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5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 56

post #1651 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

We are grateful that you took time out of your "independent life" to honor us with your words of wisdom.

He is not a slave to new technology. It can be very time consuming. For instance:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...26-662,00.html

Excuse me now while I pay a pretty price to get frustrated with the slow-poke hostile I-Phone. For another instance:
http://blogs.pcworld.com/techlog/archives/004830.html

So in other words do we control technology or are we slaves to it?
post #1652 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by fri2219 View Post

There isn't a single damn thing in Audio in the last 30 years that's improved on what Marantz, Matsushita, or Macintosh sold in 1977*. Every last "new feature" has been nothing more than the mob trying to get you to repurchase what you already own, or drool in anticipation of filling your garage with **** that you don't need.

There is this thing called 'surround sound'. You may want to investigate it. Apparently, it can place sounds around you, relative to where the artist/director wants the sound to be heard. You become surrounded in sound, hence the name.

It really is a great invention, which has been drastically improved since invention in 1975. I highly recommend you look into it.

Of course, you may believe 8 channels is not an improvement over 4 channels...
post #1653 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

He is not a slave to new technology. It can be very time consuming. For instance:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...26-662,00.html

Excuse me now while I pay a pretty price to get frustrated with the slow-poke hostile I-Phone. For another instance:
http://blogs.pcworld.com/techlog/archives/004830.html

So in other words do we control technology or are we slaves to it?

Wait a minute. There's a range of positions between those two extremes. If one is never an early adopter, one can avoid things like the iPhone situation. And re the XBox, I *just* heard on CNN that MS is paying to fix defective units, reimbursing those who've already paid to fix their defective unit and making changes going forward to new units so that the problem is already fixed. They're also extending the warranty to three years. I am not a fan of MS, but this is a standup thing to do. iPhone owners having problems have only themselves to blame for buying it right out of the gate. Defects and recalls happen, and XBox owners are being made whole.

And what, anyway, do the two examples you cite have anything to do with controlling or being controlled by technology?
post #1654 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Wait a minute. There's a range of positions between those two extremes. If one is never an early adopter, one can avoid things like the iPhone situation. And re the XBox, I *just* heard on CNN that MS is paying to fix defective units, reimbursing those who've already paid to fix their defective unit and making changes going forward to new units so that the problem is already fixed. They're also extending the warranty to three years. I am not a fan of MS, but this is a standup thing to do. iPhone owners having problems have only themselves to blame for buying it right out of the gate. Defects and recalls happen, and XBox owners are being made whole.

And what, anyway, do the two examples you cite have anything to do with controlling or being controlled by technology?

I agree but once the majority of people "smartin-up" the manufactures change tactics. For example everyone used to wait for the first service pack of a new operations system (cause they hated being beta testers). Now almost everyone waits. So what does MicroSoft do? Delay the first service pack for years!

At the AT&T phone centers, the I-Phones are routed through a standard wireless local area network. But after you pay, then you get to use the very slow AT&T data network. Web pages can take minutes to load. Now if you wait a year or two we will catch up to many other countries. But in the meantime one can brag (what an name-brand idiot they are).
post #1655 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

I agree but once the majority of people "smartin-up" the manufactures change tactics. For example everyone used to wait for the first service pack of a new operations system (cause they hated being beta testers). Now almost everyone waits. So what does MicroSoft do? Delay the first service pack for years!

I'd be interested in knowing what factors influenced that decision, but I could care less anyway. Software incompatibilities, lack of driver support forcing buying new cards and peripherals. And neither DX10 nor DX10 hardware is ready for prime time. XP does everything I need. Their loss.

Quote:


At the AT&T phone centers, the I-Phones are routed through a standard wireless local area network. But after you pay, then you get to use the very slow AT&T data network. Web pages can take minutes to load. Now if you wait a year or two we will catch up to many other countries.

Again, research, research and research before buying anything.

Quote:


But in the meantime one can brag (what an name-brand idiot they are).

BINGO!
post #1656 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude2006 View Post

Do we know for sure that the v50 doesn't do the 7.1 thing?

zapp! did have problems with h50 before it was upgraded to h52, but it's not clear if he also had the 7.1 problem at that time as he did not have any 7.1 software to test it with yet. Someone else also mentioned that thier intermittent HDMI handshake issues went away when they went to h52.

Here is the thread where zapp! complained of the Problems with h50 firmware

MF
post #1657 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFirst View Post

zapp! did have problems with h50 before it was upgraded to h52, but it's not clear if he also had the 7.1 problem at that time as he did not have any 7.1 software to test it with yet. Someone else also mentioned that thier intermittent HDMI handshake issues went away when they went to h52.

Here is the thread where zapp! complained of the Problems with h50 firmware

MF


Oh I see, I just ordered a 8001 this week but haven't had a chance to look at the firmware version, I really hope it's 52
post #1658 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude2006 View Post

Oh I see, I just ordered a 8001 this week but haven't had a chance to look at the firmware version, I really hope it's 52

I'm sending mine away on Mon. to Illinois for the FW upgrade, as the service centers in Cailif. won't do the FW upgrade. I was looking at the Integra 9.8 as a Pre/Pro too, but I think I will wait to see if it has any bugs in it before I do. Until then I will use the upgraded 7001 as a Pre/Pro and sell it when/if I make the move to the 9.8 or something else.

MF
post #1659 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicFirst View Post

I'm sending mine away on Mon. to Illinois for the FW upgrade, as the service centers in Cailif. won't do the FW upgrade. I was looking at the Integra 9.8 as a Pre/Pro too, but I think I will wait to see if it has any bugs in it before I do. Until then I will use the upgraded 7001 as a Pre/Pro and sell it when/if I make the move to the 9.8 or something else.

MF

Did the Illinois center tell you how long it would take? There's only one center in Florida but she wouldn't give me an estimate of how long it would take
post #1660 of 3041
This may have been answered, and I apologize for posting if so but I can't spend too much time browsing this forum at work. Will try again later at home, but for now...

You indicated a level 4 can't perform surround processing on PCM digital sources and Level 6 can. It so happens I am going to buy either an Onkyo 605 (Level 4) or 805 (Level 6). Aside from the channel wattage and THX certification differences, what do you mean by these statements? Does it have to do with how it processes standard DVD sound and/or lesser than Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA?
post #1661 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by fri2219 View Post

If there was ever a term that someone deserves a long stay in a pool of fire over...


It's "future proof". If you're that worried about it and can't enjoy what you have right now, maybe you should put down the remote, take up something less passive than watching the idiot box, and add a few years to your independent life.

There isn't a single damn thing in Audio in the last 30 years that's improved on what Marantz, Matsushita, or Macintosh sold in 1977*. Every last "new feature" has been nothing more than the mob trying to get you to repurchase what you already own, or drool in anticipation of filling your garage with **** that you don't need.

*Yeah, I know there's other brands, but they don't alliterate. Have a nice day.

Up the dose, man.

Let's see. I'll give you a break in 2 channel audio, even though the advent of room EQ and DSP apply here, I'm a "pure" stereo person, when it comes to music. So, that one gets a pass.

Did you miss the whole multi-channel audio birth? Hence, the reason for this thread. I remember going to see movies in 1977, and I can tell you my HT is better than what they had in theaters back then. The experience now is leaps & bounds better... and cheaper, and smaller, and more reliable.

I've long since retired my Marantz 8-track and cassette player, too. There's a technology that died due to advances in sound. Yes, I still listen to records on my 1970's era B&O turntable. I won't get into the argument about which sounds better... records or CD's. But, CD technology brought quality audio to the masses.

Not sure that I angst over "future proof"... as there is really no such thing, however, I'd like to maximize my investment in gear. So, for folks who want to buy something now, that will serve them well in the future, that is an important concept.

And as for your 3M brands... they are nice - in fact quite nice. However, please don't think they are the pinnacle of audio. As they are not. There are some other "alliterate" brands, make the 3M's look like Japanese transistor radio's of the 60's. They are beyond the reach of my willingness to spend, but for those that can afford and appreciate - they are out there.
post #1662 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpeacock22 View Post

This may have been answered, and I apologize for posting if so but I can't spend too much time browsing this forum at work. Will try again later at home, but for now...

You indicated a level 4 can't perform surround processing on PCM digital sources and Level 6 can. It so happens I am going to buy either an Onkyo 605 (Level 4) or 805 (Level 6). Aside from the channel wattage and THX certification differences, what do you mean by these statements? Does it have to do with how it processes standard DVD sound and/or lesser than Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA?

I'm going to try an answer your question the way I understand it. If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me, and if i'm right, hopefully someone will confirm that for me.

I believe the answer to your question is yes, it has more to do with 2.0/5.1 than TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. I believe with a level 4, if you're sending the receiver 2.0 or 5.1 PCM audio, you can't further process it to make it 7.1. It will just matrix the 5.1 out to the appropriate speakers. With a level 6+, you can process the 5.1 PCM and rematrix it to a 7.1 output.

I believe this only applies to PCM audio. In the case of the 605, if you're sending the reciever a 5.1 Dolby Digital bitstream, it can use it's internal decoder and create a 7.1 mix... it just can't with a pre-decoded 5.1 PCM mix.

If you look at the manuals for the two products (http://www.onkyousa.com/download/own...m?cat=Receiver)
Compare page 62 for the 605, and page 72 for the 805... you'll see the 805 can further process multi channel PCM data. (ie: PLIIx, EX)

Corrections to my post are highly encouraged as I'm learning all this myself.
post #1663 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

Up the dose, man.

That might what fri2219 did and was just having fun with us. He/She tossed a bomb and then left the room. Or is lurking watching us all run about.
post #1664 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiffee View Post

I believe the answer to your question is yes, it has more to do with 2.0/5.1 than TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. I believe with a level 4, if you're sending the receiver 2.0 or 5.1 PCM audio, you can't further process it to make it 7.1. It will just matrix the 5.1 out to the appropriate speakers. With a level 6+, you can process the 5.1 PCM and rematrix it to a 7.1 output.

While capable of more, the two advanced formats you mentioned are 5.1 at this time and are included in the concern about processing a 5.1 source for 7.1 speakers. I believe the rest of your answer is spot on.
post #1665 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

That might what fri2219 did and was just having fun with us. He/She tossed a bomb and then left the room. Or is lurking watching us all run about.

It was kind fun, though. Made me remember my old 8-track system.... I outta dig that out of the basement & hook it up again. That would blow people's minds when they saw it.

Wonder what Billion Dollar Babies would sound like in 7-channel stereo??? Imagine that... 7 channels of +20dB hiss
post #1666 of 3041
Which is the cheapest level 6 ampli actually available on the market ?
Thanks
post #1667 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiffee View Post

I'm going to try an answer your question the way I understand it. If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me, and if i'm right, hopefully someone will confirm that for me.

I believe the answer to your question is yes, it has more to do with 2.0/5.1 than TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. I believe with a level 4, if you're sending the receiver 2.0 or 5.1 PCM audio, you can't further process it to make it 7.1. It will just matrix the 5.1 out to the appropriate speakers. With a level 6+, you can process the 5.1 PCM and rematrix it to a 7.1 output.

I believe this only applies to PCM audio. In the case of the 605, if you're sending the reciever a 5.1 Dolby Digital bitstream, it can use it's internal decoder and create a 7.1 mix... it just can't with a pre-decoded 5.1 PCM mix.

If you look at the manuals for the two products (http://www.onkyousa.com/download/own...m?cat=Receiver)
Compare page 62 for the 605, and page 72 for the 805... you'll see the 805 can further process multi channel PCM data. (ie: PLIIx, EX)

Corrections to my post are highly encouraged as I'm learning all this myself.

Yes that does make sense to me. So in other words, if a DVD is not pre-coded for 5.1, then the level 6 will "remix" it into 7.1. Now it seems to me (and I could be way wrong) that most standard DVDs are already pre-coded, so a majority of what I would have wouldn't be "scaled up" to 7.1 anyway. Does this mean that 5.1 DVDs will simply "ignore" the extra speakers?

At any rate, I can probably do with the level 4 if DVDs are going to be in 5.1 anyway and spend the money on better speakers.
post #1668 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by bvalter1964 View Post

Which is the cheapest level 6 ampli actually available on the market ?
Thanks

You actually be looking for a rece and not an ampli
post #1669 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by bvalter1964 View Post

Which is the cheapest level 6 ampli actually available on the market ?
Thanks

You're gonna have to look around for yourself to find that....

Plan on spending around $800-900. From there, decide what features you need/want - and start narrowing the search.
post #1670 of 3041
Ok maybe this has been asked but i have the Yamaha 1700 receiver and the Toshiba A2 HD-DVD player.

Now when playing a HD-DVD with True-HD soundtracks hooked up via HDMI to the receiver then HDMI to the TV am i Passing the True-HD track?
post #1671 of 3041
SUPER THREAD. Does anyone know what pre/pros meet level 6 standards? I am considering seperates.
post #1672 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwest View Post

SUPER THREAD. Does anyone know what pre/pros meet level 6 standards? I am considering seperates.

That is a question that I have as well as I've only seen this thread deal with AVRs. How about it, thread regulars, pre/pros?
post #1673 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude2006 View Post

Did the Illinois center tell you how long it would take? There's only one center in Florida but she wouldn't give me an estimate of how long it would take

No, I did not ask. Should have though. I will likely call again tomorrow and find out.

MF
post #1674 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernalfer View Post

Ok maybe this has been asked but i have the Yamaha 1700 receiver and the Toshiba A2 HD-DVD player.

Now when playing a HD-DVD with True-HD soundtracks hooked up via HDMI to the receiver then HDMI to the TV am i Passing the True-HD track?

Someone correct me if i'm wrong...
Yes, but only 5.1 channels. While the Yamaha does accept 7.1 PCM, the A2 only outputs 5.1. Not sure what level the 1700 is, but if it's a level 6, the receiver can upmix to 7.1- otherwise, enjoy your lossless 5.1.
post #1675 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernalfer View Post

Ok maybe this has been asked but i have the Yamaha 1700 receiver and the Toshiba A2 HD-DVD player.

Now when playing a HD-DVD with True-HD soundtracks hooked up via HDMI to the receiver then HDMI to the TV am i Passing the True-HD track?

Your player can pass the "track" decoded internally and as 5.1 PCM, but not the TrueHD bitstream itself (for decoding by your receiver).
post #1676 of 3041
@mtiffee

So basically with a level 4, 5.1 bitstream is going to stay 5.1, but with a level 6, it will remix it to 7.1? If PCM, the level 6 can do a bit more than the level 4 (having looked at those pages). Yes?
post #1677 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpeacock22 View Post

@mtiffee

So basically with a level 4, 5.1 bitstream is going to stay 5.1, but with a level 6, it will remix it to 7.1? If PCM, the level 6 can do a bit more than the level 4 (having looked at those pages). Yes?

No, I believe it only affects digital PCM sources (post HDMI) like a TrueHD bitstream decoded to multichannel PCM. If you're sending a level 4 a Dolby Digital bitstream, it can remix up to 7.1. But if you're sending it 5.1 multichannel PCM from your HD-DVD player, it has very limited processing options, if any at all.

A level 6 has enough processing power to remix any source 5.1 to 7.1.
post #1678 of 3041
I think I need to look up some definitions. lol. I get PCM vs. bitstream, but is it the disc or a setting on the player that I choose which way it comes to the receiver? And let's say it's connected via HDMI 1.3. I really don't think I'd take issue with my standard DVDs that have 5.1 to stay 5.1. I'm more looking to make sure I can play what's coming, namely the uncompressed HD data from DTS and Dolby. So it sounds like a level 4 will do me.
post #1679 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernalfer View Post

Ok maybe this has been asked but i have the Yamaha 1700 receiver and the Toshiba A2 HD-DVD player.

Now when playing a HD-DVD with True-HD soundtracks hooked up via HDMI to the receiver then HDMI to the TV am i Passing the True-HD track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Your player can pass the "track" decoded internally and as 5.1 PCM, but not the TrueHD bitstream itself (for decoding by your receiver).

So is there any sound difference between it being decoded internally as 5.1 PCM as opposed to the True HD bitstream?
post #1680 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernalfer View Post

So is there any sound difference between it being decoded internally as 5.1 PCM as opposed to the True HD bitstream?

It is my understanding that the outputted 5.1 PCM is bit-for-bit what is on the disc. It is then up to the DACs in your AVR or pre-pro to turn it into analog for amplification and reproduction from your speakers. If the disc has lossless PCM audio on it, then that is what's outputted via HDMI. If the disc has Dolby TrueHD, then that - currently - must be decoded internally and outputted as 5.1 PCM via HDMI. The lossless PCM or the TrueHD, instead of being passed as PCM via HDMI can be outputted via analog by using the players DACs. The decision of which DACs to use - player or AVR's/pre-pro's - will depend on which DACs are better.

It's not possible yet to pass the TrueHD bitstream via HDMI for EXTERNAL decoding.

Confusing, isn't it?
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