AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › CRT Projectors › Driver Level Blender Project
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Driver Level Blender Project

post #1 of 34
10/23/06 at 4:36pm
Thread Starter 
Im getting more motivated to do this now so I'll start a thread here.

The basic premise is:

- 1 virtual display to show the source material (1920x1080)
- 2 monitor windows assigned a location inside the virtual display (left side / right side)
- fancy blending and overlapping algorithms.

And then later:

- easy to use setup program
- unlimited projectors 3x2, 3x3, 6x3 etc
- if you use an HDCP compliant Video Card, an internal NEC100A and WinDVD 8 you can blend HDDVD movies. (this is my ultimate goal )
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 34
10/23/06 at 5:02pm
Hello

Two projectors on a twenty percent overlap works well, no one has gone very far with this using PCs however.......
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 34
10/23/06 at 5:35pm
Sounds real nice if you could make it happen; Now when it will run on my Geforce 5500 I'll take it

Hope you can make it work
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 34
10/23/06 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim View Post

Hello

Two projectors on a twenty percent overlap works well, no one has gone very far with this using PCs however.......

Well I got DirectShow to blend ok, and then I got full screen to blend ok (but slow frame rate), so the driver level blender should be a workable solution. There are no technical hurdles to cross here, but it is a pain in the butt, and time consuming, working in kernel mode.
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 34
10/23/06 at 6:16pm
Go for it luke
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 34
10/23/06 at 6:21pm
I second that
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 34
10/23/06 at 6:22pm
Do you understand the shortcoming of the Nvidia powerwall driver implementation. Seems that even with proper blend settings, there is a bright line at one edge of the blend area. No offence, but if Nvidia could not get it to work in the driver, are we sure there is not some hardware limitation?

BTW... I'm all for this too, just disappointed that the "feature" does not seem to work in Nvidia's drivers already.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 34
10/23/06 at 7:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Briands View Post

Do you understand the shortcoming of the Nvidia powerwall driver implementation. Seems that even with proper blend settings, there is a bright line at one edge of the blend area. No offence, but if Nvidia could not get it to work in the driver, are we sure there is not some hardware limitation?

BTW... I'm all for this too, just disappointed that the "feature" does not seem to work in Nvidia's drivers already.

i know about the white line. thats just the blending algorithm - a non-linear ramp will solve that.
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 34
10/24/06 at 8:41am
What type of hardware requirement are we looking at for the blend rig. Would this be a piece of code that could be used for many different cards or would it be hardware specific. If this could be done so it could be implemented on our prexisting hardware I'm sure it would be widely used; although if it could be done and built into some sort of cheaper Blendzilla like rig I'd also be all for it.

Hope You Can Make It Work
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 34
10/24/06 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Briands View Post

Do you understand the shortcoming of the Nvidia powerwall driver implementation. Seems that even with proper blend settings, there is a bright line at one edge of the blend area. No offence, but if Nvidia could not get it to work in the driver, are we sure there is not some hardware limitation?

BTW... I'm all for this too, just disappointed that the "feature" does not seem to work in Nvidia's drivers already.

Well, VLC works, so it isn't a hardware problem.
It isn't so much that Nvidia *can't* get their driver working properly, more that they have no interest in doing so.
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 34
10/24/06 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke212 View Post

i know about the white line. thats just the blending algorithm - a non-linear ramp will solve that.

There seem to be some people out there that have "alternative" versions of the Nvidia drivers. Would it be possible to "simply" substitute the non-linear ramp into the existing driver?
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 34
10/24/06 at 10:15pm
Luke,

You might want to look at this whitepaper on multi-monitor support using miniport drivers: http://whitepapers.techrepublic.com....2&promo=300111 and this http://www.codeproject.com/system/driverdev6asp.asp

Regards.
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 34
10/25/06 at 1:21am
Im not so sure that it is Nvidia that have it wrong....................

Did anyone who was testing the Nvidia system actually fully calibrate the PJ's

I know I did not...........

I now have the senecore colourimeter so this will help I hope.......


MY real issue with Nvidia was the non stable DVI use.....

I hope to have resolved that, and it was not just Nvidia with that DVi issue.............



Keep me posted, Im happy to test anything.......



I am soon gonna test the VLC route, my new PC is being built as we speak.......

It includes QUAD SLi system, 4Gb V fast ram, AMD 64 processor, HD SDI capture card for my HD SDi HD DVD player............few other little tricks........

So NO I dont think there will be a hardware issue.........!
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 34
10/25/06 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by antorsae View Post

Luke,

You might want to look at this whitepaper on multi-monitor support using miniport drivers: http://whitepapers.techrepublic.com....2&promo=300111 and this http://www.codeproject.com/system/driverdev6asp.asp

Regards.

tnx i was aware of this site and yes it is very useful
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 34
10/25/06 at 7:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Briands View Post

There seem to be some people out there that have "alternative" versions of the Nvidia drivers. Would it be possible to "simply" substitute the non-linear ramp into the existing driver?

i wouldnt think so.

its funny because im thinking now that i dont even need to write drivers...
you can do it all with 2 graphics cards and a high end dual core system.

if i dont get too drunk this weekend i could try and put together something nice to demonstrate.
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 34
10/25/06 at 7:34am
Isn't there some people here (at AVS) who started this same thing as a project some time back? I read that they even tried to hire some software programmers on the internet to build them custom drivers and software for blending. That was a LONG thread.

Just thinking....maybe the originator of this thread can hook up those folks.


Unless, of course that project is dead.
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 34
10/25/06 at 7:47am
Good luck. Anyway to make it to where more than two projectors can be blended? Like 4. I believe VLC can do this.
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 34
10/25/06 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

Isn't there some people here (at AVS) who started this same thing as a project some time back? I read that they even tried to hire some software programmers on the internet to build them custom drivers and software for blending. That was a LONG thread.

Just thinking....maybe the originator of this thread can hook up those folks.


Unless, of course that project is dead.

That project is resting 6 feet under. I still have the Details I posted on Rent-A-coder if you want them?
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 34
10/25/06 at 2:55pm
Are we re inventing the wheel ???

HOWEVER......

A bit of software designed to produce the "variable overlap" and "edge blending" with easy to use perameter settings , Now THAT would be cool......
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 34
10/25/06 at 5:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson View Post

Good luck. Anyway to make it to where more than two projectors can be blended? Like 4. I believe VLC can do this.

I thought VLC was a Video Player? How will it handle HD-DVD?
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 34
10/25/06 at 8:29pm
VLC plays most types of files, we have been using it to playback HiDef .TS files, but it can't playback protected HD-DVD content currently.
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 34
10/25/06 at 10:07pm
Hi Luke,

I'm glad to hear that you're going through with this concept. If I could make a suggestion: do try and make the drivers work cleanly with VMR9, and specifically the "renderless exclusive" mode. It's tough, because this mode seems to like to take control of the video hardware. That said, to my eye, it gives the smoothest playback.

Hi again Andy,

When I tried the nVidia the first time, I hammered out my color balance as well as my Spyder2Pro would allow. It was as close as I could get my Marquee 8000s to tracking D65, and visually indistiguishable to my eye.

Color balance aside, though, I suppose the gamma is the key to a transparent blend. I can't give a subjective assesment of the suitability of my projectors' gamma curve, but I know that the Marquee VIM circuitry was modified after the 8000 to alter gamma tracking. I would think that the designers at nVidia would have to use a particular gamma exponent as a given in designing the blend algorithms. I tried 2.2 and 2.5, and both showed the same band in the middle of the screen.

That said, it's only visible in a very small percentage of video material, but enough so and visibly enough that it really doesn't qualify, uncorrected, as a reference-type solution.

I don't mean to go off-topic, but if you get a chance, when you've set up your beast of a computer, do try the "overlay" avisynth functionality built into ffdshow. It lets you overlay a 32-bit RGB bitmap onto the pre-blend video frames, and has allowed me to just sit back and enjoy two blended CRTs, using the nVidia software.

Sorry for the intrusion, Luke, and I wish you the best in your efforts.
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 34
10/26/06 at 2:12am
Oh God not Renderless Exclusive...

It takes over the whole PC, you can't do anything else. And ZoomPlayer doesn't have an interface for it.

Theatertek does, but it won't use the Dscaler 1080i version with Inverse Telecine for 1080i film material. Therefore Theatertek is useless.

Something that works for normal VRM9 would be perfect.
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 34
10/26/06 at 6:17am
I second that motion, renderless exclusive is the weapon of last resort...
Reply
Reply
post #25 of 34
10/26/06 at 9:47am
Hi All,

I mentioned the renderless exlusive mode because it takes over the whole PC; I uninformedly thought that a driver that would work with this mode would be more likely to work with the rest. Renderless exlusive doesn't work with the nVKeystone that effects the nVidia blend, so I figured it Luke was going to go to the trouble, it might be a worthwhile goal for the project.

Mark, the newer versions of ZoomPlayer do have a Renderless Exclusive mode, and it works quite nicely with the DScaler 5008 IVTC decoder (and ffdshow, etc.). I agree, though, after seeing MPEG-2 decoded with DScaler on the "reference" setting, everything else pales in comparison. To my eye, it is a cut above the rest, and at least on par with the Broadcom chip in the newer generation optical-format players. Further, the newest builds of ffdshow allow the use of hardware deinterlacing for video and film, so that Dscaler sharpness can be used with the fairly robust hardware deinterlacing on the newer video cards. It's all pretty amazing, especially when you throw in all of those Avisynth processing functions.

If I remember, you're the moderator over at the Reclock forums, right? Is that how you're getting any VMR9 renderer to play smoothly? I get very occasional tearing in anything other than VMR9 Renderless Exclusive - maybe it's time to give Reclock a shot.

Oh, and anyone who has to weigh his "hobby" time against "getting drunk" time sounds like a man with his priorities straight. Sorry for taking your thread off topic, Luke. I'll send you down a case of your beer of choice when you get this done. Thanks for the efforts.
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 34
10/26/06 at 1:28pm
HI,

New PC being built as we speak.............

About to order the HD SDi capture card, thats the last bit.........

Then its spend a weekend letting Windows update its updates, and then on to try VLC for my first real look at VLC........

Any thng that does get built, give me a shout, I will try and test it......

Andy.
Reply
Reply
post #27 of 34
10/26/06 at 3:47pm
That quad SLi should really help DVD playback

Are you getting an analogue HD input card as well?
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 34
10/26/06 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dokworm View Post

That quad SLi should really help DVD playback





Quote:


Are you getting an analogue HD input card as well?

Nope, do I need one ???
Reply
Reply
post #29 of 34
10/26/06 at 7:08pm
I configured a HTPC with SLi 7800GT's. (Overkill by a clueless IT guy).

Only one output works in SLI mode. 4 outputs...one works.

Disabling SLi allows you to run 3 monitors.


I removed the 2nd 7800GT and told the owner to stick it in another PC.
Reply
Reply
post #30 of 34
10/26/06 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slartibartfasst View Post

Hi All,

I mentioned the renderless exlusive mode because it takes over the whole PC; I uninformedly thought that a driver that would work with this mode would be more likely to work with the rest. Renderless exlusive doesn't work with the nVKeystone that effects the nVidia blend, so I figured it Luke was going to go to the trouble, it might be a worthwhile goal for the project.

Mark, the newer versions of ZoomPlayer do have a Renderless Exclusive mode, and it works quite nicely with the DScaler 5008 IVTC decoder (and ffdshow, etc.). I agree, though, after seeing MPEG-2 decoded with DScaler on the "reference" setting, everything else pales in comparison. To my eye, it is a cut above the rest, and at least on par with the Broadcom chip in the newer generation optical-format players. Further, the newest builds of ffdshow allow the use of hardware deinterlacing for video and film, so that Dscaler sharpness can be used with the fairly robust hardware deinterlacing on the newer video cards. It's all pretty amazing, especially when you throw in all of those Avisynth processing functions.

If I remember, you're the moderator over at the Reclock forums, right? Is that how you're getting any VMR9 renderer to play smoothly? I get very occasional tearing in anything other than VMR9 Renderless Exclusive - maybe it's time to give Reclock a shot.

Oh, and anyone who has to weigh his "hobby" time against "getting drunk" time sounds like a man with his priorities straight. Sorry for taking your thread off topic, Luke. I'll send you down a case of your beer of choice when you get this done. Thanks for the efforts.


Yep, I occasionally delete the porn links added to the reclock forum by robots...grr.

And yep, I use Reclock with VRM9 windowless and get smooth tear free playback of all material on a 9500 Pro.

I tested a few Nvidia cards and they all tear - they need Exclusive Renderless. I think the problem is the nvidia drivers don't respect the V-sync setting unless in exclusive mode.

I sat there and played with 2 PCs - mine with normal VRM9 and 9500 pro, the other with a 5950 Ultra and Exclusive, and with reclock there was no smoothness difference for HD material.


Zoomplayer 4.51 will play in exclusive, but is has no interface - you can't control it with the mouse at all. No right click, no seek bar, no buttons.

So I stuck with normal VMr9 as it's more friendly.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: CRT Projectors

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › CRT Projectors › Driver Level Blender Project