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Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral... - Page 6

post #151 of 602
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by neekos View Post

I got the flat as I could not see getting a whole gallon when all I needed was a quart. For some reason, SW only sells the 7071 in a gallons for the matte finish.

Yeah I am not sure why they do that.

Yours will have a slightly less sheen to it, but seeing this is between a flat and eggshell finish I wouldn't think it would be an issue, it's the color that is the big thing.

Do me a favor, when you start, take a look at the paint and let me know if it looks like regular paint that you have worked with on other projects, or see if it has something in the paint, like mica flecks...
post #152 of 602
it's funny you say that, I do see some specs in it but once it is applied it disappears.
post #153 of 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by neekos View Post

it's funny you say that, I do see some specs in it but once it is applied it disappears.

I think it's oregano!

Patrick
post #154 of 602
that would explain the greenish tint to the color
post #155 of 602
I too noted the green push. It's a trait most every Grey shows when a digital image is taken, but seldom is noticable when viewing the image in person. wbassett is getting much better at taking screenies, so I'm sure the frustration of seeing excellent looking colors get skewered by the camera is settling in a bit.

The ability for a Digi-cam to correctly capture accurate color is 90% dependent on the intensity of the various wavelengths of light it receives. If along with everything else, a boosted amount of a particular wavelength of light is present, then although the "Eye' might not notice such, the camera's far more sensitive CCD can easily decern it and will unfortunately show it as being predominant instead of evenly blended. If a screen's reflective output is balanced in every way, then the camera will not/should not deliver in other factors into the equation.

I use that criteria as a judge for all the screens I make, and use my camera's "eye" as the determining factor by which I measure accurate color balance. But I seem to be lucky in that my camera is already set up to do so. Anybody else's results may be different.

I'm not looking forward to retiring the old girl.
post #156 of 602
Thread Starter 
He wasn't talking about a green push because there is no green push with the color. A true neutral gray tends to 'look' greenish' to people because since we were kids we all have been conditioned to see gray as something different than what it really is. When a nice looking house paint gray is compared to a real gray, the real gray looks slightly green.

I have also notice what was said about different cameras is very true, they do add/lean to certain color hues that are completely missing in the original image. Switching from a florescent white balance setting to incandescent can make a dark image go from green to blue, and neither had anything to do with the screen. (In low light with the projector off, one setting makes my walls look orange, another bluish, and florescent light setting green... and that has nothing to do with the screen or the camera picking up something our eye isn't)

What I am interested in are the flecks in the paint. I originally thought it was part of the matte base, and I remember Prof looking up the base and saying there is something in it. If it is present in the flat base, then SW either has this in all their base paint, or it is something added with the Gray Screen mix. I would tend to think it's part of their base though.
post #157 of 602
wbassett,

I'm seeing a green push/tinge in a few of those screen shots. Are you seeing this too? And does it look this way in person? If so, could this be because of the greenish hue of the "gray screen"? "Gray screen" is what you used for these screen shots, right?

Thanks
post #158 of 602
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

wbassett,

I'm seeing a green push/tinge in a few of those screen shots. Are you seeing this too? And does it look this way in person? If so, could this be because of the greenish hue of the "gray screen"? "Gray screen" is what you used for these screen shots, right?

Thanks

Again, the camera is doing that. Gray screen is very neutral in color, what people may perceive as a 'green' hue with the paint color is what gray actually looks like. I am only pointing this out so people don't read a post and not the entire thread and think there is a radical color shift.

As far as a simple off the shelf gray, this is by far the best I have seen/used and is the most neutral of anything I have seen presented so far. The only problem I have seen in person with the screen is what I noted in an earlier post about a couple of scenes in Charlies Angel's Full Throttle and Sin City, and that was with red and not green. I will be testing out more DVDs to see if this is an actual problem or if it is the DVD and the way the movies were filmed.
post #159 of 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

Again, the camera is doing that. Gray screen is very neutral in color, what people may perceive as a 'green' hue is what gray actually looks like. I am only pointing this out so people don't read a post and not the entire thread and think there is a radical color shift.

As far as a simple off the shelf gray, this is by far the best I have seen/used and is the most neutral of anything I have seen presented so far. The only problem I have seen in person with the screen is what I noted in an earlier post about a couple of scenes in Charlies Angel's Full Throttle and Sin City, and that was with red and not green. I will be testing out more DVDs to see if this is an actual problem or if it is the DVD and the way the movies were filmed.

Yes, I basically was asking for clarification and confirmation about "gray screen" and your screen shots. That you have confirmed "gray screen" is the best neutral gray you have seen to date is what I was after. I have not been keeping up on the latest neutral gray screens. Thanks for bringing me up to date on this one.
post #160 of 602
Thread Starter 
No problem and I hope I didn't come off with a negative tone, I didn't mean it that way at all. I'm a little disgusted with my camera though lol.

I bought my kids each a 5mega pixel camera for Christmas, and naturally I had to 'make sure they worked' . They have a lot of nice options and features, including selectable light metering. Lights on, they take great pictures, lights off they were absolutely horrible, especially for a 5MP camera... but hey what did I expect for a Black Friday $88 special? Well... what I was hoping is if they worked better than the S3100 I was going to go out and buy one for me!

Anyway, right now for my setup and tastes, I like this screen the best so far. I still have some testing to do with the colored laminates, and will be doing some poly tests with Gray Screen. We should have a couple of more reviews coming soon which I am looking forward to. Once is for True Value's Winter Mountain, which is also a Munsell N8 shade, and another Gray Screen but in the flat finish instead of the matte finish.
post #161 of 602
I went the safe route and selected Sherwin Williams Soothing White, an N9 color. I got it in the flat finish since I only wanted to buy a quart. It's quite a bit lighter than I thought it would be, but once I got the first coat on I noticed the light gray coloration when compared against the slightly cream white walls.

I've only got one coat on, but I watched Serenity HD-DVD last night and was very impressed with the neutrality and "windowpane" effect; I could not detect any roller lines or other imperfections, no hotspotting or visible texture. This paint is very easy to roll on and provides a very nice image! While I would like to drop down to N8 since this is slightly lighter than I would have liked, I'm going to give it a few weeks to settle in and see what I think. I had forgotten how nice whites look on a lighter screen!
post #162 of 602
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dja1ien View Post

I went the safe route and selected Sherwin Williams Soothing White, an N9 color. I got it in the flat finish since I only wanted to buy a quart. It's quite a bit lighter than I thought it would be, but once I got the first coat on I noticed the light gray coloration when compared against the slightly cream white walls.

I've only got one coat on, but I watched Serenity HD-DVD last night and was very impressed with the neutrality and "windowpane" effect; I could not detect any roller lines or other imperfections, no hotspotting or visible texture. This paint is very easy to roll on and provides a very nice image! While I would like to drop down to N8 since this is slightly lighter than I would have liked, I'm going to give it a few weeks to settle in and see what I think. I had forgotten how nice whites look on a lighter screen!

I am still amazed at the whites I am seeing, I was really surprised and this is what sold me on neutral colors.
post #163 of 602
me too..

I can't get over how white the SW "Gray Screen" appears
post #164 of 602
In addition to these neutral grays, I'm will be interested in wbassett's upcoming poly testing with "gray screen". However, my question is will such testing be appropriate for this "Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral..." thread, or will it warrant a separate thread? I suspect the latter.
post #165 of 602
well now I continue to wonder if I should grab some Gray Screen instead of Soothing White. It sounds like my HD70 might be able to pull it off after all, and Soothing White is definately a lot lighter than I thought it would be...
post #166 of 602
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

In addition to these neutral grays, I'm will be interested in wbassett's upcoming poly testing with "gray screen". However, my question is will such testing be appropriate for this "Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral..." thread, or will it warrant a separate thread? I suspect the latter.

Since it would be nothing more than a simple poly coating and not a mix with multiple components, I tend to feel it would still apply in here. If the thread gets too big what I will probably do is show/present only relevant data and tests in here that apply to making a simple neutral gray based screen.

I do have another thread just for top coatings and textures that will be get into them for laminate use as well as other methods like the grays, but that is still a ways off.
post #167 of 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

I too noted the green push. It's a trait most every Grey shows when a digital image is taken, but seldom is noticable when viewing the image in person. wbassett is getting much better at taking screenies, so I'm sure the frustration of seeing excellent looking colors get skewered by the camera is settling in a bit.

The ability for a Digi-cam to correctly capture accurate color is 90% dependent on the intensity of the various wavelengths of light it receives. If along with everything else, a boosted amount of a particular wavelength of light is present, then although the "Eye' might not notice such, the camera's far more sensitive CCD can easily decern it and will unfortunately show it as being predominant instead of evenly blended. If a screen's reflective output is balanced in every way, then the camera will not/should not deliver in other factors into the equation.

I use that criteria as a judge for all the screens I make, and use my camera's "eye" as the determining factor by which I measure accurate color balance. But I seem to be lucky in that my camera is already set up to do so. Anybody else's results may be different.

I'm not looking forward to retiring the old girl.

The process you describe seems to infer that your camera's sensors and software are reliable indicators of accurate color. I'll have to disagree.

In my opinion, unless the projector white point is calibrated and the camera is in turn calibrated to that white point, screen shots are useless in determining color balance of a screen. And even then, assessment could only be done on a calibrated monitor.

There are just too many variables involved to use a camera as a colorimeter.

Garry
post #168 of 602
I think any camera shots are basically a proof of work and concept and should be explained in detail by the photgrapher. In this case the story teller is the thread itself and this is the result.

The proof of concept is the basic off the shelf neutral grey relative to a shade of munsell scale and it's relative performance in relation with a basic projector.

The story goes,(I could be reading it wrong of course) that the result has been quite acceptable and probably better than expected for an off the shelf paint.

whooharrr!

As far as pushes go, I believe he is using a data projector. Well these tend to push for lumens than correctness don't they.
I calibrated my monitor the other day. The photos look ok to me, maybe I am defient in green(who knows what else!).
Maybe some here have been colorists for years and/or calibrators aswell and I'm speaking outa my ass.....and they see push, well...who knows maybe.
You still need a proper colorimeter to prove it, and then you would calibrate it and remove the push(if you can) then all is well.

The whites and blacks.
I have come to a conclusion, I may be wrong, please argue if you think I am, the conclusion is that grey screens have nothing to do with the colors or black and white or the shades of grey between, but totally for the removal or absorbtion of light bleed that is an artifact of the technolgy itself.
Grey screens have only been about since LCD projectors.

Better blacks or grey scale you peceive are only seen because we remove the noise(light bleed or ambient light). You can never make the projector perform better without increasing the contrast ratio or lumens output. Since adding a grey screen kills lumens by absorbtion, this leaves the contrast ratio above the reduced noise.

The neutral grey off the shelf paint is a winner, cost vrs result is high, just choose wisely matching your projector with the correct shade.
post #169 of 602
As an FYI to any other possible HD70 owners following this thread, I picked up some Sherwin Williams Gray Screen tonight (flat finish). It's a relatively dark shade, but the hd70 has no problem displaying a very nice image on it.

Blacks are of course enhanced, but white remains very white. I do not see any noticable loss in shadow detail, but I do notice that whites don't pop as much. Keep in mind, this is not necessarily a bad thing; I found with N9 Soothing White that bright scenes were overly bright, and changes from dark scenes to light scenes caused eye fatigue. Brightness is more natural at this level, leading to a more pleasant and filmlike viewing experience.

I will definately be sticking with this for the timebeing. Another big thanks to wbassett for finding this shade!
post #170 of 602
Thread Starter 
Welcome back Smokey

It is really more a camera issue than a screen issue and I have stated that repeatedly. Yes I am using a business projector, and any issues are with the projector and camera and not the screen in my opinion. The images look much better in person than in the pictures, and if it can make a business projector look good I know a dedicated HT projector will look even better. I just got done saying to someone else that screenies are a lot like paint color cards... it's a rough visual representation of the product. My camera seems to add a push but I don't think the images are that bad otherwise I never would have posted them. I really don't see any major green push in the pictures either, but as I said my camera is not representing the screen like I wish it would.

Soon we should have upwards of four other people reporting in on a variety of the neutral Munsell shades mainly N8 and N9. If the report the same findings then it can be stated as an unbiased set of results. I still maintain that neutral gray is going to be the best at reproducing colors across the board than a non neutral. It just makes sense and the data supports that theory.
post #171 of 602
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dja1ien View Post

As an FYI to any other possible HD70 owners following this thread, I picked up some Sherwin Williams Gray Screen tonight (flat finish). It's a relatively dark shade, but the hd70 has no problem displaying a very nice image on it.

Blacks are of course enhanced, but white remains very white. I do not see any noticable loss in shadow detail, but I do notice that whites don't pop as much. Keep in mind, this is not necessarily a bad thing; I found with N9 Soothing White that bright scenes were overly bright, and changes from dark scenes to light scenes caused eye fatigue. Brightness is more natural at this level, leading to a more pleasant and filmlike viewing experience.

I will definately be sticking with this for the timebeing. Another big thanks to wbassett for finding this shade!

How long ago did you paint the screen? I noticed a big difference from after first painting and a couple of days later...

Do you have Sin City or Charlies Angels Full Throttle? If so throw those in and let me know how the Enzo looks as well as Dwight's convertible...
post #172 of 602
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post

The whites and blacks.
I have come to a conclusion, I may be wrong, please argue if you think I am, the conclusion is that grey screens have nothing to do with the colors or black and white or the shades of grey between, but totally for the removal or absorbtion of light bleed that is an artifact of the technolgy itself.
Grey screens have only been about since LCD projectors.

Better blacks or grey scale you peceive are only seen because we remove the noise(light bleed or ambient light). You can never make the projector perform better without increasing the contrast ratio or lumens output. Since adding a grey screen kills lumens by absorbtion, this leaves the contrast ratio above the reduced noise.

The neutral grey off the shelf paint is a winner, cost vrs result is high, just choose wisely matching your projector with the correct shade.

Smokey I think the key statement is a neutral gray has nothing to do with the colors. Grays that look 'cute or pretty' aren't really gray and as such they have extra colors added. These extra colors are what causes the projected color image to shift. A true neutral should have no push or skew in any direction so it should be able to reproduce colors very accurately.

My whites are unbelievably white for a darker shade of gray and I think I could go even darker without losing my whites, but I would probably lose shadow detail. There are some projectors that could go to an N7 with no problem at all, and maybe even an N6 before they start seeing any major hit in performance. That's where the step grays are needed, N6 might be too much, N6.5 could be fine... same as for me N7 would probably be too much, but I bet I could handle something between an N8 and N7.
post #173 of 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by dja1ien View Post

As an FYI to any other possible HD70 owners following this thread, I picked up some Sherwin Williams Gray Screen tonight (flat finish). It's a relatively dark shade, but the hd70 has no problem displaying a very nice image on it.

Blacks are of course enhanced, but white remains very white. I do not see any noticable loss in shadow detail, but I do notice that whites don't pop as much. Keep in mind, this is not necessarily a bad thing; I found with N9 Soothing White that bright scenes were overly bright, and changes from dark scenes to light scenes caused eye fatigue. Brightness is more natural at this level, leading to a more pleasant and filmlike viewing experience.

I will definately be sticking with this for the timebeing. Another big thanks to wbassett for finding this shade!

A very good summation of exactly what a correct neutral gray should do.

Garry
post #174 of 602
When anyone here has compared shade of gray "X" to shade of gray "Y", have you calibrated your projector to each of these shades? The reason I ask is it seems to me that if not calibrating to each shade, then shade "X" or "Y" may look better than the other in part for not having calibrated.

Reason: any given projector should be able to be calibrated to perform well within a limited range of grays (and/or white with some projectors and lighting conditions). For example, any given projector which looks nice from one's perspective with N8 also should be able to look nice to that person with either N9 or N7 (or both) depending on factors like the presence / absence of ambient light, the projector's abilities, the projector's decreasing lumen output as the lamp ages, the use or non-use of a neutral density filter, and the periodic calibration of one's projector.

And so I'd say the best shade of gray (or a white) that one should choose is the one that can be expected to work best given one's expected lighting conditions and their projector's ability to be calibrated to it (and/or one's expected use of a neutral density filter to compensate for the loss of brightness as the projector's lamp ages).

Thus, it makes less sense to me for one to compare shades of gray (and/or a white for that matter) and choose one over the other without having calibrated and considered the decrease in the lamp's brightness over its expected length of usage, and/or without having taking into consideration one's possible use of a neutral density filter. I keep mentioning the optional use of a NDF since it's not uncommon for the brightness of a lamp to decrease by around 50% during the length of its useage. And, a NDF along with calibraton are argueably better ways of dealing with the decrease in a lamp's brightness than changing one's screen later on after after finding its picture is now too dark for optimal viewing.
post #175 of 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post

The whites and blacks.
I have come to a conclusion, I may be wrong, please argue if you think I am, the conclusion is that grey screens have nothing to do with the colors or black and white or the shades of grey between, but totally for the removal or absorbtion of light bleed that is an artifact of the technolgy itself.
Grey screens have only been about since LCD projectors.

Better blacks or grey scale you peceive are only seen because we remove the noise(light bleed or ambient light). You can never make the projector perform better without increasing the contrast ratio or lumens output. Since adding a grey screen kills lumens by absorbtion, this leaves the contrast ratio above the reduced noise.

just choose wisely matching your projector with the correct shade.

Smokey Joe

Very eloquently stated, and a point I have been trying to make over the last 9 months.

It's the ability of the gray to first not alter colors all the way to white. And absorb some percentage of the light evenly along with making a tiny color correction for the deficiency in the white base to accurately reflect all colors evenly. (Notice I lay the blame more on the white and not the inefficient lampblack.)

It requires some losses in efficiency to pull this off but the way I have often explained it, as a ratio between good light and bad light and the idea being to overpower the screen with good light kill a percent of that good light and at the same time the same percentage of the bad light is going with it. It's a game of numbers in part and the experiment I did with the black screen (darkest of neutral grays seemed to prove that out.)

This thread IMO is of invaluable importance because it did something I have been trying to do in a similar thread I started to no avail. I was of the belief we would tweak our way to a neutral (mix) sorry wbassett and at that point we could divide that into grades.

If there is one short fall to the approach being used here it's that in searching and testing all these different off the shelf grays for close neutrals. They are coming in from all different brands of paints from different companies and in such the white base used in the mixing IMO will cloud the data.
post #176 of 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

the projector's decreasing lumen output as the lamp ages, the use or non-use of a neutral density filter, and the periodic calibration of one's projector.

And so I'd say the best shade of gray (or a white) that one should choose is the one that can be expected to work best given one's expected lighting conditions and their projector's ability to be calibrated to it (and/or one's expected use of a neutral density filter to compensate for the loss of brightness as the projector's lamp ages).

Thus, it makes less sense to me for one to compare shades of gray (and/or a white for that matter) and choose one over the other without having calibrated and considered the decrease in the lamp's brightness over its expected length of usage, and/or without having taking into consideration one's possible use of a neutral density filter. I keep mentioning the optional use of a NDF since it's not uncommon for the brightness of a lamp to decrease by around 50% during the length of its useage. And, a NDF along with calibraton are argueably better ways of dealing with the decrease in a lamp's brightness than changing one's screen later on after after finding its picture is now too dark for optimal viewing.

1 Time

Your above post should be noted by all. It's easy to forget that this bulb in our new projector is going to dim. And it's easy when seeing the benefits of a neutral gray screen to want to maximize your efforts to your new projector.

I studied this quite a bit before I settled in on the shade of gray I wanted to use and I also studied if I wanted or rather needed to go into ND filters to reach a acceptable end of life lumen rating. I haven't been a big proponent of ND filters but there may be cases where they would be the right way to go. In my case I looked at the starting lumens of my projector in both eco mode and full and then the amount of brightness control and boost thru the calibration settings and then what my working range for my eyes as to acceptable brightness and started out with a slightly bright image passing thru a long curve of near perfect and then ending on the down slope. And all the way thru this process being able to tweak as needed the brightness. In my case the ND hasn't been needed but I would advise everyone to at least think along these lines in the beginning.

Good point you make.
post #177 of 602
Hi Wbassett

I've been following this thread, along with your 'Laminate Screen Material and Testing' thread, and I'm wondering which of the screens you prefer - the Designer White laminate or the SW Gray Screen paint?

thanks
post #178 of 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstruth View Post

Hi Wbassett

I've been following this thread, along with your 'Laminate Screen Material and Testing' thread, and I'm wondering which of the screens you prefer - the Designer White laminate or the SW Gray Screen paint?

thanks

I could guess with all the ambient light I've seen in his shots.....

mech
post #179 of 602
Thread Starter 
I like them both, but mech is right tstruth, not only because of all the light in my room though. Granted I never would have been able to watch a thing with DW mid afternoon, but I don't really use the projector until evenings.

Designer White is a very nice screen, bright and vibrant, but my room is all white (right now at least). When I fired the projector up at night the screen was so bright (it didn't hotspot though) it literally created it's own light in the room from reflecting off all the white. I love the screen, but I like watching movies in a dark atmosphere. DW lit the room up. To me this was light I couldn't shut off to make the room darker and like I said I personally like a dark room. Now after I repaint my room it may not have that effect.

I put Gray Screen up solely as a test screen, but I must say I really like it a lot. I am going to try a full sheet of Fashion Grey and Dove Grey. I am interested in seeing how FG is with whites after seeing how well Gray Screen is. I also found something that may fix the potential specularity problem with Dove Grey but those are off topic for in here.
post #180 of 602
"Site White" appears to be a neutral light gray. It can be seen HERE, #7070 near the bottom of the page and right above "gray screen" #7071. I first found it at the Sherwin Williams site. Could it be this is a close relative of "gray screen" and a good option for a lighter neutral gray than "gray screen"?
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