i and 720p, so 1080p passthrough isn't important but will my T.V.'s DVI/HDCP compliant input cause any handshake issues with either receiver?
Also, do both receivers play PCM audio from blu-ray without any LFE "bug" issues or is this a problem for either receiver?

Is there a thread listing the receivers corresponding to each level discussed in the 1st post? There are 1 or 2 examples but what I would like to know my choices among receivers that can do PCM decoding over HDMI, 2-3 HDMI inputs & also, DVD-Audio & SACD over HDMI.

I won't be upgrading my DLP(720p) for the next few years so I don't see the immediate need for HDMI 1.3. I do not need surround decoding over HDMI(PCM). My sources are Oppo DV970, Dish Vip622 & a HTPC. I might buy either a PS3 or HDDVD player later this year. So I guess that would put me in the Level3 slot. Right?

It seems to me that the price difference between Level3/4 (which should be enough for me) & Level 5/6 is considerable. If I had a budget of about $800 & wanted better sound quality over features like surround processing(7.1), what receivers would you suggest?

I tried reading the posts on the various model threads here, but not all of them have specs listed, so I am not sure how to narrow down my choices.

Try going at it the other way. Pick a brand, look at the features for each model and see why level they fit into. It takes some research.