5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 50

What source are you using to get 6.1 PCM? Crank/Descent come across as 7.1 even if there are only actually 6.1 discrete channels. I don't know if my PS3 even outputs 6.1 PCM? I know it does 5.1 and 7.1...

I think that might be his problem. I guess if you wanted to tell your player you only have a 5.1 speaker setup... which would downconvert 7.1 to 5.1, and then you would be able to apply it. It would put the rears in stereo instead of the forced mono.

@Controller2K

You say: "There are currently no - zero - known HDMI 1.3 sources that actually properly pass the bitstream via HDMI for these HD audio sources... yet."

Are you sure about this? I thought the Toshiba HD-XA2 / HD-XE1 (european model) are able to output the digital bitstream, it just wouldnt decode it. So you need a HDMI 1.3 capable AVR that supports the new audio formats (upcoming 4xOnkyo, 3xYamaha, 3xDENON, 1xPioneer etc.).

So no chance of decoding in the player and outputting (8ch) digital PCM via HDMI 1.3 but still digital bitstream output.

I have a chance to try that on friday with DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 and one of the upcoming DENON AVR, but I was told that it actually should work.

B.R.
Niran

Opinions will vary, but I consider THX certification worthwhile. Even though I don't use the THX post-processing modes, I'm still glad my pre-pro went through the certification process.

Manufacturers that have posted here in the past about sending their products for certification mentioned that going through an outside/independent set of hands usually meant some glitch or problem was found, resulting in a better final product than if they hadn't sent it for certification.

So while it's not a make-or-break feature for me, I think it's worth paying extra for. Whether that's of value to you is... well, up to you.

Best,
Sanjay

I will add one caveat from my experience. THX certification certainly didn't help some receiver and pre/pro manufacturers discover issues like low LFE for PCM signals. I had a THX Select 2 certified receiver that was plagued with this and other problems (HDMI transcoding issues and general HDMI compatibility problems). I now have a non-THX certified receiver that works flawlessly. It's probably better for people to guide their purchasing decisions on manufacturer track record and quality as documented by home users.

Which one did you have before, and what do you have now?

They aren't perfect, any more than manufacturers are (plenty of non-THX receivers and pre-pros don't handle the LFE boost properly). But I don't let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'good'. And independent inspection/verification is good, even if it doesn't result in a flawless product.

Sanjay

Right. But the point is, don't let THX certification make you think that a receiver or pre/pro will operate properly in all categories, or have the best "sound" at any price point. With the problems I experienced, and seen others experience, I wouldn't even call THX's role "good" in some cases. Their involvement can be worthless in identifying fundamental problems that may or may not be universal across an entire product line.

Independent inspection/verification by the consumer should be valued more than independent inspection/verification by a company that does not have complete experience with all aspects of the equipment.

I had a Pioneer Elite 84 and now have a Denon 4306. The problems that I mentioned have recently been addressed by Pioneer due to consumer involvement.

You're assuming in those cases that they caught absolutely zero problems. Manufacturers and industry pros that have posted here in the past have stated that has never (ever) been the case.

See posts by Buzz Goddard, Charles Wood, Roger Dressler, Dennis Erskine and Mark Seaton:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...threadid=85103

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...threadid=84796

See comments by Paul Scarpelli and Buzz Goddard:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...hreadid=122172

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...threadid=10771

With their comments in mind, do you know of a specific situation or product where THX certification was "worthless" (i.e., discovered zero problems)?
Independent inspection/verification by consumers doesn't suddenly vanish for THX certified products. It's there in both cases, so that's a wash. The advantage then is with THX certified gear, which gets scrutiny by consumers and by an independent group of engineers.

THX may not catch a glitch in your favourite feature, but that doesn't mean they didn't find any glitches at all. Someone can always find a bug that a designer, manufacturer or certification process missed. Lack of perfection doesn't make something worthless.

Sanjay

Good info, but the fact remains that THX certification alone is not a good justification to jump right into a product if problem-free functionality is of primary concern. Only one thing is certain when buying a THX certified product, and that is their specifications are met by the product. That's good in itself, but it shouldn't provide the buyer with complete confidence in the product.

Very few receivers have serious design flaws. It just so happens that the only recent set of mass produced receivers that suffered from serious and easily identifiable design flaws was a set of THX certified receivers. That is not too reassuring in my opinion.

In my example, it's not simply catching a glitch in my "favorite feature," but rather catching a glitch in a basic aspect of the product that many people are using. People don't want anything wrong with their audio product. THX certification may find an issue and correct it every now and then, but confidence shouldn't be bolstered too much via the certification. At this point in time where receiver manufacturers have had time to prove themselves, it is wiser to primarily base your initial conception on their previous products (or wait it out to evaluate their new products) and not think that THX may save the day.

Back when those posts were made, which was almost a decade ago, manufacturers still had much to learn. Now it should be very easy for manufacturers to get things like EQ and time alignment done properly. What we need to know is if the product performs its duties without obvious glitches that affect your average user.

That is my point. I'm not really arguing with much of your point. My usage of the word "worthless" was probably going a bit far. When I buy an A/V receiver, I want my video transcoding to be free of distortion and my HDMI video to be free of artifacts and dropouts. I'm sure the average consumer wants this as well. Why would consumers want to settle for anything less than perfection in functionality?

That's a straw man argument, since THX themselves don't claim that their certification process yields flawless products. So it's not a choice between relying on THX certification "alone" vs whatever else you rely on; it's the advantage of having THX certification and everything everything else you already rely on.
As Roger Dressler mentioned in one of the threads I linked to, Dolby also tests products to make sure they are complying to licensed specs (as does DTS). Whatever design flaws you're talking about were also missed by the DSP chip maker, the receiver designer & manufacturer, Dolby Labs, DTS, etc. Are they all worthless now for having missed the glitch or does all the blame fall on THX only?
I hope reality is able to meet your wants someday. Until then, we all have to live in a world where video transcoding is not flawless and HDMI outputs don't work perfectly (even on non-THX products). As I mentioned before, no matter how many fresh sets of eyes a product goes through, someone will find a glitch somewhere. Enthusiasts who weren't even in the consumer electronics industry discovered the chroma bug that the entire DVD player industry missed. Yeah, I know, DVD player manufacturers are worthless, since they didn't release perfect players.
Because perfection doesn't exist in the real world. Not understanding that is a recipe for constant disappointment. More important is what manufacturers do to address their less-than-perfect products (e.g., Pioneer issuing software to correct their LFE problem).

Sanjay

I don't have the time to respond and reiterate, but I will say that I do have equipment that meets my wants and they are indeed perfect in my eyes. You know why? Because they perform their basic duties correctly. Something like CUE in a DVD player is not nearly as bad as the transcoding problems that I am referring to. You are clearly not critical enough, because video transcoding is something that almost all HDMI receivers get right. CUE should be rather simple to address as well, but it doesn't affect functionality.

Furthermore, Pioneer corrected the issues I was talking about, so things now seem fine on that front. I do want to commend Pioneer for that, even though they let the issues go by due to apparently bad quality assurance.

My point was simple. I had a simple caveat to your point and you blew it up to something much bigger. There are sometimes seriously flawed THX certified products, so you can't really be confident that a product performs its basic functions properly just because it's THX certified. It's not the fault of THX, but I'm simply stating that people are wise not to think THX certification means an acceptable product. Pioneer owners, for good reason, didn't see an acceptable product. This is big money we put into our equipment, so we expect our equipment to perform basic functions properly.

I don't think anyone ever made a claim that it was.

THX verification of home audio performance was primarily driven by concerns about DVD-V sound....the vast majority of which is passed as bitstream, not PCM, in which case the LFE issue simply would not have come up. Indeed, the only people who suffered from the LFE issue until the recent advent of HD/Blu-Ray, were those relative few trying out the largely failed SACD/DVD-A formats, and possibly those who used analog 6-channel out for DVD-V audio.

As for video issues, HDMI is also rather a 'new thing'. I would hope THX is updating its certification punch list to accomodate PCM multichannel and HDMI transmission.


THX lays out specifically what its certified gear can be expected to do. It's not their fault if consumers are ignorant/misinformed.

Thanks for framing this all into perspective, krabapple. I admit that I had my part in blowing this up into something bigger. You make good points and I obviously agree 100% about THX.

It's just that I often see people thinking that THX certification means the product is the best of the best in a given price range, and that the basic needs of the consumers will be assured by virtue of THX certification. I was just trying to make it clear that this is not the case. THX does what it says it does and then some. Unfortunately, this doesn't mean their stamp addresses all basic issues outside of their purview, despite what some may think.

Huh? You're the one who believes he owns gear that is "indeed perfect" and "works flawlessly". And you think I'm "not critical enough"?

The reason I responded to your comments is so that readers understand that THX certification doesn't guarantee perfection. No one can. In which case it comes down to whether THX is a benefit or liability. The certification process doesn't damage a product or worsen its design (manufacturers always have to option to exceed THX requirements). So even for someone like me, who never uses THX's post-processing modes, there is still a benefit to having my pre-pro certified.

Sanjay

If you read my posts, I was talking about components functioning perfectly. I hardly call a severely darkened picture with tons of artifacts via the transcoding process functioning. One may say the same thing about issues like CUE (which my HD DVD player suffers from), so I guess the term "perfect" was operationalized in my own way. But then again, all standalone HD DVD players suffer from CUE, so the 1080i output is as good as it can get given the hardware options. With the receiver example, there are plenty of HDMI receivers that function perfectly.

My gear does work flawlessly in that my components are able to produce stable audio/video with no problems added by my receiver. I wish a few things in my system were fixed or added, such as CUE on my HD DVD player, BTB/WTW passing on my PS3, and DTS-HD MA decoding on my PS3. However, a fully functional system is most important to me. As for striving for "perfect" audio/video quality not related to functionality, I think my components are about as perfect as they can get given my meager budget.

It is clear that we agree on the THX issue (maybe except for the perceived benefit), and I pressed it too far. Just this morning I was reading a post by someone who was excited over a rumored Pioneer BD player that had a THX logo like the logo meant the player will be the second coming. That's the type of thing I was trying to address.

And there are people who think 'SACD' or 'DVD-A' must mean 'better sound than CD' . Really, there's no end to consumer gullibility.

The Onkyo 805 allows for processing on multichannel PCM folks.

They are better then CD's if you like multi-channel audio.

What level is the Yamaha 661? Are there any big downsides with the 661?

My 4 primary issues are:


1. That it can layer DPLIIx on top of 5.1 LPCM from a PS3 and the Toshiba HD-A2.

2. That it can accept 7.1 LPCM from stuff like the Playstation 3 game Resistance: Fall of Man

3. That it doesn't have any bass management issues

4. That it doesn't have any HDMI handshake issues with PS3, HD-A2 or Mitsubishi HD1000u.

There are no big downsides. Your answers:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No issues
4. No handshake issues with my HDA1, a Panny 1000u, or my PS3 (or my Monoprice switch, or my Comcast HD box...)

There's a basic but decent review up on soundandvisionmag.com under receivers...

I am a newbie to the home theater world and was very interested in the new Onkyo receivers until I read this forum. I know the 605 does not allow for any post processing on Multichannel PCM. I am very interested in buying the 805 when it becomes available shortly. According to the manual for the 805/875 on Onkyo's website, the 805 does allow for post processing on Multichannel PCM but I am confused as to the level. Other threads have said that the 805 will only allow limited post processing (not being able to enhance the 5.1 to 7.1). Can anyone clear this up for me? Would the Onkyo 805 be considered a Level 6 receiver?

Hey Lindahl,

The PS3 outputs the correct number of PCM channels for Blu-Ray discs and PS3 games. I have a 7.1 setup, and 5.1 movie tracks and games output as 5.1 PCM, just as 7.1 tracks and games output as 7.1 PCM. Furthermore, two-channel material from BDs output as two-channel PCM. What you are referring to only applies to non-PS3 games and some things run in the PS3 menu (e.g., movie trailers).

Also, you should add a word of caution for those with receivers that cannot accept 7.1 PCM. Some PS3 games (e.g., Ninja Gaiden Sigma demo and Ridge Racer 7) will only output multichannel PCM when the console is setup to send a 7.1 PCM signal. Otherwise, the games will output PCM at only 2 channels, or as DD if you have it enabled as a sound option.

Hi,

This thread is quite an informative one! Thanks for putting it together and to all who have contributed!

I do have one suggestion. On the 1st post, the numbering under "Levels of Receivers" do not quite match with the levels in the information, which makes things a bit confusing when it really does not need to be. E.g. Bullet number 5) has info on Level 4 receivers and bullet 6) is for Level 5 receivers. It will be very helpful if this can be corrected . If there is a level of receivers that spans 2 bullets currently, they may well be put as sub-bullets so we know that even though they may be slightly different, they are still being treated as same class for sake of this discussion.

In any case, I have been following the thread for a while as I wait for the Onkyo 605/705 as my first real receiver (I had a Panasonic HTIB which is well due for upgrade)...

I concur

Thanks Lindahl. I see now what you mean... But the new representation is surely crystal clear and intuitive! Thanks again!