5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 96

Looks like the first (FAQ?) post hasn't been updated in a while. Just in case someone reads it and still thinks it's true. For the record, the Oppo BDP-83 puts out 7.1 PCM over HDMI and more bells & whistles too. I don't doubt there are others that support 7.1 PCM now.

I am considering to upgrade my electronics as my Receiver's sub output has died. I need to have something that can process the latest/loss-less format (True HD etc.). Since I use PS3 as a blue-ray player, I need to have a pre-amp processor or receiver for decoding. I can go with something like the future Outlaw 997 or similar (expensive for my budget) and a cheaper Amp (or use my current HK receiver as an amp). Or I can spend less to buy a Blue-ray player with 7.1 output like the Panasonic DMP-BD80 and more on a good amp. I guess my question is how much better will a dedicated processor be compared to a the decoder in a Blu-ray player. After all it is just decoding the binary digital info; isn't it ? Thanks in advance.

Your PS3 can decode the latest HD codecs and output it to the receiver as multichannel PCM via an HDMI connection. All you need is a receiver that can support HDMI audio.

Thanks Buckeye, I would like to avoid buying another BD player.
But will the decoding in the receiver be any better than the decoding in the BD player in terms of quality of sound ?

no



this is actually the opposite, with the PS3 you DON'T need the pre/pro to decode.

But I need a receiver with HDMI audio input, right ? (As against a BD player with 7.1 analog output which can be fed into any 7 channel amp)

yes, correct. any receiver which takes multichannel PCM audio over HDMI will work just fine with a PS3 doing all the decoding.

Are there other issues with buying a 7.1 receiver and only outputting in 5.1? My current theatre room is only about 11' x 13' for where the surround sound set-up is going to be. So it seems too small to really need 7.1 but I'll only be here for 2 or 3 more years so I'd like to get a 7.1 receiver to save buying a new one when I move in a few years.

I was looking at the Marantz 6001 but it only has 2 HDMI inputs and I have 3 devices I'd want to hook up with HDMI. Would it work to hook up the 3 HDMI cables to the tv and then just run an optical audio cable back to the receiver? I thought I saw something in here that you lose some audio quality or encoding using an optical cable. How else would you recommend doing it or should I just make sure to buy a receiver with 3 HDMI inputs?

The issue you cited was not caused by using a 7.1 AVR in 5.1 mode. It would be the same using a 5.1 AVR because that PS3 game apparently doesn't understand 5.1 properly.

As for loss of audio quality using the TV to output S/PDIF, that would be the case if the source feeding the TV has audio quality better than DVD or better than HDTV (like BD, HD-DVD, DVD-A). Otherwise, no (assuming the TV will actually pass thru any audio formats it cannot decode, like DTS. If not, then you lose quality and/or 5.1 capability).

I could not find the answer except seeing it noted as a concern.

I have read that some AVR's run out of DSP cycles when applying effects and room correction to high res audio. For example, to attempt running auddesey room correction on a Dolby TruHD 7.1 sound track.

Is there any way to tell if a given AVR has enough processor for effects and room correction of the highest res audio?


Ironlung

documentation is spotty, you pretty much have to just do the legwork and scope out owner's threads of models you are considering.

in general:

- Marantz AVR's do NOT allow for room EQ (Audyssey) with ANY bitstreamed HD codec, period. If you want a Marantz, you will need to set your BDP to decode and output as multich PCM

- Denon and Onkyo (as far as I know) in general will only give you problems with the occasional 192kHz disc, especially the Akira Blu-Ray with DOLBY TRUEHD at 24-bit/192kHz. I don't think there are any restrictions beyond that, except for maybe in lower level Onkyos that only have Audyssey 2EQ (which I've heard can't do Audyssey with anything above 48kHz, but don't quote me!).

- I don't know of any such restrictions for Yamaha and Pioneer, but then again they don't use Audyssey so their EQ programs aren't going to be as DSP intensive (generally it's just a parametric EQ) so there shouldn't be any problems.

The Yamaha RX-V3900 has no processing restriction as far as I know no matter what it's doing. It uses two TI DSPs presumably so it can decode and process at the same time.

I am not sure about the cheaper Yamaha models with one DSP chip. Here's a quote from the 665 manual -

"When you play back the Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS Express, DTS-HD Master Audio, or DTS-HD High Resolution Audio sources, this unit
does not apply any sound field program other than the surround decoder and they are played back in straight decode mode."

So PCM from the player is a better option if you want to apply those modes. Of course, you would have to live without the happy decoder light lighting up. Life is tough that way.

Would Statement D2V fit the profile of "future proof" pre/pro??

Nothing is. Unless the unit is modular and designed with great foresight, I cannot see how.

How's the Pioneer 81TXV?

I see that it is a Level 6. Meaning that it will provide me with 7.1 LCPM over HDMI correct?

What does it mean by applying all 3 processing to digital signals? Can someone explain? is 3 the limit or is it on par in terms of process with all the other newer receivers? DD HD DTS MS not withstanding.

also, will it send all my component through HDMI as well? I don't really care about scaling in the receiver.

Thanks.

i know its a long shot, but what is the least expensive receiver that will do lpcm over hdmi?

i jsut want to hook it up to my ps3 for gaming and blurays.

YAMAHA 5.1-Channel Digital Home Theater Receiver RX-V465 is the best in that class.

I'm with blazed with a similar question.

I can't enjoy the lossless HD sound Dolby HD and DTS Ma, unless I port that from my Insignia NS-BRDVD3 blu-ray player,through my receiver with the HDMI, it won't pass through on the coax digital, or optical out, right? My Technics SA-DX 1050 processes the older Dolby and DTS, but not the newer codecs?

Which is a shame as I have a good a/v receiver. I guess my next question is what is the lowest price a/v receiver that has at least 3 real HDMI connections that will do this for me. I think I asked Batpig this question with the added request of having phono, but Denon puts that on their 2809ci receiver, and a friend said that I should just buy a cheaper A/V receiver and invest that change on a separate phono stage that will handle MC as well as MM cartridges.
Sorry for the drift.
Back the main question.
I looked at the Pioneer VSX-1019, but that seems to be a little overpriced right now, and that Denon mentioned above is last year's model, right?
Thanks,
Lyndon
P.S. Oh, and what kind of quality will I get with PQ and audio with the Netflix downstreaming, which is on that player? I do know it is partly dependent on my download speed and quality.

Batpig gave you good advice plus with Denon you get Audyssey Room EQ, probably more important than lossless audio.

Thanks, Gary J.
Is there a thread about recertified Denons?
There was one on the net last night, and right after I read your post, I checked, and it was...GONE!

I wonder about the Denon authorized refurbs.

Lyndon

If there is I guess using the Search Function would be the way to find it. Maybe you can find something like the Denon 2807 from a good reseller. A few years old with HDMI and Audyssey.

Will using the latest HDMI cable Vers 1.3a connecting a Blu-ray player (HDMI vers 1.3 with onboard decoding for True HD etc...) to a Receiver with HDMI vers.1.2 pass all the lossless compressed digital audio formats through the Receiver?

Any version HDMI cable will!

hey all i was reading the first post by the op saying that a minimum level 1.1 HDMI is required to recieve lossless audio send as PCM but from what read all you need is 1.0.

"The original HDMI v1.0 spec was and remains sufficient for most purposes. The reason is that it is a solid backwards-compatible format that can , through PCM audio handle all of the high definition audio formats present today. The key is having a player that can decode these native HD audio formats to uncompressed PCM."

"Dolby TrueHD is based on the original Meridian Lossless Packing profile that was developed for DVD-Audio, in which eight channels are compressed to take up less space but then exactly reconstructed by the player so there are no losses. If you get a Blu-ray player that will "unpack" or decode Dolby TrueHD and output it via HDMI in PCM form, then you all you need is an AV receiver that’s capable of receiving multi-channel PCM via HDMI. Any version of HDMI cable will carry multi-channel PCM -- including HDMI 1.0 through HDMI 1.3. However, your AV receiver must be able to deal with eight channels of PCM audio via HDMI connection."

I have an old crappy reciever that is HDMI 1.0 (LG AV receiver AR702BR ) but it is only 5.1 channel. I'm not sure How many channels of PCM audio can be accepted via it's HDMI connection plus i'm also not sure if i setup a bluray player to do the decoding of lossless true HD and DTS master audio to PCM and send that to the LG AV receiver AR702BR via HDMI with 8 channel audio (7.1) if will the receiver down convert it automatically to 6 channel (5.1) PCM audio ?? since it is a 5.1 av receiver after all.

Any thoughts ??

see the wikipedia page for information of what formats HDMI versions support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

NB if the PLAYER instead of the AVR decodes the formats then the output is usually PCM. So interpret the page accordingly

Not sure if you were talking to me krabapple but The wiki page states ( i only took out what was relevant to my post ) :

"HDMI 1.0 was released December 9, 2002 and is a single-cable digital audio/video connector interface with a maximum TMDS bandwidth of 4.9 Gbit/s. It supports up to 3.96 Gbit/s of video bandwidth (1080p/60 Hz or UXGA) and 8 channel LPCM/192 kHz/24-bit audio. 8 channel LPCM, 192 kHz, 24 bit audio capability - "Yes"."

i understand that the output will be PCM, my questions were that i wasn't sure how many channels of PCM audio can be accepted via HDMI connection... by that i mean if i send an 8 channel PCM (7.1) from the BD player to my receiver if it would work.. would the receiver take that 8 channel PCM signal and down convert it properly to a 6 channel PCM signal, since the receiver is only 5.1ch.

i thought maybe there might be a bottle neck in how many PCM channels it could recieve, maybe it could only receive a 2ch PCM max.. i don't know.

Hope i havent confused you. hope to hear back from you guys. regards Marty.

Depends on the source-

Some will down mix the channels

While another may drop the 2 channels..

Alright, I'm still reading what I can, but:
I hooked up HDMI from my PS3 to my new Yamaha (RX-V863) and put in a BluRay (Gladiator). The receiver just says "PCM" - not DTS or anything. Also the sound balance sounds a bit off - it's hard to hear the dialog (could be because my center speaker is kind of behind the TV right now. Regardless, do I have it set right?

On my old Onkyo I loved seeing it light up DTS or Dolby Digital EX when that mode was on. I guess I'm just confused what is the 'right' way to hook this up to enjoy the DTS-HD sound.

Well it's a very well-worn topic now, but while it's nice to see the little light come up, there's no good reason not to decode in the player and send PCM to the receiver.... and a couple of reasons in the other direction.

For what it's worth, I moved up to the PS3 Slim a few months ago. It can output TrueHD and DTS-MA as bitstream if desired.
I tried this just for the sake of trying. (Accompanying gear can be seen by clicking on my signature).

Of course, the little light came up, but there was no difference in sound, and some menu effects weren't being mixed in. I vaguely recall some switching delays and dropouts too, but they were slight.

So, just set the PS3 to PCM output. End of story.

Thanks for the response.

After reading that, I have to admit, I'm still tempted to go to the PS3 and change it, like you said, to bitstream just so I'll know what type of sound it's decoding.

See, I just don't get it yet. Pre-HDMI, it was all easy. I'd seek out the DVDs with DDEX or DTS-ES, and watch my receiver auto-detect it. That meant, it was decoding the signal in DTS-ES.

So, what we're saying now is, the PS3 decodes the DTS-HD sound, and then just sends it straight across to the receiver? So the receiver does nothing more than send the sound straight to the speakers?