5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 45

Good advice, I apprecaite it. However, I don't want to have my system down for as long as it will take to have this shipped. Question.. won't circuit city price match this considering JR actually does have a retail store?

New Question... the folks over on the 604 owners thread are telling me I will get the new aduio formats with teh 604 but only in 5.1. that the two rears will not work. True or false?

True.

So this would make 7.1 usless with the 604. That's not a good thing.

Don't u need at least 6.1 to even achieve dts?

I brought the Pio home last night and got it all set up. It can store 6 different sets of speaker adjustments, so I just cranked up the sub by 10db in one of the memorys for use with incoming LPCM sources. I know this is just a workaround but with my ears it seems to have effectively solved the LFE glitch. It's a gem in every other aspect, even on regular dd and dts tracks I'm hearing stuff I didn't hear with my HK AVR-635, and it's 3 HDMI inputs have really simplified hookup.

Glad you like it. I don't have this receiver but am tempted to get one based on reviews. However, I got scared when I saw everyone pissing on Pioneer for not fixing the firmware fast enough. So, how to you switch between presets? Is it pretty straightforward or a long process? I current have the Denon 2803. I am happy with it even though the sound could be better in my L-shaped room. There is no autosetup in 2803. How good is the MCACC? That is the auto setup in the pio right. Also, the 2803 has no HDMI and I have the PS3 and am waiting to hear the lossless sound.

I have Klipsch reference series speakers. I wonder how the Onkyos compare to the Pioneer 82TXS.

The VSX-82TXS has the "advanced MCACC" which is quite comprehensive and did a fantastic job. I have one of those oddly shaped rooms with a "corner-to-corner" orientation which is kinda bad from an acoustic standpoint and the MCACC worked better than the auto setup on my previous HK AVR-635.

Once you perform the MCACC you can copy the results to one of 5 other memorys as a baseline, then go in and change settings in one of the memories. I copied the receiver's results into MCACC memory 2, then changed sub speaker level in the new memory by raising it 10db from the receiver's results.

As I said, this is only a workaround. I like to set all speakers to "small" and using this method I'm boosting all bass below the crossover point by 10db, not just the LFE. So this is not a dead accurate replacement for having the LFE right in the first place unless you run your other speakers as Large, in which case you would be boosting only the LFE.

I found that the separate memory would not store separate speaker size settings so for the sake of getting things exactly right for me with speakers set Small I decided to send the receiver in for the firmware updates.

I did call Pioneer with my firmware numbers and was told I could take the receiver to my local Pioneer servicer who would ship it to Concord CA for the update, as Concord is set up to do it right and others on this thread have reported good results from the Concord service place. I took it in late yesterday afternoon and should get it back in a week or so.

I didn't want to return it for a Denon 2807 as I really want the 3 HDMI inputs and am very happy with the sound quality from the Pioneer. I've had Denon in the past as well as previous Pioneers and really sorta prefer the sound from Pioneer products, as well as the user interface.

So right now I'm back to the HK AVR-635 until I get the Pioneer back.

If you're not in an area where you have access to a service center that can do the firmware upgrade you might be better served by the Denon 2807--seems to be one of the least expensive units capable of full processing that has no reported LFE problems.

I didn't consider Onkyo as none below the 1000 series (too expensive for me) can do DDPLIIx processing on incoming 5.1 LPCM, and it isn't clear what they will do with incoming 7.1 LPCM. I know there's only one piece of software that has 7.1 LPCM (a PS3 game) at this time but it's promised in the future for BD and HDDVD.

Some advice please. Here is my setup:
TV: 70" Sony XBR 2
Sony 5 Disc HDMI DVD player, Comcast HDMI HD PVR, PS3 via HDMI, SexBox 360 with HD DVD via component. Currently I am running all HMDI inputs to a Psychone HDMI switcher and optical from each unit to a Videostorm HMDI/Optical switcher (did so cause the Comcast audio cuts in and out via the Psychone switcher for some reason and the Video Store switcher has HDCP issues with the Comcast box causing it to loose resolution settings everytime you switch to another component). The audio is all thru my Yamaha YST 1000 soundbar. My room is about 16 feet wide by 40 feet long with the TV being about 8 feet from the TV. I am not satisfied with the simulated surround sound. The plan is to add actual surround speakers and a receiver to the mix. Ideally I want to run HDMI from each component except the SexBox 380 to the Psychone switcher and have one HDMI connector from it to the receiver and have the receiver split out and decode the audio while sending the video out via HDMI to the TV. I am not sure if I should send the SexBox 360 video in via a VGA to DVI to HDMI connection to the receiver and let the receiver send it to the tv or send in via component and let the receiver send out via HDMI. I read the SexBox 360 will only send 1080p HD DVD content via VGA which is why I would go the complicated route. I plan to send an optical out from the receiver to the Soundbar since it is already on the wall (a little extra sound should not hurt).

Which receiver would you all recommend and does my reasoning make sense?

Does the Sony 5200es apply processing like PLIIx to an LPCM signal from an HDMI source. I want a receiver that will allow me to add PLXII to a 5.1 LPCM signal from my PS3.

Does the Yamaha 6090 allow it?

They both will do PLIIX on top of LPCM. Well atleast the 3200ES did so I image the 5200 will as well. The Yammie definitely does.

thats good. As I want to put my 7.1 system into use. Just to make sure I understand everything correctly. The Sony will take a 5.1 LPCM track from a BD disc on my PS3 and I can apply PLIIx and get sound from all 7 speakers right?

Also between the Yamaha and Sony, what whould you recommend. I found some good reviews on the Sony but nothing for the Yamaha. Does the Sony or Yamaha suffer from the .LFE problems that some receivers have and if so can you manually boost the .LFE on the PCM input. Thanks for the help.

Everyone THANK YOU!

This has been a very informative thread. I dont think Ive ever spent 3 hours in a row reading in my life!!!

The theme that rings true throughout is really for true 7.1, no LFE issues, and 1080P go DENON. It seems no one has been able to give a definitive answer (unless I missed it) to whether the ONKYO 674 OR 804 will do 7.1.

Ive narrowed my search to these units:

Denon 887 or 987
Onkyo 804
Pioneer Elite 82

Any news on if and when the Pioneer LFE problems will be fixed? It seems that receiver is sweet, level 6 and somewhat future proof. I also like the look of it ALOT better than the other 2.

Onkyo 804 is on sale at JR for $679.99 so that makes it attractive.

I guess im looking for the final push towards one unit. OR help in justifying NOT going with the DENON.

thanks!

That's correct, both units can accept a 5.1 LPCM signal and apply PLIIX on top of them. They both can also accept a 7.1 LPCM. To be totally honest with you, I would choose the Sony. Sony's haven't always been known for their sound quality but the 3200ES/5200ES sound great. If you looking at Yamaha I would look no less than the RX-V1700. If you really want to shake things up go with the Denon AVR-2807, I have one and I love it.

Well I own the Denon and I've got to agree with the others, yes it costs more than the Onkyo but it's problem free, future-ready, and sounds awesome; everything you want in a great AVR. I know the Onkyo will NOT apply PLIIX on top of 5.1 LPCM, but there's really no way to check it's 7.1 LPCM capabilities because there really is no software out there. If you can't find the answer that you are looking for here, you may want to call Onkyo's tech support.

After using the 2807 it's hard to recommend anything else, the PIO would be my second choice or perhaps even a first choice if not for its LFE issue. J&R has a really good price on the 987, you have to call them for the lower price.

Greetings!
Thanks all who have contributed positively to this very informative thread! I have read the entire 45 pages of posts, and at times, my CPU was in danger of crashing
I have purchased a Samsung HL-S6187W 61" DLP, a Toshiba HD XA2 HD DVD player and a Denon AVR 3806.
My main goal is to get the best possible picure, and to take advantage of the advanced audio codecs available with HD DVD.
I will be having a ISF calibrator coming over to work his magic, so the TV will be calibrated to each input source (HD DVD, Dish Network HD DVR 611, cable) which will preclude me from hooking up each source to the Denon 3806 and the to the Samsung via single HDMI interface.
Being a big fan of as direct a signal path as possible, this vexes me a bit, but the trade off in picture quality obtained by the TV calibrated to each input source should outweigh the benefit of singal HDMI connection.
From my understanding, I have two options for hooking up the Toshiba XA2 to the Denon 3806:

1) Use the 8 channel analog outs of the XA2 to the Denon 3806
or
2) Find a high quality HDMI switch/spiltter

The problem with #1, I am not sure the 3806 will do advanced digital signal processing via the 8 channel analogs. After two conversations with Denon tech, I have two differnt answers. One said yes, DSP is available, and second says no, signal will just be pass through. Maybe I should call one more time and see who breaks the tie

Seriously, I want to use the DSP funstions of the 3806 AVR, not the ones built into the XA2, as I belive the Denon's to be far more flexible, if not superior. I am leaning towards believing that the 3806 DOES NOT process analog 8 in. That seems to be a function of the THX certified (part of that certification requirement) Denon models 4806 and 5805, hence the severe increase in cost for those two units.

The problem with option 2 is finding a high quality switch. I have done zero research for them. Price really is not an object, as I will pay a premium to assure best signal. Nothing fancy, just a simple switch. I have two HDMI ins on the Denon and two on the Samsung, so think that two 1x2 switches (one for the Toshiba HD DVD) and one for the Dish Network 611 would do for now. However, sould I aquire more HDMI sources..........

I have not yet hooked all this stuff up, as I am at the tail end of a remodel that will house my new home theater. Not a dedicated room, just a living room. All this equipment is still in the boxes, just waiting for the day...

I was hoping someone here might have some advise or experience with my proposed setup, as well as where to start looking if the switch seems to be the answer.


Thanks in advance for your time and trouble...
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966@hotmail.com

But that means that the Sony receivers (3200-5200) are Level 5 receivers and not 4?
Can someone confirm this?

I decided I am gonna wait for the 4306CI with HDMI 1.3 and True HD sometime this Summer.

Yo! First post on this thread confirms that!

So you want to pay for TrueHD when it's already decoded in the player?

Trust me they are. Go to the 3200/5200 user thread.

Put it this way, I want a bunch of features that put it in that cost range. Waiting until Summer makes sense to have everything I want in one purchase. The PS3 does decode but that does not mean other sources will as well.

Good summary...but still hard to make a choice (finding fact/fiction):
What I am told is that both Denon 2807 versus Cambridge Audio 640R are similar but CA is better for audio (listing to HiFI Music) and Denon slightly better for video feature. Anybody can help sort out fact/fiction:

1- Is CA really better (I did listen and did like it) with Cabasse speakers)?
2- HDMI is it conversion or passthrough in each?
3- How about multi-zone (I need second room, one music and one AV), both say they have, which is better (it seems both go down from 7.1 to 5.1 to provide)?
4- Other functions (less cable etc)?
Thanks,...

Future proof: Denon 2807 versus Cambridge Audio 640R

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good summary...but still hard to make a choice (finding fact/fiction):
What I am told is that both Denon 2807 versus Cambridge Audio 640R are similar but CA is better for audio (listing to HiFI Music) and Denon slightly better for video feature. Anybody can help sort out fact/fiction:

1- Is CA really better (I did listen and did like it) with Cabasse speakers)?
2- HDMI is it conversion or passthrough in each?
3- How about multi-zone (I need second room, one music and one AV), both say they have, which is better (it seems both go down from 7.1 to 5.1 to provide)?
4- Other functions (less cable etc)?
Thanks,...

sorry i meant level 6 receiver.
If you say that the 5200es can do PLIIX on top of LPCM then its a level 6 receiver, right?

Wrong. The 5200ES can apparently perform processing on 5.1LPCM but not 7.1. This makes it level 5.

Great news for those looking for a budget HDMI reciever. Yamaha just announced the RX-661 and RX-V861. Both of which are capable of 7.1 over HDMI at 24bit/192kHz.

*edit* heres the link to the RX-V661 http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/p...l?CNTID=547398

Yeah, both of these units look great. They both have hdmi 1.2a.

Thanks for the heads up. Anyone know what their new "SCENE" functions do? My guess it allows you to pre-program a set of configuration options that are easily recalled.

However - the HTR and RX-V series already has this capability. Its just not provided easily through the remote or unit itself (rather, you have to use custom IR codes to do this). So I wonder if there is any advance to their 'scenes' other than the fact that you don't have to 'know what you are doing' in order to use scene-like functionality. Anyone know?

Also I find it interesting that they apparently are not offering a higher power capability in these newer receivers (105w x 7 is the max).

I'll be interested in upgrading to a new Yamaha receiver once they implement HDMI 1.3 - the auto lip sync correction feature will be worth it (if it works how I'd expect it to)!

I looked over the manual for the RX-V661 (it's in the downloads section of the link if anyone is interested), and I didn't see any issues with it WRT not processing inputs. It won't do anything with analog multichannel in except adjust volume levels of each speaker.

One thing I did see was that this receiver has you choose whether it will decode the HDMI audio or if it will pass it to the display, not both at the same time. I know some have wanted to just use the TV speakers at night or when watching non-critical material like the news. It looks like they'll have to manually switch back and forth on the receiver which device will play the audio, although this may be selectable in the Scene settings.

All I want is to be able to take a 5.1LPCM signal and have it play as 7.1 (Back surronds) Why would you want to add processing to a 7.1 signal? PL2x just adds the back surrounds to the soundmix. If the soundtrack is already 7.1, then what would the benefit of PL2x be?

I believe in that case, the processing refers to things like bass management, time delay, equalization, etc.