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5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 51

post #1501 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwkid View Post

I am a newbie to the home theater world and was very interested in the new Onkyo receivers until I read this forum. I know the 605 and 705 do not allow for any post processing on Multichannel PCM. I am very interested in buying the 805 when it becomes available shortly. According to the manual for the 805/875 on Onkyo's website, the 805 does allow for post processing on Multichannel PCM but I am confused as to the level. Other threads have said that the 805 will only allow limited post processing (not being able to enhance the 5.1 to 7.1). Can anyone clear this up for me? Would the Onkyo 805 be considered a Level 6 receiver?

I would be interested to find this out as well. The 605 can accept 7.1 HDMI PCM, but cannot do any sound processing. The 805 (and 875) can process these too, so they should be Level 6. 605 is difficult to fit at a level coz its better than Level 4 (as Level 4 can only accept 5.1 HDMI PCM) but maybe not as good as Level 5 (as Level 5 are supposed to do processing on 5.1 HDMI PCM)...so maybe 4.5

705 I am totally in dark...where did you see that it cannot do any processing? Can you pls provide a link or sumthing...thanks
post #1502 of 3041
I'm sure it's somewhere under my nose, but where is the LIST of AVR's and pre/pros by level?
post #1503 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi76 View Post

I would be interested to find this out as well. The 605 can accept 7.1 HDMI PCM, but cannot do any sound processing. The 805 (and 875) can process these too, so they should be Level 6. 605 is difficult to fit at a level coz its better than Level 4 (as Level 4 can only accept 5.1 HDMI PCM) but maybe not as good as Level 5 (as Level 5 are supposed to do processing on 5.1 HDMI PCM)...so maybe 4.5

705 I am totally in dark...where did you see that it cannot do any processing? Can you pls provide a link or sumthing...thanks

RISHI76

First off, I am sorry to have mislead with the 705 addition in my original post. I am going to edit it and remove the 705. There is limited info on the 705 and I do not know what the processing options will be. Just that the 605 does not allow for any processing.

There has been quite a bit of discussion regarding the issue for the 805 on this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...eiver+HDMI+1+3

Starting with post #2742

Some people think it can enhance Multichannel PCM 5.1 to 7.1 using Dolby PLIIx and Neo 6 and others do not. If you read the post from thread #2742 to the end (most current post) there are several discussions. It pretty much centers around what exactly the column heading */2 indicates on page 74 of the 805 manual. The 805 manual can be downloaded here.

http://www.onkyousa.com/download/own...m?cat=Receiver

I am at the point that I think we might just have to wait until someone physically has the 805 receiver in their possession and can physically verify weather or not it will enhance the 5.1 to 7.1 using Dolby PLIIx and Neo 6 for Multichannel PCM. We can then put the receiver into a classification Level per this post. You can download the manual yourself and read the post on the above thread and come to your own conclusion.

Personally, after posting and reading others input, I think the 805 will do the 5.1 to 7.1 enhance on Multichannel PCM with Dolby PLIIx and Neo 6. The only thing I still question is that the 805 manual on page 76 only physically states Dolby PLIIx and Neo 6 will enhance 2-channel sources and makes no reference to enhancement of 5.1. Whereas, say under the Dolby EX heading, it is physically stated that it will enhance 5.1 to 7.1. I don't know why Onkyo would not have put the statement in the Dolby PLIIx and Neo 6 sections if they can actually do the enhancement from 5.1 to 7.1
post #1504 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

I've removed the caution for now, but what problem does this post refer to? Is it a non-existent problem?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10597830

They must be talking about non-PS3 games and the PS3's menu, because these are the only situations where what they mentioned is the case. The correct number of PCM channels is definitely output for PS3 games (except in the case of that addendum I mentioned earlier) and Blu-Ray movies.
post #1505 of 3041
uwkid:

I agree...I did see the manual, and came to same conclusion as Post # 2779 and 2781. So in my opinion too, 805 will be able to handle 5.1 to 7.1 expansion. Of course discrepancies (or lack of clarity) exist in the manual, and we can only to see once these receivers start shipping...

I, for one, am going to wait it out for the 705 . Hopefully this can do processing as well...and it has the pre-outs as well...
post #1506 of 3041
Lindahl........

You use the Marantz SR7001 as an example of a level 5 receiver... that supposedly allows signal processing on top of a 5.1 PCM input.

Over in the SR7001/8001 thread this exactly the thing that the owners are saying the Marantz Does NOT do?? They cannot apply DPXII 2 processing to turn a 5.1 LPCM signal into a 7.1 for those with all 8 speakers....

Or am I misreading or misunderstanding something about level 5??
post #1507 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

Lindahl........

You use the Marantz SR7001 as an example of a level 5 receiver... that supposedly allows signal processing on top of a 5.1 PCM input.

Over in the SR7001/8001 thread this exactly the thing that the owners are saying the Marantz Does NOT do?? They cannot apply DPXII 2 processing to turn a 5.1 LPCM signal into a 7.1 for those with all 8 speakers....

Or am I misreading or misunderstanding something about level 5??

Outdated information. I don't keep close watch on all the receiver threads, and just dip my toes in, now and then. I rely on people like you to keep my first post up to date. The manuals for SR7001/8001 say they support it, hence they were listed as a level 5, originally. I've now fixed that. Thanks.

I've also added a caution that warns about the accuracy of the example listings.
post #1508 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Fancied up the first post, thanks to DrPainMD.
post #1509 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Fancied up the first post, thanks to DrPainMD.

your welcome,

was glad to help out
post #1510 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Outdated information. I don't keep close watch on all the receiver threads, and just dip my toes in, now and then. I rely on people like you to keep my first post up to date. The manuals for SR7001/8001 say they support it [apply DPLIIX processing to turn a 5.1 LPCM signal into a 7.1 for those with all 8 speakers], hence they were listed as a level 5, originally. I've now fixed that. Thanks.

I've also added a caution that warns about the accuracy of the example listings.

Hi Lindahl,

As an owner of an earlier and lesser Marantz receiver (5500), I am unhappy to see that the 7001 and 8001 in "my brand" have been chastised and demoted to Level 4. In particular, this change does not fully represent the experience of 7001 / 8001 owners as reported on other AVS threads.

My best effort to summarize the current status of the Marantz 7001 / 8001 follows:
(1) Marantz 7001 / 8001 do support "DPLIIX processing to turn a 5.1 LPCM signal into a 7.1", and also two other processing modes with similar capability, Dolby EX (which provides "mono rear surround"), and THX Select 2 Cinema.
(2) Some of the early "builds" of the 7001 / 8001 lack DPLIIX (5.1->7.1) capability, but this bug was fixed by a firmware update released in January or February 2007.
(3) Marantz has not publicized the firmware update effectively, and some owners of the buggy builds have experienced delays in obtaining it.

See for example:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...x#post10251170
Shagman wrote on 04/09/2007:
Quote:


OK guys, after a lot of research, and a blind leap of faith regarding PLIIx over PCM and 7.1 PCM, I purchased a SR7001.

This unit was not in stock at AV Science and was on backorder for several weeks... hmm... sounds like a mid-product-life update.

I got it in, and have been nothing but happy with it (some HTPC DVI-HDMI issues, but who knows where the problem lays there). Here's what I have personally tested:

1) HDMI connectivity for Toshiba HD-A1, Sony PS3, and DVI-HDMI from my HTPC.
2) 7.1 channel activity on Sony PS3 (played Resistance and did a pan in the area of directional sound, a helicopter hovering, verified sound from rear surrounds)
3) Dolby PLIIx Movie matrixing over high-bandwidth True HD from the HD-A1 (Watched V for Vendetta and got good sound on rear surrounds during back alley fight)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...x#post10002609
mdrew wrote on 3/8/2007:
Quote:


Make sure you are in M-Channel mode. At this point the little PCM box should be lit. You will be in 5.1. There will be NO little speaker icons in the "box". Don't worry, this is some sort of bug.

Then you just hit the surround mode button untill PLIIx shows. The display will have a +PLIIx after the M-channel. You can then select THX and you'll get a M-channel+PLIIx+THX.

Or, after you are in Multi Channel mode, select either THX-EX or THX2 and your display will show M-channel+THX.

In either mode, you will get matrixed 7.1 channel LPCM. It rocks too!

DTS is not selectable. The "uncompatable" display will come up.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ix#post9681371
DeezMFNutz wrote on 2/4/2007:
Quote:


My 8001 is working great in every way except 7.1 LPCM. My HDMI cables are fine (monoprice). I can apply post processing to 5.1 PCM streams including PLIIx, DDEX, and THX.

However, with the 7.1 LPCM stream from my PS3 I can NOT apply PLIIx, DD EX, or THX2. The only post processing I can apply is "THX Cinema". Again, I am not sure how you are able to apply "THX2", I can't. Anyways, I doubt my 8001 is a lemon I think it is fuctioning as expected (e.g. no 7.1 LPCM support).
post #1511 of 3041
Maybe the best way to classify the Marantz 7001 / 8001 is to create a special category like
Level 4 (original firmware) / Level 5 (updated firmware, not all owners have yet)

With possible later change to plain Level 5, only if Marantz provides a simple upgrade procedure for owners of the bad builds.
post #1512 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic icons View Post

Maybe the best way to classify the Marantz 7001 / 8001 is to create a special category like
Level 4 (original firmware) / Level 5 (updated firmware, not all owners have yet)

With possible later change to plain Level 5, only if Marantz provides a simple upgrade procedure for owners of the bad builds.

Sounds reasonable..., but when I spoke to Marantz they would not even admit that their had been a firmware update???

But I have read some recent owners claiming they could turn a 5.1 into a 7.1... just raises questions when Marantz will not own up to what is going on... Richard from AVS even started a seperate thread where Marantz could step in and answer specific questions....... to date they have dropped in once or twice and said how lovely it was to have this venue to talk to their customers......, but amazingly failed to answer even ONE of the questions that had been asked.
post #1513 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Interesting. I moved them to level 5, but added the firmware caution.
post #1514 of 3041
Hi
I tried to search for Level 6 receivers, but to no avail. I was wondering if any of you guys could point me to a thread or maybe a list of the receivers?

Thanks guys!

Building out:
Pioneer Elite 50'' 1080p
3x Vienna Acoustics Bach Grand

More audio to come. =)
post #1515 of 3041
It says right in the first post in this thread - "Examples: All latest HDMI Denons. Yamaha RX-V661/HTR-6090 and higher. Pioneer Elite 81TXV and higher."
post #1516 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Added the Onkyo 805 to that list.
post #1517 of 3041
I notice this thread focuses solely on sound specs, but what about the fact that HDMI 1.3 brings additional video features, such as Deep Color?

For example, I purchased the Onkyo 674 but now I wish I had waited for the 605 which is HDMI 1.3 and can pass Deep Color.

I am planning on getting the upcoming Toshiba LX177, which does 120HZ, HDMI 1.3 and supports Deep Color.

Somehow, I do not feel so future proof with my Onkyo 674, since the Deep Color will be lost in transition from my PS3 to my Toshiba LCD. So it seems I need an HDMI 1.3 receiver, such as the Onkyo 605. Or am I missing something here?
post #1518 of 3041
What Deep Color content are you going to play?
post #1519 of 3041
I am guessing that BDs playable on the PS3 will come with Deep Color at some point. But let me add xvYCC to the list of things that 1.3 brings. I see the Toshiba LX177 supports both.

Are you saying that content needs to be xvYCC as well?
post #1520 of 3041
Deep Color is not supported in either HD DVD specification.
post #1521 of 3041
You mean HD DVD or BD. A BD has nothing to do with a DVD or HD DVD.
post #1522 of 3041
There will be NO Deep Color content for several years. No current or near-term future media formats support Deep Color. It's pure marketing fluff by the hardware manufacturers.
post #1523 of 3041
I see, what about xVYCC?
post #1524 of 3041
Just a note, not sure if it is covered here - the 1.8 firmware update for the PS3 allows you to set 7.1 as an allowable sound format (for receivers that support it) under HDMI and no longer will 5.1 BD movies with uncompressed tracks play as 7.1 with 2 channels of "dead air". This allows 5.1 PCM to be expanded now to 7.1 using IIx, as well as listening to 6.1 or 7.1 tracks and games without having to make any changes.

Previous firmwares required the 7.1 modes to be shut off for BD playback if one wanted to expand those tracks to 7.1 using IIx.
post #1525 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by controller2k View Post

Just a note, not sure if it is covered here - the 1.8 firmware update for the PS3 allows you to set 7.1 as an allowable sound format (for receivers that support it) under HDMI and no longer will 5.1 BD movies with uncompressed tracks play as 7.1 with 2 channels of "dead air". This allows 5.1 PCM to be expanded now to 7.1 using IIx, as well as listening to 6.1 or 7.1 tracks and games without having to make any changes.

Previous firmwares required the 7.1 modes to be shut off for BD playback if one wanted to expand those tracks to 7.1 using IIx.

Before the 1.8 update, I was able to apply PLIIx to a 5.1 pcm signal with my Denon 987. On my receiver it said 'Multi In + PLIIx' when I selected a 5.1 pcm signal.
post #1526 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Before the 1.8 update, I was able to apply PLIIx to a 5.1 pcm signal with my Denon 987. On my receiver it said 'Multi In + PLIIx' when I selected a 5.1 pcm signal.

Yes, but what he is saying is that now the sound will be output in the same number of channels as the source, so now selecting 7.1 means it will output up to 7.1 rather than outputting everything as 7.1 with muted channels.
post #1527 of 3041
After 1.8, I'm still able to do PLIIx on 5.1 PCM on Pirates DMC (just last night), Apocalypto (this last Wednesday) from my Denon 4306. Still 7.1 from XMB and Resistance (this morning). This is the same behavior as from before 1.8 and I've always done the autodetection and never had to disable 7.1 (which is what I get from XMB, Resistance, Crank, etc).
post #1528 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDrexl View Post

Yes, but what he is saying is that now the sound will be output in the same number of channels as the source, so now selecting 7.1 means it will output up to 7.1 rather than outputting everything as 7.1 with muted channels.

I have noticed no change in how my sound is decoded and/or output from before 1.8 and after 1.8. If needed I can apply PLIIx to a pcm signal, except for the XMB which stays as 7.1 out even though I don't believe anything is coming out of some of my speakers.
post #1529 of 3041
Maybe it was just me?

Prior to 1.8, I definitely found 7.1 channels of PCM were playing no matter how many channels were in the source. It is possible I had a setting wrong somewhere.

In any case, it all now works as expected, with every soundtrack and game playing their amount of channels as authored, PCM or DD or DTS, and allowing full 7.1 or 5.1 with IIx decoding layered onto it.

And that makes me happy.
post #1530 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by controller2k View Post


And that makes me happy.

Isn't that all that REALLY matters?
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