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5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 54

post #1591 of 3041
Quote:


I don't think we'll see analog inputs go anywhere for a long time. For the large majority of receivers, they're still needed for DVD-A and SACD, and they're too cheap to add to be left out and risk losing those customers (same as composite inputs).

I've referred to a bank of analog-ins as perhaps the most future-proof feature of all. Of course, all processing duties are usually up to the source (which tend to provide the most basic functionality), but there are rarely handshake issues.
post #1592 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by priesteria View Post

DVD-A and SACD can both be taken cared of by HDMI, 5.1/7.1 is backward looking and not forward looking. It should not be included in "future proofing" criteria. Although the media may not be going anywhere, HDMI will be there for them and so they do not matter if they or not as long as HDMI is there that can process SACD or A.

There are very few DVD-A and SACD players that will output the signal over HDMI. In fact, I think there's only one SACD player that will do this. To add such features to new players would require an investment in developing the technology for a large majority of the CE companies. To believe they will do this for a dying format is short sighted.

I have to agree with the previous poster, that the most future proof connector out there right now are a set of analog inputs. They're here to stay, sorry. I'm done arguing on this. Swallow your ego if you happen to buy a receiver without analog inputs, because it won't be listed in the first post.
post #1593 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

There are very few DVD-A and SACD players that will output the signal over HDMI. In fact, I think there's only one SACD player that will do this. To add such features to new players would require an investment in developing the technology for a large majority of the CE companies. To believe they will do this for a dying format is short sighted.

I have to agree with the previous poster, that the most future proof connector out there right now are a set of analog inputs. They're here to stay, sorry. I'm done arguing on this. Swallow your ego if you happen to buy a receiver without analog inputs, because it won't be listed in the first post.

Ya know... if they actually read the intent of your (excellent) post#1, they might just understand the concept.

It's not all about anticipating what new feature/standard/technology could/may/might hit the streets (let alone stand the test of time) in the future. Sorry, that is moving target, that can never be met.

It *is* all about purchasing something TODAY, that will carry you into the future, and NOT be quickly obsoleted, while taking advantage of the existing technology - to give you the best possible performance and connectivity.

OK... so, everything becomes obsolete. And there is no such thing as "future proof". But, WTF??? ARGHHHHHH!!!!!
post #1594 of 3041
Quote:
There are very few DVD-A and SACD players that will output the signal over HDMI. In fact, I think there's only one SACD player that will do this. To add such features to new players would require an investment in developing the technology for a large majority of the CE companies. To believe they will do this for a dying format is short sighted.

I'm a little surprised they even bothered with an HDMI revision specifically to allow DSD transmission. Unless it seemed to have some life at the time. Do you think Oppo would bother with a 1.2a/DSD player, or is the licensing noose still pretty tight? I can't believe Sony worries so much about people copying SACD, it's such a small niche.
At the moment, I'm doing a bit of comparing. I've got my Denon 2900 universal hooked via 5.1 analog to my Yamaha 661 while my Oppo 970 delivers DVD-A/SACD LPCM via HDMI. So I'm looking toward the future while living in the past.
post #1595 of 3041
Quote:
It *is* all about purchasing something TODAY, that will carry you into the future, and NOT be quickly obsoleted, while taking advantage of the existing technology - to give you the best possible performance and connectivity.

Of course. Why worry about possible "Deep Color" or discrete 7.1 years from now when there will probably be a host of other reasons to upgrade a receiver (like much better room correction/DSP).
post #1596 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

At the moment, I'm doing a bit of comparing. I've got my Denon 2900 universal hooked via 5.1 analog to my Yamaha 661 while my Oppo 970 delivers DVD-A/SACD LPCM via HDMI.

I'd like to hear about that! Another thread, if you please? thanks
post #1597 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

I'd like to hear about that! Another thread, if you please? thanks

And perhaps with a link here so we all get notification?
post #1598 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

At the moment, I'm doing a bit of comparing. I've got my Denon 2900 universal hooked via 5.1 analog to my Yamaha 661 while my Oppo 970 delivers DVD-A/SACD LPCM via HDMI. So I'm looking toward the future while living in the past.

I like the idea of another thread for that one. Count me in, send the link. I did the same tests with my 981 via HDMI - and it's own 5.1 analog outputs. Not to spoil the suspense but, the difference was................
post #1599 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

I like the idea of another thread for that one. Count me in, send the link. I did the same tests with my 981 via HDMI - and it's own 5.1 analog outputs. Not to spoil the suspense but, the difference was................

What was the difference?? If there is another thread started, please PM me with the link or post it here.
post #1600 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruuce View Post

What was the difference?? If there is another thread started, please PM me with the link or post it here.

OK, we prolly won't get the thread off the ground, so...

I could not hear a difference, other than at very loud volume, during periods of silence, the background noise was more noticable with Analog. And, yes.. I did use very good analog cables

I mean, I'm not 30 (or 40 for that matter) anymore, and I have spent a lot of years with a LesPaul, in front of Marhsall stacks, so I'm sure my ears are not perfect anymore, but...



There really isn't any difference, IMHO
post #1601 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

I'd like to hear about that! Another thread, if you please? thanks

Heh, I don't know about a whole thread, guys, this is just some informal comparing I've been doing for myself listening to both at various levels to see if I should leave the Denon in or just let the Oppo do the work. I'll try and get more careful about level-matching as I continue so I can give a better idea.
At the moment, though, they seem very close. On certain uncrowded recordings that really seem to expose the chain with tiny HF transients (like the "Chimes" track on the 24/96 "Dr. Chesky" DVD-A), I feel the Denon might be a little better, but it's tough.

Quote:


I mean, I'm not 30 (or 40 for that matter) anymore, and I have spent a lot of years with a LesPaul, in front of Marhsall stacks, so I'm sure my ears are not perfect anymore, but...

Ditto. No LP/stack anymore here, but I did just treat myself to this Ibanez for my 40th which I'm really enjoying.
post #1602 of 3041
I like Ibanez
post #1603 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

Ditto. No LP/stack anymore here, but I did just treat myself to this Ibanez for my 40th which I'm really enjoying.

I guess I'll have to go pull one of the guitars out of the closet now

Nice Axe ya got there.
post #1604 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

I guess I'll have to go pull one of the guitars out of the closet now

Nice Axe ya got there.

Waaay OT now, but I'm really impressed with the quality of this thing for $400, pretty amazing.
post #1605 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

Waaay OT now, but I'm really impressed with the quality of this thing for $400, pretty amazing.

Indeed, unless it's the 5.1/7.1 Ibanez with PCM, HDMI, and DSP.
post #1606 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Indeed, unless it's the 5.1/7.1 Ibanez with PCM, HDMI, and DSP.

Hah, got that covered with my 661. Come to think of it, I've been doin' alright at the $400 price point lately.
post #1607 of 3041
Could someone clarify the "level" of the Emotiva Ultra Theater Series combo with the HDMI switcher based on the levels described in the original post?

As someone posted in another thread I'm comparing that to the Onkyo TX-SR805 and the Denon AVR 2807. I do want bells and whistles, but also very important to me is sound quality, and if I can get a DVD (HD or BD) player that does a good job of decoding the new audio formats then the receiver may not necessarily need those functions for me. Regardless of which receiver I end up with the surround will only be 5.1.

Thanks for the help.
post #1608 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Emotiva's processors are level 2s. The processor to beat that's coming out soon is the Integra 9.8. High-end DACs, Silicon Optix Reon scaling, XLR pre-outs and level 6, all for $1600. Even though Emotiva has 1.3 processor in the works, I don't think it'll touch the Integra. I can't imagine a small outfit like theirs adding a full blown high-end scalar into the system.
post #1609 of 3041
I love this thread. I continually read that Blu-ray and HD DVD, unlike DVD-A are not limited to 96kHz/24-Bit 5.1 and are capable of 192kHz/24-Bit 5.1 lossless audio. I can't find any proof of that anywhere including the official DTS site for DTS-HD MA, the Dolby Digital site and any of the Blu-ray player sites. The White Papers for the various formats I could find offer no proof and there isn't any software I can find that goes above 96kHz/24-Bit for 5.1.

Can somebody point me to a definitive statement on the issue? At 55, I don't think I could hear the difference in any event, but for academic purposes, I would like to read about it if true.

Chris
post #1610 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post

I love this thread. I continually read that Blu-ray and HD DVD, unlike DVD-A are not limited to 96kHz/24-Bit 5.1 and are capable of 192kHz/24-Bit 5.1 lossless audio. I can't find any proof of that anywhere including the official DTS site for DTS-HD MA, the Dolby Digital site and any of the Blu-ray player sites. The White Papers for the various formats I could find offer no proof and there isn't any software I can find that goes above 96kHz/24-Bit for 5.1.

Can somebody point me to a definitive statement on the issue? At 55, I don't think I could hear the difference in any event, but for academic purposes, I would like to read about it if true.

Third paragraph, but only for six channels. For eight channels, it's limited to 24-bit/96 kHz.
post #1611 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Third paragraph, but only for six channels. For eight channels, it's limited to 24-bit/96 kHz.

Thanks, Wikipedia is where I first read it, but that isn't anything I could consider official.

Chris
post #1612 of 3041
Could someone who has a "futureproof" receiver and a Blu-ray/HD-DVD player tell me what the digital readout displays when playing one of the new audio formats? Does it display "DTS" for DTS-HD or "Dolby Digital" for DD+?

Thanks
post #1613 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by piratehunter View Post

Could someone who has a "futureproof" receiver and a Blu-ray/HD-DVD player tell me what the digital readout displays when playing one of the new audio formats? Does it display "DTS" for DTS-HD or "Dolby Digital" for DD+?

Thanks

This will entirely depend on which unit is doing the encoding. If the player decodes the high rez audio "formats" then you will see PCM on the receiver display. If the receiver is decoding, then you will see the corresponding label of the high resolution audio signal.
post #1614 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by piratehunter View Post

Could someone who has a "futureproof" receiver and a Blu-ray/HD-DVD player tell me what the digital readout displays when playing one of the new audio formats? Does it display "DTS" for DTS-HD or "Dolby Digital" for DD+?

Thanks

What they will see is LPCM or PCM..(via HDMI) or Multi Channel if sending the signal via multichannel analog.

None of the current HD players output any of the new formats via Bitstream... therefore none of the current receivers can decode them because no one can send them one.

To date the HD players have to decode the signals themselves and then send them to a receiver via LPCM.

Sometime this year... "hopefully" some of the HD players are supposed to receive upgrades so they can do this... but none can output them via Bitstream yet.

I know this sounds strange... but trust me... nobody can do it yet. The HD-DVD players will decode Dolby TrueHD but they can only output it via PCM over HDMI or multi-channel analog. None of the BluRay players can output any of the HD formats via Bitstream either.... we all must wait another 6 months or so.
post #1615 of 3041
Hope someone can answer this question - as I gave up reading through all the posts in this thread!

I have a Yamaha rx-v1400. It has no HDMI, but it does have 7.1 analog inputs. I think the new Panasonic bluray has analog 7.1 output, so I should be able to connect them - however - do I have to worry about bassmanagement or is this a dvd-audio/sacd specific issue - and the other question is that my receiver has the microphone and does the auto equalization. Would it work to hook up analog, and rerun the tests to get it configured properly, or is it not possible to configure this in the receiver when the input is analog? My manual did not go into detail on this...

Thanks!

-Tom
post #1616 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomes View Post

Hope someone can answer this question - as I gave up reading through all the posts in this thread!

I have a Yamaha rx-v1400. It has no HDMI, but it does have 7.1 analog inputs. I think the new Panasonic bluray has analog 7.1 output, so I should be able to connect them - however - do I have to worry about bassmanagement or is this a dvd-audio/sacd specific issue - and the other question is that my receiver has the microphone and does the auto equalization. Would it work to hook up analog, and rerun the tests to get it configured properly, or is it not possible to configure this in the receiver when the input is analog? My manual did not go into detail on this...

Thanks!

-Tom

Tom if you have already run the auto setup it will not change for the analog inputs... the receiver sends out the test tones and it has no idea where the eventual signal will arrive from, so it does not matter. If you are not happy with your auto calibration then you can go into the setup on your receiver and check the distances listed versus reality or you can use a SPL meter and run the tones manually.
post #1617 of 3041
So you think that the speaker setup could still work? I found out that at least dsp modes don't work with analog inputs on my receiver, so I assumed that the speaker set up would also be circumvented by the analog input.

Thanks!

-Tom
post #1618 of 3041
I have an older Yamaha in my townhouse and it works the same way... no DSP with multi-channel analog, however I believe the original setup will still be used.
post #1619 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post

I love this thread. I continually read that Blu-ray and HD DVD, unlike DVD-A are not limited to 96kHz/24-Bit 5.1 and are capable of 192kHz/24-Bit 5.1 lossless audio. I can't find any proof of that anywhere including the official DTS site for DTS-HD MA, the Dolby Digital site and any of the Blu-ray player sites. The White Papers for the various formats I could find offer no proof and there isn't any software I can find that goes above 96kHz/24-Bit for 5.1.

Can somebody point me to a definitive statement on the issue? At 55, I don't think I could hear the difference in any event, but for academic purposes, I would like to read about it if true.

Chris


I have friends who work in feature film sound mixing. They say that 24-bit / 48kHz has been the standard for mixing and mastering for some years now. None are aware of any films being mixed at higher rates.
Most HD-DVDs and Blu-rays are currently down-converted to 16-bit / 48kHz, although that depends on the studio. Hopefully, more studios will keep it 24-bit like, say, Disney are (pirates of the Carribean on Blu-ray being an example).
My friends in the industry also claim that 24-bit offers obvious improvements over 16-bit, but that anything above 48kHz is usually a waste, as it's difficult to hear any improvement with most material, especially in a large auditorium.

Also, Chris, at 55 I'm sure you can still hear the differences, as long as you've treated your ears well. My Dad is 65 and can often out-hear me, and I've been very careful with my ears. The question is whether or not your sound system can reveal the differences - particularly your room and speakers!
post #1620 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

Most HD-DVDs and Blu-rays are currently down-converted to 16-bit / 48kHz, although that depends on the studio.


Are most standard DVD's also downconverted to 16-bit / 48kHz ? Are there any standard DVD's released that keep the 24-bit soundtrack?
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