5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 8

I ve also made a thread in Holland on a huge HTforum where I come a lot.
I got some reactions from a few people with some new things I didn t see on this forum untill now.
Here are some of the reactions of them:

- One person is talking about jitter when using a HDMI connection to a receiver. Their seems to be some problems with that. (in my case, connecting to the analogue 7.1 ext. input, will I also have jitter problems if there ARE jitter problem?)

- Also someone mentioned that on the Meridian receivers the existing processors (150MIPS) on the inputs card probably can't handle 7.1 TrueHD. He said that here the solution will be multi processing? According to him more brands will have this problem.

the first reaction I understand and found out what jitter is. The second reaction however, I do not understand. Why is he talking about processors that would not be able to deal with 7.1 TrueHD? The decoding is done in the player right? So isn t it so that the receiver only amplifies the signal that is already HD? And what about this according to eg. my Denon A1-SRA? Can I ran into troubles with this too? And for all the receiver from level 5 and 6? He says the solution will be multi-processing. What does he mean with this?

Sorry AGAIN for only questions and no help..........

If you go to another page on the site here http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-mast...g-receiver.php you get relief!

"6 to 8 Channel Analog Connection

"In this scenario, the high definition player will output DTS-HD Audio through the analog outputs of the player to your AV Receiver. The DTS-HD Master Audio or DTS-HD High Resolution will be decoded by the player and sent out as analog audio signals to the AV Receiver. You would Simply connect 6, 7, or 8 RCA cables from the analog outputs of the player to the analog inputs on your AV Receiver. The number of analog cables will be determined by the number of analog output/inputs on the player and receiver. The analog signals will go directly to the receiver's amplifier section. In this way you can enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio that is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master."

Dana

pfffffffhewwwwwwwwwwww.................

won't HD players have onboard DTS-HD Master Audio decoders?

Not necessarily, as DTS-HD is optional for both flavors of high-def players.

Dana

Jitter is timing errors in digital data. This is really a non-issue, since most equipment re-clocks the data at some point before D/A conversion. In the case of 7.1 ext inputs, you don't have to worry about jitter since the connection is analogue.

Sanjay

Is there anybody here expert enough to say definitively, once and for all, if an HD DVD/BD player which decodes the new lossless audio formats can send to a CURRENT GENERATION HDMI RECEIVER (e.g. Yamaha RX-v1700) THROUGH THE SINGLE HDMI CABLE to be enjoyed in all their glory? Thank you and goodnight.
Belvista

See post #183 on the previous page.

"TrueHD and DTS-HD are lossless audio codec formats used on HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs. If the disk player can decode these streams into uncompressed audio, then HDMI 1.3 is not necessary, as all versions of HDMI can transport uncompressed audio."

The Yamaha RX-V1700 has HDMI version 1.2a. You're good to go!

Dana

Thank you Dana. Follow up question: doesn't look like the PS3 player will decode the new audio does it, making it a less than ideal BD player?
Belvista

Well, I'm not so sure. Here's what CNET had to say here http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_PlaySta...-31355103.html about the PlayStation 3 60 Gig as a Blu-ray player.

"As for the picture, it was quite comparable to what we saw on the Samsung, and navigating the disc was a fairly zippy process. In other words, at first glance, the PS3 seems to stack up fairly well against Blu-ray players costing nearly twice as much ($1,000), which may obviate the need for those players to actually exist.

"Furthermore, the PS3 is the first A/V device to hit the market to utilize the HDMI 1.3 specification. That doesn't mean much now--there's no corresponding HDMI 1.3 products to connect it to. But in the future--2007 and beyond--that should enable to PS3 to pass HD video and next-gen surround-sound audio (such as Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD) to compatible A/V receivers via a single HDMI cable. In the meantime, the PS3, like other Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, can pass 1080p HD video and uncompressed LPCM surround soundtracks to compatible A/V receivers and TVs.

"If we had one complaint with the PS3, it was that it didn't upscale standard DVDs to HD resolutions, a feature that's standard on other Blu-ray and HD-DVD players. Instead, they default to 480p (progressive-scan)."

Dana

HMDI capability will vary on different receivers. Some only act as signal switchers while others have the capability to accept and process the full resolution multi-channel decoded signal.

Same with the players. The Toshiba HD DVD player originally decoded only a 2-channel version of the lossless multi-channel track, until a firmware upgrade gave it the capability to decode 5.1 lossless. Some of the BD players don't have decoders for lossless codecs.

So there is no "definitive" answer to your question. You have to check the specs of the receiver AND the player to see if you can decode, transmit and receive the lossless audio formats.

Sanjay

Sanjay,

While I certainly agree in general with your comments, note that the original question was whether a high-dev player that does decode the new lossless codecs can send the multi-stream audio via HDMI for use by a current generation (not HDMI 1.3) receiver.

The answer is yes.

Dana

I'm a little confused. If level 6 receivers can output lossless 7.1 info, isn't that derived from the 5.1 output (using say, HD-DVD toshiba)? Doesn't this data have to be re-encoded in some way to (dolby D PLIIx) to matrix 7.1? Isn't this "lossy" once its re-encoded?

Does this imply that TrueHD is no longer lossless once you ask the receiver to convert 5.1 input (via HDMI) to 7.1 output?

Thanks,
Paul

Dana,
Are you sure the answer isn't "depends on the receiver"? The only reason I ask is because I was skimming a thread on one of the Pioneer receivers and there was a complaint that it only accepts 2-channel PCM via HDMI, not multi-channel.

It's a similar situation for pre-pros. The Halcro and NHT units can only accept 2 channels via their HDMI 1.2a input, while the Anthem and Lexicon units will accept multi-channel PCM over their HDMI 1.1 inputs.

Based on that, I don't think there is a "definitive" answer for all HDMI equipped receivers, since their capabilities seem to vary by model. If Belvista wants to hear the decoded lossless codecs "in all their glory" (i.e., all channels & full resolution), it wouldn't hurt to make sure the particular receiver model can accept multi-channel PCM over HDMI (as opposed to accepting only 2 channels or having only switching capability).

Sanjay

FFIW: Denon 4306 can receive multi channel PCM on it's HDMI 1.1 interface.

If you have a matching 3910 you can test this, by asking the 3910 to decode DD and DTS to multi channel PCM.

The 4306 displays multi channel PCM, and even handles this signal with Audissey.

Looking forward to HDDVD and Blu-Ray players to test this further.

Gaming on a PS3 will have killer surround as well...

Yes, of course you are correct. But, note again that the question had to do specifically with the Yamaha RX-V1700. The specs for that receiver indicate that it is equipped with two HDMI inputs and one HDMI output for digital multi-channel audio and video signals.

To the extent of a generalization, I took the thrust of the question to be "Will owners of current generation receivers have to upgrade to HDMI 1.3 to accept multi-channel audio via HDMI?" The answer is no. But, of course the "current generation receiver" would have to have HDMI, be capable of processing multi-channel PCM, etc.

President Harry Truman once said that he wished his economic advisers had only one arm. Then they couldn't say "On the one hand... but on the other hand..." I was merely trying to cut through the fog to answer one man's quite specific question.

Your advice is nonetheless valuable. Don't assume anything.

Dana

pellep2,

If the TrueHD data on the disc is 7.1, then the player should send that up the HDMI as 7.1. HDMI supports 8 channels.

I don't know if current players are capable of this though. And I wouldn't be surprised if some 7.1 amps actually only accept 5.1 HDMI input. Looking at the processing table in the Marantz SR7001 manual for example, that suggests it only accepts 5.1.

You might end up with 7.1 data on the disc being downmixed to 5.1 by the player, then reprocessed to 7.1 with ProLogic IIx or EX in the receiver.

But in principle, 7.1 on the disc should go through HDMI 1.1 fine.

You're right. You could also have mu-law or logarithmic sample quantisation, all of which are better than linear for a given number of bits, but harder to process. They used to be more common in computers with 8-bit sound systems, but pretty much all 16+ bit systems are now linear.

Although actually the resolution is finer at low levels. Gives you better dynamic range.

Yes - I realized that after I posted but never bothered to change it. Like the logarithmic sampling would correspond to quantization that is linear in dB - which makes a lot of sense since that's more like what we hear.

Ed

Dana,
Thank you for the elucidation. However, what I meant about the PS3 not being ideal as a player when combined with say the RX-V1700 was that the PS3 could not decode the new lossless audio, rendering it dependent on a next generation HDMI 1.3 receiver if True HD etc. is to be enjoyed. Am I correct in this?
Belvista

You're right. And, that's why it has HDMI 1.3, so it can pass Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams for external decoding by AV receivers.

Dana

about the fothcomming BR/HD-dvd players:

We know now that there are going to be models on the market that can do 7.1 output in TrueHD. However, I ve heard also that this will only be supported when using the HDMI output. Analogue, there will only be 5.1 output.

Is this story true?

Possibly. But that would just be cheap and nasty on their part. If they can decode 7.1 and send it over HDMI, then they can decode 7.1 and output it on analogue. They'd just be saving the cost of a couple more connectors.

No, that story is not correct. If the high-def player can decode TrueHD, it also could send the multi-channel PCM via six or eight channel line-level analog outputs to a similarly equipped receiver.

What is true is that if the receiver only has optical or coax digital inputs, the player could also send a decoded 5.1 multi-channel bitstream via a S/PDIF connection.

Note the word "could." As Sanjay has wisely pointed out above, this is a time for consumers to exercise "due diligence" in making purchasing decisions. Just because a published standard permits this or that does not mean that brand "X" includes these features.

Link: http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...-channel_a.php

Dana

Or worse, they will only have 2-channel analogue outputs, like the upcoming Toshiba HD-A2. That player will decode multi-channel TrueHD, but the only way to hear all the channels is via HDMI.

It's a little similar to the way DVD players are used, most of which are limited to stereo analogue outputs. If you want to hear multi-channel from a DVD, you're expected to use the player's digital connection.

Sanjay

so there are not any centainties that there will be BR/HD player in the near future that has analogue 7.1 ouput on board? So then in the end of this story I would still have to upgrade my Denon 5903 (eur. AVC A1-SRA) to a HDMI receiver......

??? There already is a Panny BR which has 7.1, so you shouldn't worry if you stay in BR camp.

But the funny this is this one only supports DD, DTS and DD+! So not the new formats TrueHD (or DTS-HD)

A new firmware supporting them is expected shortly.

I dont use Satalite/Sub systems so 7.1, 50.1(LOL) is unimportant to me I just use a (4 way plus Dialoge setup) with REAL speakers. What I need though is a Reciever that can decode All Digital formats, especially the Loseless/ Super HQ ones, a HUGE amount of connectors(I wanna be able to hook it up NO matter what the connector, so for example I want Fiber Optic AND Coax Optical audio connectors) Video handling is EXTREMLY important so if it has an HD Video tuner and Scaler and Maybe a Satalite Radio tuner built in, I could care less about the Amp section. In fact if thier is a device that can tune/decode just about EVERYTHING, Am,Fm, Regular and HDTV Video, ALL digital audio standards, can scale video and can act as a switch for audio and video,I could care less if the device EVEN had an amp built in,(I already have a Nice analog amp) is their something like this out there thats cheap(300 or so)