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Pioneer Blu-ray Player Demo Explained - Page 3  

post #61 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma
Chris,

(I'm delurking because you asked a question that gets to the heart of a big issue for me.)

You asked "Why is it wrong for BD to use additonal layers of Copy Protection to protect their content when Microsoft does the same thing?"

This is one issue that gets under my skin. Software/content providers assume I am guilty, and ask that I prove myself innocent. From installing WinXP to trying to play a Region 2 DVD in a Region 1 player, the assumption is that I might be doing something that "they" want to control (i.e. ensure they make the most money possible from).

I don't like the way Microsoft handles copy protection/DRM. One of the big reasons they get away with it it because they have such a strangle-hold on the market that there is almost no competition - and when a competitor does rise up, they are quick to squash them (even the DoJ and EU rulings haven't really stopped the behaviour). Look at how MS is handling the security and virus protection issue with Vista.

I agree that most of the time this issue does not affect the typical consumer. But sometimes it does - and that is the part that really bugs me: why can't I purchase a DVD copy of some obscure British show and play it on my DV-563 just because it is "region 2"? There is no "Region 1" version available to buy. Yes, there are region-free (or easily hackable) DVD players out there - but it's all about control, not even legality, here.

And when my needs go beyond that of the "typical consumer", or if something goes wrong with the "Protection" mechanism, I really need to jump through hoops - I believe there is a feature available in the BD spec that allows the player to disable itself when it thinks an illegally copied disk is played. What if the disk was damaged, or poorly mastered, or the player's software just got it wrong? And that just plain annoys me.

So in summary, I get an uneasy feeling when I think about the various levels of protection that seem to be inherent in the BD technology. HD-DVD seems to have less, although I seem to recall recent murmurs of consideration of implementing region coding for that too, and who knows what aspects of DRM Miscrosoft will manage to get migrated into the product. I haven't taken the plunge into HD-DVD/Blu-Ray, and this issue is one of my points of hesitation.

Basically, because the big corporations don't trust me, I don't trust them.

Sorry for the rant, but I've got very few posts because I usually don't feel the need to jump in - I just observe and try to learn from the various people (like you) who contribute to these fora.

shinksma

No Problem Shinksma.....

Chris
post #62 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001
I don't mean this to come off as ungrateful that Chris has posted some enticing details, but I do intend to share my thoughts on the delays & how IMHO, Pioneer has missed the boat in keeping many early adopters like myself interested enough to wait for this player.

Over 25 yrs, I've owned more Pioneer gear than any other mfg. including 4 generations of laserdisc players from the 1st gas laser model to the last Elite model that was made, several generations of surround receivers, the last 2 generations of flagship Elite receivers, and the last generation of Elite RPTV. To call me an Elite fan would be an understatement! Many like me have been patiently waiting to see this player come out since the original press release.

The reasons for my final decision to look elsewhere were not just the ongoing delays but more the lack of specific & compelling details on the player that could justify waiting longer. There is no information on the web site, electronic brochures or other sources that sufficiently differentiated this player from the others other than the networked-media server features. The fact that the true audio capabilities of this player are still unknown at this stage of the game is a shame! Even Pioneer's leading Elite dealers in the Atlanta area, which include 4 MAJOR area HT dealers/ installers and the Magnolia stores do not know any details is interesting to me. All 4 of these dealers have been selling Elite gear for many yrs. and not one is really sure how the player compares audio-wise to the Sony. Maybe that's Pioneer's choice, but I think it probably has decreased some of your loyal client-base.

OK, I've aired my disappointments in this. My $1500 is a drop-in-the-bucket in the grand scheme of things, Chris. But, my loyalty to the "brand" included recently replacing a lightning-damaged 59TXi with one of the LAST 11 59Txi's left in the entire country! So take it from me, it would have been nice to see Pioneer more forthcoming with information on this player to go along with the delays. I know Pioneer lost at least one potential customer this past week.ss9001
Trust me, I feel your frustration.. If anyone is to blame about the lack of information being in the marketplace about this player it is me....

In order to provide a player that will support true 24p output we only have one choice in media chips (Sigma), not only is BD a new format, but the chip we are using is brand new as well....

I can only tell you that the last thing I wanted to do is put out false information. I figured less information is better than wrong information.. I just wanted to confirm exactly what the player will do before we release alot of information... As you are surely aware the majority of HD players that have been released have all had problems.. I want to try and avoid countless firmware upgrades. h

I can assure you the final details of the product will be out there over the next month....

I will post them on this forum and have them on our website as soon they are completed...

Sorry to frustrate you....

Chris
post #63 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
Hi Robert,

I own an HD-A1 and use it often.. It is a quite capable player, however I kind of disagree that all of those features were there out of the box.. It did require several firmware upgrades.... And I am not a big fan of that fact that the Toshiba player always has the Thompson Film Grain Reduction circuit on.. Not that I am complaining about the picture, I just don't want the player messing with the video in any way....

I think the Elite players capability to output 1080p24 and the Home Media Gallery feature do justify the price difference... As far as the HD-XA2, at Cedia I was told by Toshiba that it would not output 24hz... Mark Knox also confirmed this a couple of days ago in a trade journal called CE Daily...


Our BDP-HD1 does have a network controller... The ethernet jack can be used for both home media gallery and player control... We are not ready to comment on BD live at this point...

I am not saying that HD-DVD is bad, I just don't think it is the best choice in the long-run..... We will see......

Chris
Chris,

Per my recollection the Thompson Film Grain Reduction is only applicable to AVC HP encodes. I don't believe it's being used for VC-1 encodes. Perhaps Amir or Ben can shed more light on this.
post #64 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdigden
Chris,

Can you please confirm the Pioneer will natively support 1080p24 w/o any processing?

I can confirm this........

Chris
post #65 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayselle
I would also like to point out Son'y 94% profit drop in the last quarter. Does this not concern Pioneer?
Why in the world would one-time charges associated with a laptop battery recall at a rival CE company concern Pioneer?
post #66 of 174
Thread Starter 
That is a good question.. A question I brought up to my co-workers in Japan.. The main reason is that there is no standardized profile for the new audio formats to flow over 1394...

While it it possible for us to do it on our own, it most likely would not be compatible with other receivers/preamps with 1394.... (We gave a demonstration of DTS-HD using 1394 at Cedia)...

Chris




Quote:
Originally Posted by PRO-630HD
Hello Chris, For the most part I love Pioneer Elite products and have brought little else in the last 10 years. I have a question concerning your new BD player that I would love answered.

Where is the i link?

Let me explain. Okay the player can pass the info through 5.1 analog outs. The problem is all digital processing is out the window with my VSX-55TXi . THX processing gone, MCACC calibration gone, listening modes gone, etc. The MCACC especially is a huge advantage in a high end system. All I can do is set general speaker levels and distance for the analog inputs. Needless to say I feel someone was seriously asleep at the wheel during the product development stage of this player.

Why would the player have an i link? For the same reason it has a composite video output. To make the product as backward compatible as possible. I realize it will not decode any advanced audio formats, but it still could have transfered the LPCM or DD+ and Dolby True HD soundtracks converted to LPCM of course to any i link reciever with no loss of resolution.

My solution is this. My DV-59avi came with a great 1394 4 pin cable. An HDMI to 1394 4 pin conversion cable would solve all of the above problems. Transfering the audio in the digital realm straight to the reciever for digital processing. Much like a HDMI to DVI cable does except we are flipping to Audio only here.

Curious on your thoughts?
post #67 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRO-630HD
Dead on post! I was sold on Bluray being a Pioneer Elite guy. After seeing 5 discs on the format, they looked so poor it took little to convert. BD-50 and mpeg 4 at a minimum and all the extras from the dvd. I do not want the Ultimate Edition Bond films on BD with only a few of the extras available on the dvd's coming out next month.

Everything on Dolby True HD I have read states 1.5 to 2 mbps average with a possible peak at 3 or maybe 4 mbps depending on the source material. Average rates are nowhere near 4.5mbps. Example, Phantom of the Opera 5.1 True HD has an average bit rate of 1.6 mbps and a 3 mbps peak(16/48). There is nothing wrong with LPCM if you have the room, but it is far from efficient. VC1 and True HD are leaps and bounds ahead IMO. HDDVD's with 6 hours of special features on a 30 gb disc True HD and excellent picture should prove that (Constantine).

Similiar comments were made on average bit rates between the two formats with Don Ekland of Sony that were far from accurate stating picture bit rates for HDDVD were averaging 20+ mbps. The fact is CJPlay a compressionist for Warner gave the bit rates for Batman Begins, Harry Potter, Dukes of Hazzard, Firewall, Phantom of the Opera, Rumour Has It an I believe Troy. The average or ABR was 14 mpbs, the peak average or PBR was 20.8mbps for the 7 titles. This would hold true for both formats as all Warner now are VC1.
The Bit-rates I quoted of 4.5mbps were for DTS-HD and came directly from the folks at DTS who did most of the encodes....

Chris
post #68 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1
Chris,

Per my recollection the Thompson Film Grain Reduction is only applicable to AVC HP encodes. I don't believe it's being used for VC-1 encodes. Perhaps Amir or Ben can shed more light on this.

Confirmation:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8752193
post #69 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
That is a good question.. A question I brought up to my co-workers in Japan.. The main reason is that there is no standardized profile for the new audio formats to flow over 1394...

While it it possible for us to do it on our own, it most likely would not be compatible with other receivers/preamps with 1394.... (We gave a demonstration of DTS-HD using 1394 at Cedia)...

Chris
Granted but the player won't pass bitstream DD+, True HD or DTS-HD (correction with DTS-HD as you pointed out it will, with all the Fox titles using DTS-HD that seems foolish to bypass that advantage) anyway. It would have to be converted to LPCM then sent to the reciever which the i link has done on 3 generations of your high end dvd players. The key here is the LPCM conversion is at full resolution versus a spdif downconversion. Since Sony and other BD titles like those from Disney are using LPCM anyway it obviously should have been added. Since it was not, back to my comments on the HDMI to 4 pin 1394 conversion cable that fixes the entire dilemna.

Does it seem feasible Pioneer would manufacture a conversion cable for those with i link recievers to get full digital processing?
post #70 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya
Why in the world would one-time charges associated with a laptop battery recall at a rival CE company concern Pioneer?
Because Pioneer has chosen to support BD which is ultimately a Sony offspring. I am questioning Pioneer's unilateral decision to support BD. Would you be willing to invest your reputation and millions of dollars in Sony right now?
post #71 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayselle
Because Pioneer has chosen to support BD which is ultimately a Sony offspring. I am questioning Pioneer's unilateral decision to support BD. Would you be willing to invest your reputation and millions of dollars in Sony right now?
Pioneer is not throwing their reputation behind Sony, they are throwing their reputation behind Blu-ray. I know for some people they are one and the same... but they aren't. How else to say it?

And seriously, if you need to cleanse yourself of the myth of Sony's impending fiscal implosion, you may as well visit the thread about the same topic here. Sony is fiscally as fine as they have been throughout the entirety of their split with the DVD Forum, and by extension the period of time for which they have been promoting Blu-ray.

Again, like I said - a 94% profit drop in one quarter related to a battery recall doesn't portend to overall future performance. Rather, the 8% rise in sales and revenues does. Which is why the stock was up today.
post #72 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya
Pioneer is not throwing their reputation behind Sony, they are throwing their reputation behind Blu-ray. I know for some people they are one and the same... but they aren't. How else to say it?

And seriously, if you need to cleanse yourself of the myth of Sony's impending fiscal implosion, you may as well visit the thread about the same topic here. Sony is fiscally as fine as they have been throughout the entirety of their split with the DVD Forum, and by extension the period of time for which they have been promoting Blu-ray.

Again, like I said - a 94% profit drop in one quarter related to a battery recall doesn't portend to overall future performance. Rather, the 8% rise in sales and revenues does. Which is why the stock was up today.
We could banter back and forth like this for quite some time. Truth remains that Sony is not particularly showing any gleam of light. One bad press release after another. This last month it's all been about battery recalls, missed due dates, PS3 shortage, etc.

I don't think anybody is saying "impeding implosion".

Did I state Blu-Ray is 100% Sony? No. Sony does represent Blu-ray though; last I heard Sony was the main disc manufacture.

Why do I get attacked for making valid points. I like pioneer products and would love to see a pioneer HD-DVD player. Pioneer is a member of both the BDA and DVD-Forum. I am simply asking why BD? From my simple point of view HD-DVD is commonsense.
post #73 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayselle
We could banter back and forth like this for quite some time. Truth remains that Sony is not particularly showing any gleam of light. One bad press release after another. This last month it's all been about battery recalls, missed due dates, PS3 shortage, etc.

I don't think anybody is saying "impeding implosion".

Did I state Blu-Ray is 100% Sony? No. Sony does represent Blu-ray though; last I heard Sony was the main disc manufacture.

Why do I get attacked for making valid points. I like pioneer products and would love to see a pioneer HD-DVD player. Pioneer is a member of both the BDA and DVD-Forum. I am simply asking why BD? From my simple point of view HD-DVD is commonsense.
We could indeed banter on like this, because to be sure my views are different than yours, but in the interests of not derailing this thread we'll leave it alone.
post #74 of 174
Chris,

Thank you so much for participating in this forum, and providing accurate information about your products! Out of all these BluRay/HD-DVD player makers, you are the ONLY one here giving us information directly from the source. We are truly privileged to have you here ! (Sorry I just dun understand why some people take this opportunity here to start a bashing of xxx format/codec/xxx company/etc. Can we let this thread stay on topic , that is, about the upcoming Pioneer Blu-ray player ?)

I have some questions regarding the player:

1) We now know it can have a Source Direct mode that outputs whatever natively stored. Way cool! My Q: does this apply to DVD also ? (i.e. 480i ?)
2) It uses Sigma decoder. May I know what scaler it uses ? Something inhouse (aka "VQE9" thing ?) or an external solution this time ?
3) About the Sigma decoder (really a question to Kjack since I noticed he's also participating), could you elaborate a bit on its capabilities ? (e.g. ICP/CUE free ? Can it also output 1080p60 or the player's scaler can ?)
4) Its Media Gallery function supports "MPEG1, MPEG2 (TS and PS), MPEG2HD (TS and PS), WMV9, WMVHD, VC1.. Plus it supports Playsforsure content (Yahoo, Napster, CinemaNow, etc...)". Does this mean I could store for example a WMVHD content (like the T2 WMVHD disk) in a PC and the Pio plays it through the network ? :)
5) Is it absolutely confirmed the player will not read CDs ?

Lastly, we have wild rumours here about the street date of the player. Do you have a firm date now ? ( Definitely before Xmas I hope ? :) )
post #75 of 174
Thread Starter 
Thank you c722,

I kind of wish we could stay on topic as well, however I probably instigated some of the questions.....

First let me tell you all of the output format options..

Source Direct---- Whatever format is on the disc is output.

Auto ---- Reads the edid block on the display and outputs that format. If there are 2 edid blocks then it chooses the highest resolution.

480i---- Outputs all content in 480i (Even BD content)

480p --- Outputs all content in 480p (Even BD content)

720p ---- Outputs all content in 720p

1080i 60 ---- Outputs all content in 1080i60 (Over HDMI only DVD is UpRez)

1080p --- If the 24p Direct out option is off the player outputs 1080p60 if it is on it outputs 1080p24

As far as the scaler, the Sigma 8634 has a built in video scaler that is quite impressive... All scaling is performed by this part.


As far as its exact capabilities please give me a little time I will get the exact answer.. I don't want to give any bad info..

HMG--- Unfortunately the WMVHD discs rely on a different copy protection scheme than normal downloaded content. You can however download WMVHD content from Microsoft Showcase site or Cinemanow offers WMVHD content as well... And of course HMG will also playback BD compliant streams over the network...

One additional feature I don't think has been mentioned is that all of the HMG content can be played back from recordable DVDs and recordable BD discs... It is called Disc Navigator.. Same UI that is used for Network Playback...

And yes it is confirmed that the unit does not play CDs.....

Chris



Quote:
Originally Posted by c722
Chris,

Thank you so much for participating in this forum, and providing accurate information about your products! Out of all these BluRay/HD-DVD player makers, you are the ONLY one here giving us information directly from the source. We are truly privileged to have you here ! (Sorry I just dun understand why some people take this opportunity here to start a bashing of xxx format/codec/xxx company/etc. Can we let this thread stay on topic , that is, about the upcoming Pioneer Blu-ray player ?)

I have some questions regarding the player:

1) We now know it can have a Source Direct mode that outputs whatever natively stored. Way cool! My Q: does this apply to DVD also ? (i.e. 480i ?)
2) It uses Sigma decoder. May I know what scaler it uses ? Something inhouse (aka "VQE9" thing ?) or an external solution this time ?
3) About the Sigma decoder (really a question to Kjack since I noticed he's also participating), could you elaborate a bit on its capabilities ? (e.g. ICP/CUE free ? Can it also output 1080p60 or the player's scaler can ?)
4) Its Media Gallery function supports "MPEG1, MPEG2 (TS and PS), MPEG2HD (TS and PS), WMV9, WMVHD, VC1.. Plus it supports Playsforsure content (Yahoo, Napster, CinemaNow, etc...)". Does this mean I could store for example a WMVHD content (like the T2 WMVHD disk) in a PC and the Pio plays it through the network ? :)
5) Is it absolutely confirmed the player will not read CDs ?

Lastly, we have wild rumours here about the street date of the player. Do you have a firm date now ? ( Definitely before Xmas I hope ? :) )
post #76 of 174
Thanks Chris! Very impressive output format capabilities!
Can all these output formats be controlled via a simple button in the remote ? Or you need to go into an OSD to set it first ?

On component output, does it get hirez also ? Or is it max'ed at 480p ?
post #77 of 174
Quote:
It is also clear that HD DVD has gained its foot-hold by the clever tactic of making the player a loss-leader
And Blu-ray kept themselves in the game without good software or hardware by a clever ruse of constantly announcing delivery dates that were almost always missed. I think the Blu-ray strategy is actually quite slick since they had NOTHING good enough to deliver at launch, but the shrewd use of a big advertising budget, press releases and announced but impossible-to-meet delivery dates kept everyone hanging around long enough until they could produce something viable. And don't forget how they are shoving a Blu-ray player into every home with a PS3 in order to convince the studios where they should put their titles. Frankly, they are quite a lot more "clever" than HD-DVD. Kudos to their marketing and PR.
post #78 of 174
Chris

Thanks for your excellent and well informed posts. I love learning about the pio, it sounds like a powerhouse!

To the mods:

Please clean up all the HD-DVD talk in this thread please. It sickens me how filthy some of the fanatics are by trying to come into every single blu-ray thread just to turn it into crap. Thanks.
post #79 of 174
blitz,

Chris asked a lot of the HD DVD questions. Try to read, comprehend and then make a post. Posting using a "blitz" style isn't every smart as evident in your 314 prior attempts.
post #80 of 174
Question on the "24P" option:

Is it really 24P or is the player capable of delivering 24PsF over HDMI?

Because 24PsF input support is and has been available on some products (like my Qualia 004) for some time now, whereas 24P doesn't seem to be real yet. I have seen some devices that support 48P, however.

Vern
post #81 of 174
Quote:
Auto ---- Reads the edid block on the display and outputs that format. If there are 2 edid blocks then it chooses the highest resolution.
Can you also manually select the output option or is it only source direct or auto. I am wondering how this would work with an outboard scaler such as the Iscan VP-50.
post #82 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
I really wish I could give you a definite answer to this question.... All I can say is that we are investigating the possibility...(I am really pushing it)...

Chris
Thanks Chris for your answer. I'm sure Pioneer will do their best even if it is not there DAY ONE. Like you - I'm an owner of a HD-A1 since Day 1. There was NO TrueHD support until this last release 2.0.

I look forward to receiving my pre-ordered Pioneer from Jeff at the Pioneer Store, and I'm 2500 miles away [GRIN]!
post #83 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo
Trust me, I feel your frustration.. If anyone is to blame about the lack of information being in the marketplace about this player it is me....

In order to provide a player that will support true 24p output we only have one choice in media chips (Sigma), not only is BD a new format, but the chip we are using is brand new as well....
Chris
I have to AGREE with Chris on this point, Especially considering Pioneer's price point.

I bought a HD-A1 Day one. I have been extremely happy with it because at Toshiba's price point - I consider it disposable. In fact when the new G2 Toshiba's were announced at CEDIA - I was ready to Pre-order the X2 and put my A1 to rest so to speak. But since it appeaars the X2 will not support 1080p24 - It looks like I have to wait for Gen 3.

I ran to my Magnolia store and palyed with the Demo Pioneer player only one hour after their got it. THEN I CAME HOME and Pre-Ordered my Pioneer. Waiting for 1080p24 - at least in my BOOK - is the right choice.

I'll be at CES in January to see what is ANNOUNCED NEW THEN!
post #84 of 174
Will the Home Media Gallery be capable of playing DVDs stored on disk across the network? That WOULD be a killer feature.
post #85 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinH
Will the Home Media Gallery be capable of playing DVDs stored on disk across the network? That WOULD be a killer feature.
Since MCE allows you to, I'm assuming this does also (since Chris said it works with MCE).

The Home Media functions are the icing for me. I'll probably be buying one for my parents, just to keep it simple for them.
post #86 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias
Question on the "24P" option:

Is it really 24P or is the player capable of delivering 24PsF over HDMI?

Because 24PsF input support is and has been available on some products (like my Qualia 004) for some time now, whereas 24P doesn't seem to be real yet. I have seen some devices that support 48P, however.

Vern
Define "real". My Marantz VP11S1 accepts 24p, are you saying that it's support is not real? Of course it uses a Gennum VXP processing engine and takes the 24p and frame doubles to 48Hz for display.

24p is actually the most sensible output value, as it would allow the display or scaler (if you use one intermediately) to output whatever is appropriate, ideally as a multiple of 24.

24pSF is quite an odd duck in the real world, and it's a shame your Qualia is in that vanishingly small community that will accept 24pSF. It's too bad the 1080p upgrade only accepts 1080p60. Have you considered an intermediate scaler that could take 1080p24 and output 1080p24SF? That seems like the best possible solution as it's almost completely certain that no CE player from a mass market company will support that output rate.

Cheers,
post #87 of 174
Chris (walkamo):

You've got to get support for native decoding of the lossless audio formats into the player. Without it, IMO you're compromising the player from a superb product into a product that many will respond to with a bit of trepidation. I for one would be very disappointed if this decoding is not available. If not available in the initial firmware release, perhaps you could pull a "Toshiba" and make it available in a future firmware update.

From the video side, by spec it looks great (if you'll pardon the pun). Since most movie titles are being authored at 1080p24, the path to a display that accepts 1080p24 is pristine.

Cheers,
post #88 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches
Chris (walkamo):

You've got to get support for native decoding of the lossless audio formats into the player. Without it, IMO you're compromising the player from a superb product into a product that many will respond with a bit of trepidation. I for one would be very disappointed if this decoding is not available. If not available in the initial firmware release, perhaps you could pull a "Toshiba" and make it available in a future firmware update.

From the video side, by spec it looks great (if you'll pardon the pun). Since most movie titles are being authored at 1080p24, the path to a display that accepts 1080p24 is pristine.

Cheers,
John,

You've hit it on the head! That was the ONLY reason (besides the unknown "real" release date) that I opted for the Panasonic. IF Pioneer had announced that it was going to provide that support like Panasonic and Toshiba, I would have waited. I cannot be in a small minority here. Thank U! Coming from U, being in the industry, maybe your voice will have some weight. Both the video side and the media server aspects seem awesome.

IF Pioneer announces audio firmware will be upgraded AND they make the FW available to end-users (which is not done now), I for one would replace the Panasonic with the Elite with little hesitation. But, let me make one point, if Pioneer continues their practice of only allowing auth. service centers do the upgrades, then they will miss the mark. For example, the repair company that Pioneer uses as their main auth center in Atlanta, quotes 20+ business days just to look at any piece of equipment coming in the door. IMO, that is unacceptably long and it's too long according to Pioneer's Regional Manager whose office is here (I've talked to him). Would anyone want to wait 4 weeks just to have firmware installed? Toshiba has really scored a big plus with their process, IMO. I'd take any upgrade over none, but Pioneer certainly can figure out a method of letting end-users sign up and download them.

We need those audio codecs, Chris!

ss9001
post #89 of 174
I was in Tweeter today and watch a few minutes of the Pioneer Blu-Ray Demo...Excellent PQ. Better than the Panasonic playing right next to it. I asked the salesman if they are avalible or if they were just a demo unit. He said "It's in Stock,we carry just about all of them now,Panasonic,Samsung,Pioneer",The Pioneer is defenitly the best one" Great News for Blu-Ray!!
post #90 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuley
I was in Tweeter today and watch a few minutes of the Pioneer Blu-Ray Demo...Excellent PQ. Better than the Panasonic playing right next to it. I asked the salesman if they are avalible or if they were just a demo unit. He said "It's in Stock,we carry just about all of them now,Panasonic,Samsung,Pioneer",The Pioneer is defenitly the best one" Great News for Blu-Ray!!
The TURKEY at Magnolia [BB] said the same thing - IN-STOCK.

I said Ok - Give me one. Then he found out there are NONE.

Salesman say ANYTHING!
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