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Westy LVM-37W3 with 1080i or 1080p sources

post #1 of 79
10/29/06 at 9:57am
Thread Starter 
I have the Westinghouse LVM-37W3 (a 1080p display) now for 3 months, that's enough of a burn in period as I have it running nearly 18 hours a day both as computer monitor and HD display for various 1080i and 1080p sources.

Here, we try to share the experience with existing HD sources like OTA, cable, DVR, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD.

At the moment, I have watched 1080i mostly through cable and HD-DVD through HDMI and DVI.

As of October 29, 2006, I am still waiting for the 2nd generation Blu-Ray DVD before getting my hands on the 1080p sources.

What have you all been running on your 1080p displays?
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post #2 of 79
10/29/06 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
Serenity in HD-DVD is probably one of the best; if not current best, showcase for the new medium. The blacks, wideouts, and action scenes are nearly filmlike without any digital conversion artifacts on the Westy 37W3 1080p panel.

Playing a recorded version through computer 1080p mode yields an even better result.

Not sure if Serenity will be released as 1080p Blu-Ray or 3rd gen HD-DVD at "p" spec, but as of this moment, the 1080i HD-DVD is so seemless that I can watch the movie at 2 feet without seeing any "dots". It's not any different in a dark room at 2 feet than watching the movie in a real theater.

Paul
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post #3 of 79
11/4/06 at 9:18pm
Thread Starter 
The quality of the new Time Warner Cable NYC HD offerings in MAX-HD and Starz-HD had been rather sharp! ALl 1080i material showed a lack of macro blocking and only some motion artifacts during very fast scenes.

Can't wait to see those 6 Star Wars films on MAX next Friday night. Wondering if they will be all 1080i.
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post #4 of 79
11/5/06 at 4:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Chiu View Post

What have you all been running on your 1080p displays?

Me: 720p! I don't have any good 1080 sources yet.

I would like to hear your judgment of 1080i deinterlacing on the 37w3. Do you have any reason to think it is not being done correctly? I'm not saying so; it's just that on my DVD player I prefer the 720p to the 1080i image, but I suspect the player is at fault. I want to be sure the display is not contributing poor deinterlacing.

-Bill
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post #5 of 79
11/5/06 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 
Bill,

Welcome.

One big mystery which I may never solve is why the motion artifacts akin to 1080i displayed on the LVM-37W3 1080p display have mostly disappeared over the last month.

During the 1st month of use, my 37W3 had issues with 1080i material from HBO-HD, SHO-HD, ESPN-HD, and even the usually clean HDNET channels. After running almost 18 hours a day for over a month, especially a "flashing" program in a futile attempt to dislodge a stucked "green" pixel. The pixel remained but the motion/borders 1080i/1080p artifacts have all but vanished.

Now, this may be Time Warner cable cleaning up their material. Why I may never know who to praise.

I do not that 1080p and 1080i output of older DVDs from a Denon 1930ci up converting DVD player looks nearly distortion free.

1080p files of Serenity and Sin City looks absolutely film like. BETTER than when I saw them in the theaters.

Last Friday's Madagascar on HBO-HD looked so sharp and color perfect that my 8 year old son complained about the local theater where we saw it this past summer. "This is way better than the theater version, daddy...." I agree wholeheartedly!

So far, the 1080i films from both MAX-HD and Starz-HD on Time Warner Cable has looked fantastic with only motion artifacts during fast action. These 2 HD premiums were added on by Time Warner on Nov 1, 2006

I am starting to receive my shipments of HD-DVDs with titles like Mission Impossible I, II, III and Serenity. They will be playing on the XBOX360 HD-DVD player when it arrives next week. I will order Blu-Ray DVDs as soon as I get my Playstation 3 this Nov 17, 2006.

Very interesting, all the HD-DVDs I have received so far are labelled as 1080p. Curious that this is so since all HD-DVD players are only 1080i.

So Bill, my LVM-37W3 have not had any 1080i to 1080p conversion issues since Mid Auguest 2006. Aside from a single stuck pixel in the upper left, the LVM-37W3 is perfect.

Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Me: 720p! I don't have any good 1080 sources yet.

I would like to hear your judgment of 1080i deinterlacing on the 37w3. Do you have any reason to think it is not being done correctly? I'm not saying so; it's just that on my DVD player I prefer the 720p to the 1080i image, but I suspect the player is at fault. I want to be sure the display is not contributing poor deinterlacing.

-Bill
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post #6 of 79
11/5/06 at 2:06pm
Thread Starter 
The 8300HD DVR here in NYC now have the HDTV listings for next Friday's Star Wars marathon.

Starting Saturday 11/11 at 12AM, it's

1. Star Wars Phantom Menace HDTV 133 min Ends 220AM
2. Attack of Clones HDTV 143 min Ends 445AM
3. Revenge of Sith HDTV 140 min Ends 710AM
4. Star Wars HDTV 125 min Ends 920AM
5. Empire Strikes Back HDTV 124 min Ends 1130AM
6. Return of Jedi HDTV 133 min Ends 150PM

Get a new external hard drive or clear out that 8300HD DVR!

Paul
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post #7 of 79
11/5/06 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Chiu View Post

I do not that 1080p and 1080i output of older DVDs from a Denon 1930ci up converting DVD player looks nearly distortion free.

That's what I wanted to know. You're saying the Denon can produce both 1080i and 1080p, and that the image looks the same for the same disk?

Oppo has a 1080p player coming shortly...

-Bill
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post #8 of 79
11/5/06 at 7:00pm
Thread Starter 
The 1080p output just appears tighter. There were no artifacts with either outputs from the Denon (1080i or 1080p), but I have the 1080p mode on all the time.

In most of today's 1080i football games, only some tele shots of players during runs had any blocking on the 37W3 and they were minor. In 720p mode, they appear also.



Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

That's what I wanted to know. You're saying the Denon can produce both 1080i and 1080p, and that the image looks the same for the same disk?

Oppo has a 1080p player coming shortly...

-Bill
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post #9 of 79
11/6/06 at 5:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Chiu View Post

The 1080p output just appears tighter. There were no artifacts with either outputs from the Denon (1080i or 1080p), but I have the 1080p mode on all the time.

So there is a difference. We don't know if the difference is caused by the signals the player produces, or by the display's deinterlacing.

We may not be able to diagnose this with a DVD player. I think (but I've been wrong before) that scaling is always done on progressive signals. So if you want 1080i from an SD DVD, it must do something like: 480i -> 480p -> 1080p -> 1080i. That final step is another variable that may change the image. It also shows that if your display accepts 1080p there is no reason to generate 1080i.

We would need some sort of signal generator of known quality to test the display's deinterlacing.

Strangely enough, I believe HD DVD and Blu-Ray players do similar funny business. (I've been following those discussions only intermittently, so pardon me if I'm spreading misinformation). The disks contain 1080p sources, but these are reinterlaced for display. To produces a 1080p signal they do 1080p -> 1080i -> 1080p. Why? I think it is because the extras on a disk are often 480i and to do the subpicture feature the signals must both be interlaced. If true, it strikes this film fan as dumb. Death to extras.

-Bill
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post #10 of 79
11/6/06 at 5:17am
I will let you know my experiences, I recieve my 37w3 Tommorow afternoon
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post #11 of 79
11/6/06 at 6:22am
Thread Starter 
Over the next year, I'll have both HD-DVD and Blu-ray players, we'll see how each do 1080p on the 37W3





Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

So there is a difference. We don't know if the difference is caused by the signals the player produces, or by the display's deinterlacing.

We may not be able to diagnose this with a DVD player. I think (but I've been wrong before) that scaling is always done on progressive signals. So if you want 1080i from an SD DVD, it must do something like: 480i -> 480p -> 1080p -> 1080i. That final step is another variable that may change the image. It also shows that if your display accepts 1080p there is no reason to generate 1080i.

We would need some sort of signal generator of known quality to test the display's deinterlacing.

Strangely enough, I believe HD DVD and Blu-Ray players do similar funny business. (I've been following those discussions only intermittently, so pardon me if I'm spreading misinformation). The disks contain 1080p sources, but these are reinterlaced for display. To produces a 1080p signal they do 1080p -> 1080i -> 1080p. Why? I think it is because the extras on a disk are often 480i and to do the subpicture feature the signals must both be interlaced. If true, it strikes this film fan as dumb. Death to extras.

-Bill
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post #12 of 79
11/25/06 at 10:52am
Thread Starter 
After several days with the XBOX360 HD-DVD add on drive, I have used the Monsters Cable Component cables through the XBOX360 console and into a Westinghouse LVM37W3, the resolution is excellent but the color is too warm for almost all the titles I have viewes. These include Mission Impossible 3, 2, and 1, King Kong and Serenity.

Although Microsoft has upgraded their software and made 1080p available for games through the console even with the Component cable connection, once the HD-DVD is in use, only 1080i is available.

There is no motion artifacts AT ALL under 1080i with the HD-DVD add on, absolutely none! Even explosions DO NOT have that blockiness one gets on HD-Cable or HD-Satellite!

It's just that the color is WARM, very very warm.

It's a setting issue and frankly I do not like having to set my 37W3 whenever I use the XBOX360 HD-DVD add on.

I will be connecting using the monsters VGA HD cable once I get them and see if that alters the color temperature at 1080p.

Paul
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post #13 of 79
11/28/06 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Chiu View Post

I have the Westinghouse LVM-37W3 (a 1080p display) now for 3 months, that's enough of a burn in period as I have it running nearly 18 hours a day both as computer monitor and HD display for various 1080i and 1080p sources.

Here, we try to share the experience with existing HD sources like OTA, cable, DVR, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD.

At the moment, I have watched 1080i mostly through cable and HD-DVD through HDMI and DVI.

As of October 29, 2006, I am still waiting for the 2nd generation Blu-Ray DVD before getting my hands on the 1080p sources.

What have you all been running on your 1080p displays?

Paul,

Not sure how I missed this thread.

Most of the content I watch is HD cable from TWC in Upstate, NY. HDNet, INHD1 and INHD2, PBS-TV and HBO - and others, all provide very good HD content, although the quality of the material can vary greatly. In addition, I have a Toshiba HD-XA1 player and a handful of HD titles that provides a stellar picture and sound - despite only supporting 1080i output.

I also have an HTPC that supports 1080p output and a couple of titles in the WMV-HD format. These have to be seen to be believed. They are absolutely gorgeous at 1080p.

I probably won't have a 360 for a while(if that's the GC I decide on).
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post #14 of 79
11/28/06 at 7:14am
Thread Starter 
redir,

Welcome!

Since TWC added 719 (MAX-HD) and 720 (Starz-HD), we have an increase of perhaps as much as 25% more HD 1080i material for our 37W3.

I still do not have the Blu-ray player as I lucked out on the Playstation 3 and the Sony BDP-S1 2nd generation player is still not out. I am keen on getting one because my XBOX360 HD-DVD add on does not have HDMI or DVI.

As I mentioned above, the component connection the XBOX360 has with the 37W3 is 1080p with games only and 1080i with HD-DVD movies through the add-on.

Where the resolution of the 1080i HD-DVD on the 37W3 is supreme, the color is too warm. I still do not have the Monster's HD VGA cables as yet to play at 1080p.

Comparing the 1080i 2:35:1 HD-DVD of titles like Serenity with some 1080i cable version of it converted to 16:9, the HD-DVD resolution is better, but the 1080i cable version has more accurate colors when played through my DELL XPS and converted to 1080p with the ATI X800XT graphics card and Monster's VGA cables into the 37W3.

I still think Blu-ray DVD through HDMI should provide the best video. We'll see.

Paul
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post #15 of 79
11/28/06 at 5:03pm
I just got the same Westy as well. Looking at getting the Toshiba A2 when it's released. Does anyone think this will be the best, and/or most cost effective vs quality player to use on this panel? Im worried about artifacts, and ghosting. (on comcast, even the best of channels had some ghosting going on and some artifacts on fast movements).

Also interested in the 1080p SD DVD Oppo that is comming out. Wonder how this would compare to the Tosh A2 with use on the Westy?? Same thing for the Denon 1930CI DVD player...
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post #16 of 79
11/28/06 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LocoRob View Post

I just got the same Westy as well. Looking at getting the Toshiba A2 when it's released. Does anyone think this will be the best, and/or most cost effective vs quality player to use on this panel? Im worried about artifacts, and ghosting. (on comcast, even the best of channels had some ghosting going on and some artifacts on fast movements).

Also interested in the 1080p SD DVD Oppo that is comming out. Wonder how this would compare to the Tosh A2 with use on the Westy?? Same thing for the Denon 1930CI DVD player...

There are some SD DVDs that look very good on upscaled players like the Oppo. Before I got my XA1, I had the Oppo 971, and it worked well with many SD titles - some more than others, even at 1080i which is the highest reso the 971 produces.

However, having said that, no upscaling player I've seen comes close to the overall clarity and clean, crisp picture of an HD-DVD. I really don't use the Oppo much anymore since the XA1 has very good upscaling too. But, quality HD-DVDs are indeed something to see on a 1080p panel. Polar Express is one of my favorites - even though it has many dark scenes (black levels are not a strong point of the Westy, nor of many LCDs), but the animation and sound is incredible. The 'hot chocolate' dance scene is unbelievable. It's clearly a reference HD-DVD to me!)
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post #17 of 79
11/28/06 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LocoRob View Post

I just got the same Westy as well. Looking at getting the Toshiba A2 when it's released. Does anyone think this will be the best, and/or most cost effective vs quality player to use on this panel? Im worried about artifacts, and ghosting. (on comcast, even the best of channels had some ghosting going on and some artifacts on fast movements).

Also interested in the 1080p SD DVD Oppo that is comming out. Wonder how this would compare to the Tosh A2 with use on the Westy?? Same thing for the Denon 1930CI DVD player...

I have HD-DVD add on to Xbox360 and running this over component right now at 1080i. No ghosting or artifacts that I can see, picture looks great. Some artifacts during fast movement are related to limited broadcast data rate, have nothing to do with TV and don't show up on HD-DVD which has higher data rate and often use more advanced codecs. If you have Xbox360, the most cost effective would be HD-DVD add on at $199 and it comes with King Kong, the movie. You can hook up this drive to computer but at the moment there is no reliable player and you need some powerfull computer with HDCP video card at least over DVI. The player should be available soon.
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post #18 of 79
11/28/06 at 7:28pm
Thread Starter 
I am addressing a few points.

1. As pete4 said, your computer does need to have horsepower to play HD-DVD 1080p on the 37W3. I'd try it with my DELL XPS Gen3 with an ATI X800XT 256MB GPU and 4GB RAM in the XPS. Well, WinDVD8 did not play the HD-DVD at all. So, I cannot test the 1080p

2. Still waiting for the Monster's HD VGA wires to arrive so I can go XBOX360+HD-DVD to 37W3 and get true 1080p

3. Tried OPPO 971 at 1080i, have Denon 1930Ci at 1080p, and tried Denon 2930 and 3930 as well now. NONE of these compares with even HD-DVD at 1080i. Don't bother with up conversion.....

If the old DVD collection is too big, then go either the Denon 1930CI or the OPPO 971

4. I use XBOX360+HD-DVD now with Monster's Component wires and I do not see ANY artifacts during the explosions in Serenity, Mission Impossible 1,2,or 3, King Kong, or V for Vendetta. So, no artifacts even in 1080i. I just get the warm coloring under 1080i. I believe the VGA Monsters should cure that at 1080p. I hope for that...

Paul
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post #19 of 79
11/28/06 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Chiu View Post

2. Still waiting for the Monster's HD VGA wires to arrive so I can go XBOX360+HD-DVD to 37W3 and get true 1080p

3. Tried OPPO 971 at 1080i, have Denon 1930Ci at 1080p, and tried Denon 2930 and 3930 as well now. NONE of these compares with even HD-DVD at 1080i. Don't bother with up conversion.....

If the old DVD collection is too big, then go either the Denon 1930CI or the OPPO 971

Paul

Paul, just to clarify on my end with your experience, are you saying not to bother with the Denon 1930CI and just go straight to the new Toshiba A2 (1080i) that is comming out for better clarity, performance, etc? Also, would the HD DVD Player not play the older DVD's just as well as the older upscaling DVD players or no?
Thanks!!
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post #20 of 79
11/28/06 at 11:32pm
Thread Starter 
Rob,

Is the A2 a HD-DVD? If so, yes on that with HD-DVD. You'll just have to build a HD-DVD collection. Hey, it's only $17.95 each at Amazon for most HD-DVD with the 10% off ...

If you have a large standard DVD collection, you may have an issue as most HD-DVD players do not up convert old DVDs well. At least, that's my experience with my XBOX360 HD-DVD add on. But the A2 may be different. For up convert, the Denon 1930 does the job.

Paul
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post #21 of 79
11/29/06 at 5:31am
For people with the HD-DVD 360 add on and VGA cable running 1080p.. what color temp you set your 37w3 to? I tried warm but the whites are too dingy.... I've found normal to be okay but a little too blue but the whites look better
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post #22 of 79
11/29/06 at 5:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Chiu View Post

Rob,

Is the A2 a HD-DVD? If so, yes on that with HD-DVD. You'll just have to build a HD-DVD collection. Hey, it's only $17.95 each at Amazon for most HD-DVD with the 10% off ...

If you have a large standard DVD collection, you may have an issue as most HD-DVD players do not up convert old DVDs well. At least, that's my experience with my XBOX360 HD-DVD add on. But the A2 may be different. For up convert, the Denon 1930 does the job.

Paul

Paul & Rob,

BTW, the Toshiba A2 HD-DVD (2nd gen) is supposed to output 1080p. It's should be available by late December or early January. FWIW, my Toshiba XA1 does a great job at upconverting older DVDs. Equally, if not better than my Oppo 971. So I would expect the A2 to have equal performance in this area too.
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post #23 of 79
11/29/06 at 5:55am
Everything I've read on the A2 says 1080i output as maximum. The higher end one for $999 should do 1080p though.
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post #24 of 79
11/29/06 at 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by persiannight View Post

Everything I've read on the A2 says 1080i output as maximum. The higher end one for $999 should do 1080p though.

My mistake. You may be right. It's the XA2 that will output 1080p.
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post #25 of 79
11/29/06 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by redjr View Post

My mistake. You may be right. It's the XA2 that will output 1080p.

Correct, which is my dabate at this point, as to go with the A2 and have 1080i, or just go regular upscale player to 1080p...
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post #26 of 79
11/29/06 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LocoRob View Post

Correct, which is my dabate at this point, as to go with the A2 and have 1080i, or just go regular upscale player to 1080p...

Even with the A2 @1080i, IMO you will get much better PQ then a regular upscaling SD player. There really is no comparison. Keep in mind... on almost all HD-DVDs the 1080i output will be 'reconstructed' perfectly on the Westy in all of its 1080p glory. This fact has been well documented on AVS and other sites.
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post #27 of 79
11/29/06 at 7:04pm
I concur. I have xbox360 hd-dvd add on and the picture is great at 1080i over component. I was afraid I will get those strange interlacing artifacts I get on some 1080i broadcast movies but so far I see none. One thing I don't understand is, how come there is not even the simplest calibration pattern on any of the HD-DVD discs I've seen so far. They have those patterns on some DVD discs and here new format with great picture quality and no simple way to adjust the TV even in the ballpark. Without calibration pattern it is almost impossible to tell if the picture is supposed to look like that or is the TV in need of adjustment.
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post #28 of 79
11/29/06 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

I concur. I have xbox360 hd-dvd add on and the picture is great at 1080i over component. I was afraid I will get those strange interlacing artifacts I get on some 1080i broadcast movies but so far I see none. One thing I don't understand is, how come there is not even the simplest calibration pattern on any of the HD-DVD discs I've seen so far. They have those patterns on some DVD discs and here new format with great picture quality and no simple way to adjust the TV even in the ballpark. Without calibration pattern it is almost impossible to tell if the picture is supposed to look like that or is the TV in need of adjustment.

Pete,

I think you might onto something. Makes perfect sense to me - a simple tool that would help people perform an easy baseline calibration for their TV. Opportunity here for someone?
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post #29 of 79
11/29/06 at 9:19pm
I have the xbox HD dvd player.I am waiting for my 37w3 to arive.
I bought a dvi male to rca component (female) at monprice it has dpi switches for ati cards.
I want to try and hook up my xbox360 component to this dvi and plug it into my 37w3 dvi due you think this will work?
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post #30 of 79
12/1/06 at 9:55pm
Thread Starter 
Just got my Monsters HD VGA cables today ($54 at Amazon).

They are perfect!
All that warm color I get with Monsters Component Cables ($49) are GONE. The 1080p resolution is so so much sharper. I now can see that Cruise's eye color during the MI3 opening scene was actually green.. Beautiful rendering.

Everything is perfect at the default 37W3 settings for VGA with only a reduction of backlight to 20%.

OH, so sharp.
THe blacks are wonderful.
It's so much better than cable-HD.

I give it an A+ and I am a tough critic.

Now, if I only can get a Playstation 3 and compare with Blu-ray.

1080p.

It's here.

Halle Berry in that Swordfish scene at 1080p people....



Paul
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