5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 100

Fact is I own a Pioneer SC-27. Very nice receiver that will last me for years, just like my Denon 4806CI did. Do I care about 3D? Nope! Would I like Pioneer to offer an upgrade just like H/K? Sure! Am I holding my breath? Nope! Fact: Do you have proof that it can't be done? NOPE!!

No need to compromise. Don't really care what his answer, thoughts are. Just waiting for him to show me proof that it can't be done. But he can't :-(

As I asked you FIRST, when you first started your rant! Do YOU have proof it can be done? No, you have not proved it, you have no proof at all! What H/K says they are planing to do has no bearing on what any other manufacturer can do or has plans for. So THAT, is not proof of anything other that what H/K has plans for.

Old topic, forgive me, I'm still learning. Can't make any sense of "PCM format through analog output" - in the very 1st message of this apparently good topic.

PCM is a digital format (uncompressed and lossless) that you can get from digital connectors such as HDMI, coaxial or optical.

Unless things have changed since 2006, the term "Analog Output" means analog signal or a connector with such a signal. On BD or DVD players it is usually an array of red and white RCA connectors (like those on sound speakers).

There is no PCM signal on designated analog connectors/outputs of DVD or BD

What he means is that you are getting an original lossless PCM signal converted to analog and output via the RCA jacks. Versus these alternatives

1) lossless PCM send digitally to the AVR, where it is converted to analog, and output to speakers
2) lossy bitstream Dolby Digital or DTS decoded to PCM in the player, and output by the player to AVR as analog via RCA jacks
3) lossy bitstream DD or DTS sent digitally to AVR and decoded to PCM, and output as analog to speakers

Yes. Analog jacks output analog (usually 2.0) sin wave, not PCM signal. More a semantics mater. The source disc could be PCM, but it is processed in the player DAC before being fed to analog output. I've got impression that player's DAC is usually inferior to the receiver's (unless it's really top-end player).

More a pedantics matter. And a very silly one at that.



Audibly inferior, or on paper?

For the best foolproof gear, read the last (sticky) page of the thread "List of Digital Home Theater Receivers"

Forget analog, go inexpensive and superior all-digital!

Is it me, or does this sticky need to be revised?

heh, I think so. Heck, I thought I was future-proofing myself just by having HDMI on my receiver.

Yes. This thread is woefully out of date and should be un-stickied...

Why?
Only if you want to transfer DSD from Super Audio CDs or want to use CEC, you need HDMI 1.2a.
Anything (Edit: except ARC) added by HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 is not related to a "Future-Proof Receiver".

So: Keep your old, good sounding receiver and spend your money elsewhere.

If multichannel PCM was in HDMI 1.1, DSD was in 1.2, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-Ma are in 1.3, why is it that some of the receivers bearing 1.3 designation don't support DSD? Do they all support PCM? Is there a bitrate limitation? Are these requirements of the spec or are they just prerequisites. Do vendors just choose to implement some of the features?

I never got a chance to test my current receiver with a new HDMI DSD SACD player (SCD-XA5400ES). I'm unaware of a requirement that all 1.3 HDMI receivers must support DSD.

PCM and DSD are modulation types (source recording types)
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are codecs (compression schemes; albeit lossless)

The receiver, bearing in mind it was doing the decoding, would needs it's own DSD DAC, I presume. So, a receiver that has 1.3 HDMI from a manufacturing standpoint would have meet the minimum standards of supporting PCM demodulation since that's what most players output.

I'm the only reason my old receiver was able to output the DSD source from my SACD player was because my outs were analog, thus bypassing a "missing" DSD DAC in the receiver.

Multichannel PCM (8 channel LPCM/192 kHz/24-bit audio) was already in version 1.0!
HDMI is the transport. If your receiver doesn't have a DSD decoder, it can't handle DSD. I quote from wikipedia: Yes, but it depends on your receiver, how many channels of it.
???
Would there be a difference? Yes. See above.

FWIW, multichannel (and sometimes 2 channel) DSD is also losslessly compressed on SACDs -- the codec is called DST. (This seems to be less well known than the fact that multichannel PCM is losslessly compressed on DVD-A using the MLP codec.)

Yeah, I didn't list PCM and DSD as non-losses since I figured most would already know it was the pure unadulterated source.

But I'm less familiar with the codec DST. Does that mean we can stream the pure DSD, with proper source player and destination receiver, without DST being used (a choice)? Or are all DSD sources automatically use the DST codec implemented as a standard (to save bandwidth).

I know it wont sound any different. Just wondering since I wanted to make sure that DST wasn't hard-coded into the DSD standard format.

From what you said, it seems like the moment that all DSD sources are recorded they automatically get DST codec in order to "fit" it on the SACD disc.

The reason I also asked is because in theory, a studio could record a movie in DSD (compress via DST), then release the movie on Blu-ray further compressed (also lossless) with Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA!

Of course, unless they wanted to release a DSD/DST only recording on Blu-ray (like some 5.1-7.1 PCM uncompressed Blu-rays currently on the market).

Whether an SACD uses compression or not, it wll never be exposed to the consumer in compressed form, so no need for an AV processor to be aware of it.

Ok, thanks. It's transparent and only used on the back-end of source production. Good to know.

One of the reasons I posted my first question about HDMI versions and features implemented on the receivers, is this. I have a HK AVR 745. It is HDMI 1.1 but it only supports 1080i pass through. Even though it is a 7.2 channel receiver, it can do 5.1 PCM all the way to 24-bit/192kHz (even though I think the eDID only says 96kHz). So, when I hook up a gen 1 PS3 to it through HDMI and do a HDMI audio autosetup on PS3, the PS3 selects PCM 5.1 upto 96khz and none of the 7.1. I have enjoyed using the 745 and it is a solid receiver.

Last week, on a whim, I bought a NAD T747. It is supposed to be delivered today. This is a HDMI 1.3 receiver and they advertise that it does Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-Ma. However, I am more interested in PCM capability since my gen1 PS3 internally decodes all lossless audio (including SACDs) to multi channel PCM. When I talked to NAD support they told me they do only 48kHz PCM. I hope that was incorrect and when I do a HDMI audio setup on PS3, it checks off higher sample rate options. It would be a bummer to lose higher sample rate PCM on a newer receiver when the 745 could do it. For example, my multichannel SACD tracks were output as 24-bit, 176.4kHz 5.1 PCM from my PS3 to the HK 745 and they sounded amazing. Well, I will know tonight how the T747 does.

I said multichannel DSD is compressed, and 2channel may or may not be. That's the same situation as with PCM on DVD-A. It's due to space considerations.

I was never sure if DST-DSD (or MLP-PCM for that matter) streamed out of a transport to a compatible outboard DAC was decompressed first, but Roger Dressler's reply makes me think it always is.

I second the motion. I am forking 2 grand for the second time in 2 years because my 1.3 hdmi receiver will not transmit 3d and it is not firmware fixable. I bought the receiver first because I figured they were the most future proof component. How wrong I was. Now that 3d has arrived I have decided to get the rest of the theater and have discovered that there is no such thing as a future proof receiver.

Kill the sticky.

IMO the only future proof components are speakers.

Strike that too.

Think about it like this. Class D amps being perfected and going down the cost curve. At the same time, "AV receivers" are basically preamps with cursory and ever-decreasing quality of amplification.

How long before the class D amps are being widely packaged an a single package with the full range loudspeaker and the "AV receiver" turned into a pure processor with just analog preamp outputs and no speaker jacks?

If you are using digital amps, why do you want analog outputs?

Take a look at what Meridian is doing (and has been doing for years) with their processors and DSP speakers. At the other end of the spectrum, see the new Aperion Intimus systems: http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/...57,84,788.aspx

As and advertiser supported reviewer I can see your point of view.
However the gentle reader is advised that Meridian is extremely expensive - up to $250,000 per component.
The Aperion system is interesting, but the site is highly biased in not presenting the drawbacks. Each speaker requires an A/C power cord, which defeats most of the wireless philosophy. The 5GHz spectrum is subject to even shorter distances than 2GHz. Interference causing dropouts has to be an issue.
Consumers appear to be locked-in to this companies proprietary products.
The quality of the amplifiers in the speakers are not discussed. I'd guess they use the same Pulsus all-digital technology available in the $300 7.1 Samsung 700 all-digital receiver, which I strongly recommend.

First off, I offered them as examples in principle. It was not a specific recommendation.

Second, as for the remark about being an "advertiser supported reviewer," piss off. I have no concern about advertisements and choose what I want to review independently.


Acknowledged.


In fact, the Aperion system is based on the Summit Wireless technology which is being adopted by other manufacturers. Finally, all so-called wireless speakers require either batteries or an AC connection and purchasers should be aware of that.

ok please help me here

i just got yamaha advanteage 800 receiver to go along with 50 inch samsung
plasma i got a few months ago. ive had the blu ray player for about 6 months now.


do i need either 1.3 or 1.4 hdmi cables to get the lossless true dolby digital
and/or true dts sound when playing blu ray movies that have it? or are my
regular hdmi cables good enough for it to work? my new yam 800 rec is 7.1
or 7.2 with all the bells and whistles so i need to find this out for sure.


what else do i need to know about these new 1.3 and/or 1.4 hdmi cables?
i know 1.4 is 3d ready but i dont ever think i will go 3d.

please email me at ROSSINFL@HOTMAIL.COM if you can b/c i dont check here
much or forgot which thread i posted on lol

or pm me here or post a reply here and i should find it

i just love how blu ray looks on my 1080p samsung plasma 50 inch. i used to have
real old panasonic 47 inch proj hdtv that only did 1080i. it had no hdmi

thanks again

If you already have HDMI cables, try them. They should work.



Here.

Bommai:
I have that exact same receiver (HK745 AVR) and it is awesome. Here is how I dealt with the 1080p and 1.3 conundrum. I have a 65" RPHDTV. So I routed all 4 HD sources into a Monoprice HDMI Matrix Switcher/Splitter (model HDX-402E). This is a great switch from Monoprice with tremendous reviews for $50-$70. What's neat is it has dual outputs A & B that work simuiltaneously and switches automatically. So I send the Panny Blu-Ray player, XBox 360, FIOS HD Box, and Toshiba A135 HD-DVD player directly into it. I send the HDMI HD signal directly to the HDTV via 1080P from output "A" on the switcher. I simultaneously send the same signal out to the HK 745 AVR via Output "B". I then loop an output signal back into a second HDMI input on the HDTV from the HK 745 in 1080i. The purpose of the HK 745 output is simply to send upconverted 1080i content to the HDTV from other video formats like Laser discs, SD-DVD, old XBox and the HK 745's setup/adjustment diagnostics. It works perfectly! There is zero audio sync lag from output A on the screen to output B in the AVR. The picture is in Full 1080p HD or any format I want. The sound from the HK is in its full 7.2 and glory. And the young'uns can listen to the whole thing through the HDTV without engaging the HK 745. Go on the Monoprice website and check it out. It is a highly recommended accessory that is also compatible with Harmony Remotes. That 745 is a great receiver. And there is no need to change it out because it doesn't do 1080p. It does everything else right. And the Mono switch solves the 1080p issue for 50 bucks.