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Sonosub + RL-p15 - Design confirmation - Page 4

post #91 of 401
11/17/06 at 5:09pm
There must be a big tolerance for what stores can classify as MDF, as that looks like particle board Rune
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post #92 of 401
11/17/06 at 5:16pm
Quote:


as that looks like particle board Rune

That caught my eye also Steve. His sono is darn nice though! stout
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post #93 of 401
11/17/06 at 5:52pm
Yo RUne.....what kinda wood is that? looks awefully close to particle board
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post #94 of 401
11/18/06 at 12:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

Yo RUne.....what kinda wood is that? looks awefully close to particle board

That is 100% correct. Is particle board a bad idea for this paricular use?

I didn't think it would matter as long as I spackled/sanded it to get it smooth at the end. I didn't think this particular piece needed to as be strong or "dead" as MDF. I just happened to have some lying around.

Just to be perfectly clear this is NOT the material that I use for the endcaps. For the endcaps I'll use 22mm MDF.
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post #95 of 401
11/18/06 at 12:49am
Great pics guys!!!! Thanks for sharing.

Rune, I doubt it matters that its particle board for port flares. I can't see why is would matter.
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post #96 of 401
11/18/06 at 1:04am
Quote:


Rune, I doubt it matters that its particle board for port flares. I can't see why is would matter.

No, if it's just for the flares it wont matter at all. Don't let anybody tell you that it will. That was a close one though. You do want your caps as strong and as dead as possible, but then you know that.
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post #97 of 401
11/18/06 at 6:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

No, if it's just for the flares it wont matter at all. Don't let anybody tell you that it will. That was a close one though. You do want your caps as strong and as dead as possible, but then you know that.

Oh my God - did you guys think I was going to use 13mm particle board for the endcaps? No wonder you were concerned
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post #98 of 401
11/18/06 at 7:57am
Quote:


Oh my God - did you guys think I was going to use 13mm particle board for the endcaps? No wonder you were concerned

Not after your prior post. I think br C and Sherv were kind of worried because that's how they built their first subs. ..don't tell them I told you though. That Sherv can be a real hothead and I don't need the lecture from Steve C.
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post #99 of 401
11/18/06 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuneW View Post

Oh my God - did you guys think I was going to use 13mm particle board for the endcaps? No wonder you were concerned

well, after you clarified it, I was ok....you definitely need the end caps to be as strong as possible. Anyways, all is clear now

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Not after your prior post. I think br C and Sherv were kind of worried because that's how they built their first subs. ..don't tell them I told you though. That Sherv can be a real hothead ........

LOL....are you sure you aint confusing me with your first sub? hehehehe ....dont forget before this DIY home stuff, I've been running the car audio/AISCA circles for years!

nah man, i'm pretty level headed, but two things just get to me...kinda like my red buttons: hard headed/closed minded individuals, and arrogant/pompous individuals....just doesn't fly with me. Other than that, I'm not a real hot head...heheheheheheh
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post #100 of 401
11/18/06 at 11:10am
Thread Starter 
I'll probably go for an EP2500, but a PA-guy recommended the Phonic Max2500 over the EP2500 (better build quality etc.). The price is about the same (or a little less, actually).

I've never heard about the Max 2500, but browsing through the manual I came upon this passage:

"Subsonic: Frequencies below 10 Hz contain high level of energy that can be harmful or stressful for many speakers. Since normal human listening range (is) from 20Hz to 20kHz, this unit comes with a feature that helps filter out any frequency that is below 10 Hz to prevent speakers from harm".

In addition the user can set a Hight Pass filter to PASS, 30Hz or 50Hz.

I'm not entirely sure what this 10Hz thing is all about. From what it says, it doesn't look like they write about a "natural roll off" for a typical amplifier, but more like some kind of active measure? 10 Hz may be a few Hz to low as a HP filter for my sub, but since the use of HP filters in LLT designs is debated anyhow, maybe this 10 Hz HP is exactly what I'm looking for?

I'm not sure if the EP2500 has something similar?
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post #101 of 401
11/18/06 at 11:51am
If you're PA guy is right about the quality of that amp, then go for it. It looks good to me, but I've never heard anything about it.
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post #102 of 401
11/18/06 at 11:56am
Quote:


I'm not entirely sure what this 10Hz thing is all about. From what it says, it doesn't look like they write about a "natural roll off" for a typical amplifier, but more like some kind of active measure? 10 Hz may be a few Hz to low as a HP filter for my sub, but since the use of HP filters in LLT designs is debated anyhow, maybe this 10 Hz HP is exactly what I'm looking for?

I dunno? From what I here the 10 and 15 hz hing point doesn't make that much difference. I think that has to be specific to the sub in question though?? Anyway it is interesting and this is a new amp that I have never heard of..if anything it will help keep BEHRINGER on their toes price wise no?
Quote:


LOL....are you sure you aint confusing me with your first sub? hehehehe ....dont forget before this DIY home stuff, I've been running the car audio/AISCA circles for years!

OOPS! I forgot about that, I bow down to you then. Seriously though...I couldn't help pulling your chain, I'm getting kind of giddy thinking of all the subs I have slotted with whatever 18" driver I go with next. One thing we both know is RuneW is going to have quite a rig on his hands. I have had dual sono's in the same room, but only one hooked up. I know they/dual would come in a couple dB better than my 21 cu ft dual driver rig with better SQ to boot.

Your most likely planning on parting your subs 4-5' RuneW? If so, that should still put you very close to the dual driver rig that I built. Headroom will not be a issue even though it's imo that a single 15" option will provide much more than what many realise.
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post #103 of 401
11/18/06 at 12:04pm
You gotta consider that the 10hz filter probably isn't a brickwall, it's just centered at 10hz. This means that the FR could be dropping before 10hz, and this could take away some in room extension - though a 15hz tuning might be high enough that it won't. It's also gonna degrade transient response - might not be audible, but it's defeating a fair chunk of the purpose of building a large and low tuned sub to begin with. I'd say take an in room FR measurement with it on and off, and decide from there.
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post #104 of 401
11/18/06 at 2:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

You gotta consider that the 10hz filter probably isn't a brickwall, it's just centered at 10hz. This means that the FR could be dropping before 10hz, and this could take away some in room extension - though a 15hz tuning might be high enough that it won't. It's also gonna degrade transient response - might not be audible, but it's defeating a fair chunk of the purpose of building a large and low tuned sub to begin with. I'd say take an in room FR measurement with it on and off, and decide from there.

I don't think you can't turn it off... Maybe I'll stick to the EP2500. It's no big deal.
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post #105 of 401
11/18/06 at 2:11pm
Typical pro sound specs

It says that the low cut (HP) filter is at 10Hz. Assuming a 2nd order filter, it would be down 3dB at 10Hz and down 15dB at 5Hz.

But, the FR specs say that the 3dB down points are at 5Hz and 50KHz and the 20-20K specs are listed as (+/-) 1dB

The 10Hz HP is not user-defeatable, per the block diagram on page #15, so something isn't right.

Also, as usual, the power ratings are at 1KHz, so expect considerably less output in the subwoofer range. I would bet that this amp is a rebadged EP2500, as the specs are nearly identical.

This would probably mean that the EP2500 has the same 10Hz HP filter in place, making the specs pure BS (they simply get the FR BEFORE the 10Hz HP).

I personally wouldn't use these amps (or the Crown XLS series, Samson, Nady, etc.) if you gave me one free. The QSC RMX series is the lowest quality I would use, and actually, the QSC PLX-04 series is a great amp for the money.

Both the QSC's RMX and PLX series have a 2nd order 5Hz HP (down 3dB at 5Hz).

Rune...Nice project. Looking forward to more pics and some subjectives

Bosso
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post #106 of 401
11/18/06 at 2:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Typical pro sound specs

It says that the low cut (HP) filter is at 10Hz. Assuming a 2nd order filter, it would be down 3dB at 10Hz and down 15dB at 5Hz.

But, the FR specs say that the 3dB down points are at 5Hz and 50KHz and the 20-20K specs are listed as (+/-) 1dB

The 10Hz HP is not user-defeatable, per the block diagram on page #15, so something isn't right.

Also, as usual, the power ratings are at 1KHz, so expect considerably less output in the subwoofer range. I would bet that this amp is a rebadged EP2500, as the specs are nearly identical.

This would probably mean that the EP2500 has the same 10Hz HP filter in place, making the specs pure BS (they simply get the FR BEFORE the 10Hz HP).

I personally wouldn't use these amps (or the Crown XLS series, Samson, Nady, etc.) if you gave me one free. The QSC RMX series is the lowest quality I would use, and actually, the QSC PLX-04 series is a great amp for the money.

Both the QSC's RMX and PLX series have a 2nd order 5Hz HP (down 3dB at 5Hz).

Rune...Nice project. Looking forward to more pics and some subjectives

Bosso

Thanks for the nice words and information, Bosso!

The problem, of course, is money... The QSC's looks nice (I really don't know anything about PA amps...), but they cost 2-3 times as much as the EP2500, and I really have to draw the line somewhere God knows I have enough other things to use up my money on (like the rest of my home theater).
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post #107 of 401
11/18/06 at 3:12pm
Thread Starter 
Todays work...

I flipped over the DIY flares to round the other side. The flare is fastened on a piece of port pipe which in turn is recessed in a circular groove in the board below. This means that it is relatively easy to keep the router still while rotating the flare. Here the inner edge is rounded:


And here's the result after one round of filler (?) and (coarse) sanding. I'll probably do another round. Don't know how critical it is, however. I think maybe I'll paint them later:


And I finally got my act together and cut the other port pipe. Those pipes are made of 5mm PVC and it's %/¤&%¤ hard keeping them still while sawing...:
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post #108 of 401
11/18/06 at 3:59pm
Thread Starter 
BTW, I've started the break-in of the drivers:



I was considering using the state of the art pre-war Bulgarian break-in device under the table, but went for the old DiscMan-with-pre-LPF'ed-break-in-CD routine instead:

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post #109 of 401
11/18/06 at 4:25pm
very nice Rune.....keep it coming!

ps- I hope all buckeyes die in a Fire!
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post #110 of 401
11/18/06 at 4:34pm
What content is on a woofer 'breaking-in' cd?

Is it just like pink noise? Brown noise? Sweeps?
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post #111 of 401
11/18/06 at 10:15pm
Bosso, I believe the Behringer EP2500 is actually a rebadged QSC RMX. The cycle never ends.
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post #112 of 401
11/19/06 at 3:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

very nice Rune.....keep it coming!

ps- I hope all buckeyes die in a Fire!

Thanks!

Didn't understand the one about "buckeyes" though... what does it mean?
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post #113 of 401
11/19/06 at 3:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

What content is on a woofer 'breaking-in' cd?

Is it just like pink noise? Brown noise? Sweeps?

It's not a commercial breaking-in CD or something like that, just a self burned CD-R. As a warm up I'm just playing a 15Hz sine at moderate levels. This way I don't have to listen to it two floors above... After a few days, maybe I'll move on to something like this. But low pass filtered of course!

BTW: I'm absolutely not an break-in expert in any way. If you have any advice, please feel free!
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post #114 of 401
11/19/06 at 9:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

One thing we both know is RuneW is going to have quite a rig on his hands. I have had dual sono's in the same room, but only one hooked up. I know they/dual would come in a couple dB better than my 21 cu ft dual driver rig with better SQ to boot.

Your most likely planning on parting your subs 4-5' RuneW? If so, that should still put you very close to the dual driver rig that I built. Headroom will not be a issue even though it's imo that a single 15" option will provide much more than what many realise.

"parting your subs 4-5' "? You mean to separate the twins? What kind of parent would ever do that?

Anyway, I know that my two subs (in my 4.5 x 6 meter home theater) will be overkill DeLuxe, but they have a second purpose. Each year we have a "guy evening". I don't know what you call it, but you know, no females allowed. We rent this old "public house" out on the countryside and fill it with whatever we have that makes most noise and play 2-3 movies with some pizza in between. This has become a nice tradition and next year it's a ten year anniversary. Here's what we do:

1. Use 7-8 hours to rig the system (8 speakers, subs, cables, PJ whatever)
2. Watch 2-3 movies
3. Use 2 hours to dismantle the system

If this isn't crazy I don't know... But we love it! Let's us play around with different solutions very often. The thing is, we try to get it louder and better each year and it getting hard to do that...

I won't bore you with more details, but my sono's mission this next march is to fill a large room (about 475 cubic metres (find your calculators...)) with kidney crushing bass, so they will have challenge in front of them I happen to be the driving force behind this event, so I just had to take steps to ensure proper bass for the 10 year anniversary... hence the sonos.

But good/loud bass at home won't hurt (or will it?) either
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post #115 of 401
11/19/06 at 9:44am
hehehe...yeah Rune, we have that here too; it's called being single!
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post #116 of 401
11/19/06 at 10:35am
Quote:


As a warm up I'm just playing a 15Hz sine at moderate levels. This way I don't have to listen to it two floors above... After a few days, maybe I'll move on to something like this. But low pass filtered of course!

You're breaking it in by playing a continuous 15hz sine wave with the driver in free air?
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post #117 of 401
11/19/06 at 11:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

hehehe...yeah Rune, we have that here too; it's called being single!

Yup. I get to be single once a year...
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post #118 of 401
11/19/06 at 11:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

You're breaking it in by playing a continuous 15hz sine wave with the driver in free air?

Maybe not breaking it in as much as warming it up (and confirming that they work at all). I was hoping that by loosening them up in this way I could save some time when the real break in time comes (within an enclosure for sure).

But as I've said before - I'm absolutely not break in expert, so if you think I'm doing something harmful or is wasting my time by this "break in light", please do say so!
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post #119 of 401
11/19/06 at 11:40am
As long as you're not bottoming them out or clipping the amp, you'll be fine. Its not as if you're using a high power amp with them anyway.
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post #120 of 401
11/19/06 at 2:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

As long as you're not bottoming them out or clipping the amp, you'll be fine. Its not you're using a high power amp with them anyway.

No. I'm VERY careful. The drivers are moving less than 8mm (+/- 4 mm). As I said, I'm just loosening them up a little. I won't be "mean" to them before they're safe in their new homes...
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