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Breakthrough in ambient light rejecting screen - Page 2

post #31 of 112
10/31/06 at 8:33am
I'll let Bud deal with you off topic content.
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post #32 of 112
10/31/06 at 8:37am
Bud,

I am not sure how this will create disscusion on ambient light rejection, but it is your thread, so knock yourself out.

What I am saying to be more clear is that presenting your findings will allow others to try it, see if it works as well as you say, and then discuss it, knowing then what the hell it exactly is they are discussing. It will also work to prevent repeats of situations that occured in the past.

Again, no anomosity at all, and that the truth regardless of what mr snake oil says.
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post #33 of 112
10/31/06 at 8:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highside View Post

OK,

I'll take a generic bite. As I'm typing this you gave a clue that may be in the same direction as my thinking.

You have a very bright projector.
You stated that LL PJs may not be able to get the same results.
1 on a scale of 1 to 10
"fuzzy" photographs...........

and just for the fun of it, like guessing how many jelly beans are in the jar............

You are projection onto felt or microfiber, but I cant guess the color......

Rob

Hate to see you leave MM the west coast is just waking up. Another 10 million inquiring minds awake and reading.

No felt and no micro fiber.

And I knew that Da Vinci Code clue would draw in the big guns.

No jelly beans were hurt in the making of this screen.
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post #34 of 112
10/31/06 at 8:43am
OK, I'll bite. How big is the screen? And how far away is the PJ?

This thread is funny.
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post #35 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydonoghue View Post

OK, I'll bite. How big is the screen? And how far away is the PJ?

This thread is funny.

Jaydonoghue

Where in the heck did you come from? What makes a guy think he can come in here with 6 posts under his belt and a shiny green shamrock icon as an avatar and think he can ask thought provoking questions like that.

Ok you asked and if I don't answer I'll get beat up by the masses. In fact I'll give a little more info than you ask for.

The throw distance was 36 and the on screen foot lamberts were around 500 to1000FL
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post #36 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:10am
Hmm, Michael's but no paint. They don't sell fabric to my knowledge. That's Joann's. Funny how DIY screens make manly men into knowledgeable shoppers of those stores.
They do sell various foam boards and things like that likely in multiple colors.
Something like that might make it easy to suck light really well, but what about the PQ?
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post #37 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:12am
oh
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post #38 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:13am
Some of the hints are this is
"a simple one layer solution that doesn't involve the addition of any poly"...

it came from Michael's...

"How about I package my prototype screen and send it to the winner!"-- meaning it's NOT a substrate or anything large and bulky that can't easily be mailed (Bud uses canvas a lot and paints on canvas)...

"the screen material is sucking that ambient light up " and "Unlike BFLF I'm pretty sure my image is coming off just the very outer most surface of the screen." and "One thing I don't remember saying this was a mix????" -- so we're most likely looking at some sort of material here-- can't say 100% though...

Bud...any of these observations right or close?
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post #39 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

Some of the hints are this is
"a simple one layer solution that doesn't involve the addition of any poly"...

it came from Michael's...

"How about I package my prototype screen and send it to the winner!"-- meaning it's NOT a substrate or anything large and bulky that can't easily be mailed (Bud uses canvas a lot and paints on canvas)...

"the screen material is sucking that ambient light up " and "Unlike BFLF I'm pretty sure my image is coming off just the very outer most surface of the screen." and "One thing I don't remember saying this was a mix????" -- so we're most likely looking at some sort of material here-- can't say 100% though...

Bud...any of these observations right or close?

Yep they all are.
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post #40 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mn3kgtvr4 View Post

Hmm, Michael's but no paint. They don't sell fabric to my knowledge. That's Joann's. Funny how DIY screens make manly men into knowledgeable shoppers of those stores.
They do sell various foam boards and things like that likely in multiple colors.
Something like that might make it easy to suck light really well, but what about the PQ?

The do sell artist supplies and picture frames, matting material and things like that
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post #41 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:26am
The PJ is only 36 inches from the screen?

If that is correct, then the image would need to be magnified to be a good size, or is only 2 feet wide or the PJ is actually behind the screen, as some PJs allow. (even though I have no idea how that would would)
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post #42 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:27am
I am guessing the image is bright as your monitor simply because the image is the size of your monitor.
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post #43 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:33am
Prediction:

The newest trend in the DIY screen area will be "Nano-Screens" with everyone going towards smaller and smaller screens with projectors mounted closer and closer to the screen. Within a year this forum will die and we'll all take over the Direct Tube Display forum trying to find the holy grail of a 5" black tube, flat screen 1080P CRT tv available from Wal Mart below $150 that we can apply a duster coat of matte grey finish to to further reduce ambient rejection. Some will argue it's possible. Some will argue to keep the screen factory fresh and just view it under their bed covers at night for total light rejection.
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post #44 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

I am guessing the image is bright as your monitor simply because the image is the size of your monitor.


Be careful biglyle you are coming dangerously close to enjoying this.
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post #45 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:40am
hmm.. not paint, but could have been paint..so maybe not so much the screen itself. maybe something surrounding/covering the frame to contain the light? seems like you do like canvas if i remember tho...

not really a Rabbi just a nick I picked-up 'fore I gradjiated frum colledge

Brian
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post #46 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

No felt and no micro fiber.

And I knew that Da Vinci Code clue would draw in the big guns.

No jelly beans were hurt in the making of this screen.

Da Vinci was an artist and scientist... I'm still thinking along the lines of what exactly is located in the back corner of the store (at least all the Michael's I have been in all the artists supplies were in the back of the store to the right...) now what all is back there???

And we also know this is small... will you entertain a question? Can this be obtained in larger sizes?
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post #47 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

The throw distance was 36 and the on screen foot lamberts were around 500 to1000FL

Using the Projectorcentral.com calculator, for a 36" throw the image diagonal ranges from 23" - 26".
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post #48 of 112
10/31/06 at 9:59am
Can we get a confirmation on a screen size? projectorcentrak says your projector does a 23" diag with a 36" throw... true?

Edit: That will teach me to walk away and not click submit Same thought!
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post #49 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roar View Post

Can we get a confirmation on a screen size? projectorcentrak says your projector does a 23" diag with a 36" throw... true?

Edit: That will teach me to walk away and not click submit Same thought!


Yep the screen was about 26
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post #50 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:17am
OK, so we know this is small, not inherent to the material used (canvas maybe, no paint vs. 3 coats of paint, but not a mix), and is only one layer, and he's using a bright PJ, so i'm guessing it has to do with containing/concentrating the light source maybe?
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post #51 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:22am
A bright PJ, witha 36 inch throw to a 26 inch size screen is no breakthrough. You could pretty much use a cement wall and get excellent results. C'mon bud, there is obviosly more to this, because everyone already knew that lots lumens, plus small screen and short throw is a light buster.

So whats the real point here?
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post #52 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:24am
"First let me explain the lighting conditions in my room for these shots. All room lights were on that's a total of (8) 60 watt ceiling flood lights the closest 2 being 4 foot from the screen. in addition I added (2) 100 watt bare bulbs each side of the screen about 3 feet in front of the screen and 2 feet to the sides. The ceiling is a gloss white pegboard material. "

My first quess would be how the lights are arranged around the screen. Im not even going to pretend to explain any kinds of science involved with the lights. But don't think Bud would have explained the lighting conditions to this extent if they didn't effect the picture.

As for screen material, I don't know maybe he found a color or some material that absorbs just the wave length we perceive from abient lighting?

Well let me know if im even close lol.

MI
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post #53 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

Yep the screen was about 26

Congratulations! You've re-invented the $100 direct view CRT!
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post #54 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLidlessEye View Post

Congratulations! You've re-invented the $100 direct view CRT!


Yep, and it only sets you back $2500
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post #55 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:31am
Thread Starter 
I just got this PM so its time
(come on man !

spill the beans !

I got three gray hairs just from this morning .)




At 11:58 EST on 10-31-06 member extracheese aka Ken PMed me with the correct answer. So I have to declare him the official winner.

Below is a thumbnail of the setup I used. It's taken facing the projector but the screen side is the same flat black craft paper as on the back side. The reason I moved the screen so close to the projector was to demonstrate the neutral gray concept to its maximum potential. Neutral grays run between white and black. The point I was making with this experiment is to show that the percentage of black added to white does not limit the screens ability to accurately reproduce the whole spectrum of colors. As the screen shots show white can be projected from black given enough lumens. I didn't have a 50,000 lumen projector handy so the logical step to use for experimenting is moving the screen closer to the projector.
And yes the out of focus image is caused by the projectors limits on short focus. Given an add on lens the image would have shown very sharp. The other mode of the experiment was to show the ratio of good lumens to bad and how that effects ambient light.
IMO We will always be looking at a ratio of this type. There are a few simple straight forward things we have learned on this forum to date. We have learned how to improve gain at the cost of viewing cone. We have learned that screens can have improved efficiency while appearing darker to improve our perceptions of contrast. And I hope we have learned that the percent of gray in of itself does not crush whites to grays and alter colors. And darker screens with extra lumens tips the balance in favor of ambient rejection not really the correct term a better term would be ambient competition.

I know this example is not the answer to your dream screen to be used in your back yard on a sunny day, rather the point I wanted to show is that it is possible.

The gain of my little screen would be something like .01 or 100 times the light striking it as coming off. That's a waste of a lot of power in order to view in bright lights and I don't suggest anyone do that.

I do hope this helps people visualize this concept that black is just the darkest shade of white.

Thumbnail below:

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post #56 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:35am
Bud, did you use Strathmore Ridge Sheet paper?

http://www.michaels.com/art/online/d...284&channelid=

These raised ridge papers are excellent for decorative applications and backgrounds. Acid-free, 80 lb. cover colored art sheet. 20-inch x 26-inch
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post #57 of 112
10/31/06 at 10:43am
Wheww! Good thing Klouseau is on the case! -j
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post #58 of 112
10/31/06 at 11:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by klouseau View Post

Bud, did you use Strathmore Ridge Sheet paper?

http://www.michaels.com/art/online/d...284&channelid=

These raised ridge papers are excellent for decorative applications and backgrounds. Acid-free, 80 lb. cover colored art sheet. 20-inch x 26-inch


The actual paper I used was a couple sheets I had left over at work. And the exact spec I can't tell you for sure what it was. One side is shiny and the other a little dull. I put one on each side of the cardboard I hung up in the photo so what you are seeing is the shiny one. The flatter dull black side was what I projected to. It actual look about like what flat black stage paint looks like.

The point I was making is I don't think anyone wants to make a pure black screen at this point. But I wanted to push my experimentation to the edge.

There are a lot of people of the mind set that shining white light at any color returns a light of that color. So the logic goes if you shine white light at dark gray you see brighter dark gray.

There is a lot of belief that projecting to black causes colors to shift to blue. The addition of a very small amount of black is said to make whites blue and skin tones muddy. I don't totally understand those concepts yet and don't claim to be more than a novice at this. That's in part why I do these experiments to explain things to myself. And in the process there are 100s if not 1000s of others out there going, I was wondering the same thing.

Its easy to stand on the sidelines and say everyone knows that. Or Wow Bud you made a $2500 26 inch TV. But it's in trying something, anything and then viewing and discussing the results that someone will be sparked by the idea to try something else.

I think the people that participated in this thread enjoyed the time spent. After all these threads are a lot like TV channels no one makes you stay and view one or post to them.

In the end I wish all members here that post regularly do a search on their own name. It will list all your posts in order. Read thru them and take stock of when you helped someone with a answer and when you put forth something that informed the group as a whole.

I hope my little thread didn't cut into anyone's day to much. It did make 2 pages faster than any I have seen in a while.
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post #59 of 112
10/31/06 at 11:27am
Here is my super special paint. Hope you like it
http://avforum.no/forum/attachments/...v-aut_0219.jpg
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post #60 of 112
10/31/06 at 11:27am
i believe Bud has demonstrated a few points:
  1. people get pretty crazy when someone posts something controversial. everyone needs to settle down in that respect. have some fun!
  2. people aren't always asking the right questions when they analyze or give advice, screen size should have been the first question asked.
  3. a dark screen may be the perfect fit for some situations.
  4. Bud has a good sense of humor, perhaps a bit twisted, but good .
  5. Bud may deny it, but he has tricked us on the fine Halloween Day!

now to continue with item 3, i have been using this very concept for about 2 months now. I have a neutral gray screen with gain in the area of 0.47 to 0.50. However I only run a 55"-60" screen with about 500 available lumens. Whites are not crushed, black levels are of course excellent. My screen is a painted screen using flat latex only. that's it, simple. just taking advantage of the simplicity of the science and i'm happy with what i have for now.

i'll admit however, this is not the solution for someone who doesn't have a high output projector, or who wants a large screen.

oh, and Bud, i'm glad you all let us have some fun today. good job.
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