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5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 12

post #331 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

duck, and buy a nice stereo integrated amp.

Amen!
post #332 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

It strikes me that this thread should be combined with info from my LFE interconnect thread. It's all very well a receiver supporting 7.1 PCM input, but if it can't get the LFE level right, you're not going to be a happy bunny if you ever want to hook it up to a BD or HD player. And it seems that the majority of receivers can't currently get the LFE level right.
[...]
On the positive side, any fix should just be firmware. It's pretty trivial, given that they can get it right for internal DD and DTS decode.

A quick adjustment in the player fixes this problem. Since there's a well-known fix, for anyone that's posted this as a problem, I don't see it necessary to remove receivers for this reason. However, when I have the spare time, I will update the first post to reflect this information, and how to fix it in the player. Thanks.
post #333 of 3041
Thread Starter 
oops, double post
post #334 of 3041
Not all players have such an adjustment for HDMI output. Many don't, and I wouldn't really expect them to.

And the work-around with adjustments would be to lower all the other channels by 10dB, leading to an irritating level discrepancy, not to mention loss in signal-to-noise ratio.
post #335 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post


At the minute, the only receivers I know of offering this are Denon 3806, 4306, 4806CI (not 4806), and presumably later models, as well as current Onkyos. Pioneer Elites and Yamaha RX models don't. I don't know about Marantz.

Given price and everything, I might have to give that Onkyo 804 a much closer look.
post #336 of 3041
Hmm, is the 804 new? Sure when I looked recently there was nothing between the 604 and the 5000. I'll have to look at this too.

Edit: Ah, I think I did look at it, but I ruled it out because I want a digital interconnect for SACD; it doesn't offer HDMI 1.2, i.Link or anything else.
post #337 of 3041
Rob,
Quote:
Would it be fair to guess that eventually all of these players (HD-DVD and Blu-ray) will eventually get to the point where they all have the advanced audio decoders in them, which would make having the decoder in the receiver moot anyway?

One can hope. Two things could happen as new, lower priced hi-def players come to market: decoder chips become cheap enough that players can decode everything internally; or manufacturers save money by leaving out all but the basic (mandated by spec) decoding, leaving the rest up to receivers.

Personally, I would prefer if format recognition and decoding were to move completely to players. This way, receivers would have to deal with incoming PCM signals only. Hypothetically, if some new audio codec shows up (Dolby Truly TrueHD or DD+++), you'll have to change players anyway. But if the new players decode the signal and output it as PCM, then your investment in your current receiver is safe.

New formats and players could keep on coming out, but your receiver would always see a PCM signal coming over HDMI. I think it would make upgrading less painful, hopefully encouraging consumers to embrace new technology a bit more easily.
Quote:
Don't almost all SD DVD players have DD and DTS decoders in them, for example?

Hardly any DVD players with DTS decoding. All do DD decoding, but most output only a 2-channel version (either through analogue connections or as PCM via the digital outputs).

The common way to hear multi-channel audio on DVD is to transmit the undecoded signal to your receiver, where proper decoding can take place; the opposite of the current trend with hi-def players.

Sanjay
post #338 of 3041
Thanks for the clarificaton Sanjay.

I agree with you about preferring that format recognition and decoding were to move completely to players, especially since I am considering uprading my pre/pro to an Anthem AVM50 or D2!
post #339 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Hmm, is the 804 new? Sure when I looked recently there was nothing between the 604 and the 5000. I'll have to look at this too.

Edit: Ah, I think I did look at it, but I ruled it out because I want a digital interconnect for SACD; it doesn't offer HDMI 1.2, i.Link or anything else.

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Receiver&p=i

I think the 804 is only 1.1, but I think it's pretty compelling at the sale prices I see at Vanns and One Call right now. It's something to chew on, at least for me...
post #340 of 3041
Im failing to see why the Panasonic XR700 isnt a level 6???? Is it because it doesnt have 7.1 analog inputs(only has 5.1) and because it has no room correction abilities?
post #341 of 3041
Same here. I just think that the list has not been updated yet. I just came across the XR700 for a little over $500. It does 7.1 LPCM over HDMI and looks to be a very promising receiver. May have to reconsider the Onkyo 604. Anyone have one yet?
post #342 of 3041
Oh yes. I like it a lot, especially paired with the Panny BD10 Blu-ray disc player. There's a thread on it here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...31#post9024831

Dana
post #343 of 3041
Thread Starter 
The XR700 is in a unique position because it doesn't allow processing over PCM signals. Even though they could easily do it, the braindead engineers haven't added the feature. Therefore, I'm stuck with trying to figure out how to make it a level 6 receiver, when it doesn't meet level 5 standards.
post #344 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

The XR700 is in a unique position because it doesn't allow processing over PCM signals. Even though they could easily do it, the braindead engineers haven't added the feature. Therefore, I'm stuck with trying to figure out how to make it a level 6 receiver, when it doesn't meet level 5 standards.

What processing are you refering to? I was under the impression that IIX can be added to 5.1 PCM?
post #345 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

The XR700 is in a unique position because it doesn't allow processing over PCM signals. Even though they could easily do it, the braindead engineers haven't added the feature. Therefore, I'm stuck with trying to figure out how to make it a level 6 receiver, when it doesn't meet level 5 standards.

Could you elaborate on "processing over PCM signals" please? Thanks.

Dana
post #346 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

Could you elaborate on "processing over PCM signals" please? Thanks.

Dana

Maybe he means via the analog inputs?
post #347 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

What processing are you refering to? I was under the impression that IIX can be added to 5.1 PCM?

The first post defines the three different types of processing. The Panasonic, according to the manual can't apply any of these to PCM (over HDMI or analog). It doesn't meet the level 5 criteria.
post #348 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

The first post defines the three different types of processing. The Panasonic, according to the manual can't apply any of these to PCM (over HDMI or analog). It doesn't meet the level 5 criteria.

First Lindahl, thanks for a fantastic informative thread.
Not doubting you but I got the manual in front of me... can you give a page number? I dont have this player yet but Dronbi has confirmed that it will apply IIX to 5.1 PCM. We know it wont do room corrections.
Level trims, distance and bass management.... Can you confirm any of this Dronobi?
I suppose level trims would be easy to confirm... play a PCM title and move a speaker level up and down on the receiver.
As far as bass management.... again while playing a PCM title, disconnect all speakers(including subs) except for one of the front mains. Switch back and forth between large and small on the speaker setting on the receiver. This should significantly change bass output.(large would be fuller and small should be lacking in bass).
As far as distance... your on your own!
post #349 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

First Lindahl, thanks for a fantastic informative thread.
Not doubting you but I got the manual in front of me... can you give a page number? I dont have this player yet but Dronbi has confirmed that it will apply IIX to 5.1 PCM. We know it wont do room corrections.
Level trims, distance and bass management.... Can you confirm any of this Dronobi?
I suppose level trims would be easy to confirm... play a PCM title and move a speaker level up and down on the receiver.
As far as bass management.... again while playing a PCM title, disconnect all speakers(including subs) except for one of the front mains. Switch back and forth between large and small on the speaker setting on the receiver. This should significantly change bass output.(large would be fuller and small should be lacking in bass).
As far as distance... your on your own!

Page 35 of the manual sets out how to set speakers and their sizes, set distances and the low pass filter. Likewise, I cannot find a page in the manual where it says the XR700 can't decode Dolby Digital or DTS received by HDMI or analog.

Dana
post #350 of 3041
Page 26 of the manual says "Digital signals this unit can play:
"Dolby Digital (including Dolby Digital Surround EX), DTS (including DTS-ES and DTS 96/24) and PCM (-> page 39)" Page 39 defines these terms.

The same page also confirms what we already know. " The unit is compatible with linear PCM 8-channel surround signals decoded by the BD player and other equipment (up to 96 kHz/24 bit). See the operating instructions for equipment used for playback."

Dana
post #351 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

Page 26 of the manual says "Digital signals this unit can play:
"Dolby Digital (including Dolby Digital Surround EX), DTS (including DTS-ES and DTS 96/24) and PCM (-> page 39)" Page 39 defines these terms.

The same page also confirms what we already know. " The unit is compatible with linear PCM 8-channel surround signals decoded by the BD player and other equipment (up to 96 kHz/24 bit). See the operating instructions for equipment used for playback."

Dana

Some receivers cant do certain stuff when receiving PCM... everything falls back on the player. Can you test any of the above stuff I stated?
post #352 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeinnj View Post

May have to reconsider the Onkyo 604.

On paper it sounds like a terrific value; can apply surround processing and Audyssey room correction to multi-channel audio via HDMI.

Sanjay
post #353 of 3041
Probably this receiver will not sound familiar with you guys but still, maybe you guys can find out what type (level 1,2,3,4,5 or 6) of receiver this is....... I can get this one for a great price maybe........
Arcam AVR-350
post #354 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeman02 View Post

Use "surround speaker" connections for 5.1 setup and leave the "surround back" free. No adjustments need to be made in the receiver for 5.1 vs 7.1, you'll be fine.

Ok I have the reciever now, Onkyo 503, and I'm having a problem I'm hoping can be helped....problem is I have my Xbox 360 connected via optical and there's no sound coming from it. I changed the 360 audio settings to DD 5.1, I tried assigning the digital inputs, I tried setting the inputs to auto, but the receiver is acting as if nothing is plugged into the optical inputs. Yes, I took the little rubber protectors off the optical cables. Is it broken?
post #355 of 3041
The Arcam AVR-350 was reviewed here http://www.hometheaterblog.com/homet...avr350_71.html last June. It doesn't support audio over HDMI so it would be considered a Level 2 receiver according to Lindahl's definitions on the first page..

Dana
post #356 of 3041
The Pioneer Elite 84 has been confirmed by several owners in that thread as level 6.

What about the Yamaha 1700/2700? Level 5 for sure, but what about 6, considering HDMI 1.2a is in the cards?
post #357 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

On paper it sounds like a terrific value; can apply surround processing and Audyssey room correction to multi-channel audio via HDMI.

Sanjay

It's interesting that the more expensive Onkyo 804 does not appear to have the Audyssey room correction feature.
post #358 of 3041
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

It's interesting that the more expensive Onkyo 804 does not appear to have the Audyssey room correction feature.

Despite the similarities in numbering, I believe it's an older model. I disagree with Sanjay. The Onkyo 604 isn't that great of a deal since, according to the manual, it won't do processing on PCM signals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

First Lindahl, thanks for a fantastic informative thread.
Not doubting you but I got the manual in front of me... can you give a page number?

The below shows that it can't do DPLIIx processing on PCM sources (Dolby Digital and DTS sources only).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic XR57 Manual - Page 24 View Post

Dolby Pro Logic IIx
Dolby Pro Logic offers you multi-channel playback of stereo sources.
The technology enables you to play 5.1-channel Dolby Digital and DTS sources on
7.1 channels (when two surround back speakers are connected to the unit) and on
6.1 channels (when only one surround back speaker is connected).
The technology makes surround back channels available for the playback of
Dolby Digital Surround EX sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

I dont have this player yet but Dronbi has confirmed that it will apply IIX to 5.1 PCM.

It appears the manual is wrong, then. Generally if a receiver can do one sort of processing on a PCM signal, it can do all, and visa versa - if it can't do one of them, it can't do them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

Level trims, distance and bass management.... Can you confirm any of this Dronobi?

Yes, confirmation would be nice. Considering the manual is wrong, and you can do DPLIIx on PCM signals, you can probably also do the above on PCM signals. I've updated the first post to reflect this for both the XR57 and XR700 (since I assume they function identically with respect to processing on PCM).
post #359 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

...

It appears the manual is wrong, then. Generally if a receiver can do one sort of processing on a PCM signal, it can do all, and visa versa - if it can't do one of them, it can't do them all...

Yes, confirmation would be nice. Considering the manual is wrong, and you can do DPLIIx on PCM signals, you can probably also do the above on PCM signals. I've updated the first post to reflect this for both the XR57 and XR700 (since I assume they function identically with respect to processing on PCM).

We can't find in the manual where it states something wrong. Do you have a page, paragraph, etc.?

Dana
post #360 of 3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

It's interesting that the more expensive Onkyo 804 does not appear to have the Audyssey room correction feature.

Onkyo SR804 has a feature called Re-EQ (a product of THX Ltd). Here is what owner's manual (page# 66) says:
Quote:


With the Re-EQ function, you can correct a soundtrack whose high-frequency content is too harsh, making it more suitable for home theater viewing. This function can be used with the following listening modes: Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic II Movie, Dolby Pro Logic IIx Movie, DTS, DTSES, DTS Neo:6 Cinema, DTS 96/24, THX Cinema, THX Surround EX, THX Select2 Cinema, and Multichannel.
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