Official MK - Miller & Kreisel Thread?!? - Page 46

OK I have to ask for one last request, concerning my M&K MX-5000 Mk II sub.

Does anyone have a speaker grill badge or even the whole speaker cover that they'd sell? I know it's only aesthetics, but I'd love to be able to see the sub in "original" condition with the little M&K THX badge in the corner.

Thanks again!

The old M&K used to just send them if you asked. Mabe the new one will to? Or at least for a small fee.

Hi,

I've got a bit of a strange request, but here's a bit of the story first...

After waiting for about ten years for the right opportunity, I'm finally the very happy owner of three S-150's and an MX-350 (eBay). I also have the tilt / swivel brackets for the S150's, but not the stands / bases. The problem is, it's very rare to find the stands here in the UK. I've looked everywhere for them, and recently got a quote back for £495 per base !!!

The speakers themselves only cost me £330 each, so I'm going to make my own stands instead (well, I'll get someone else to do the welding)...

The idea is to weld an end cap onto a heavy base, screw a length of threaded pipe into that, then use another end cap on top with a hole drilled into it. The bolt on the bracket will then pass through this hole (the brackets have the 3/4"-to-bolt adapter fitted because they also have the wall bracket parts).

So, my question is - does anyone have the measurements of the ST-1 bases?

It probably doesn't matter too much as long as the bases are heavy and are at least 12" long and 10" wide, but I'd rather use the original measurements if anyone has the ST-1's? (it's hard to tell from the photos).

Thanks
OzOnE.

Hi guy´s should i buy the CS 150 or cs 29-35 for the best surr sound.....

im thinking one fires upwards + and 6.5 driver in the bottom of the speaker and the ohter fires front , so maby they differ in sound too....

i have the k4- onkyo 905 combo now....

Henrik

Hi,

I might have the dimensions in one of my files. But I seem to recall working on it near the end of M&K..........and because of my infamous filing methods............it was probably on my desk. Which means that it may very well be long gone in the trash.

But all is not lost - they were approximately 2" high, 12 or 13" wide, and about 15" deep. But here is what I would do: go to the hardware store and get some pipe flanges where the threaded pipe goes into a central nipple and the flange forms a flat face perpendicular to the pipe axis. Look for the flange with the four screw holes in the flange. Now, get some sand and measure it's density. Then make a base the size of a homeplate in American baseball, maybe 2 to 3" in height and size it so you get about 50 to 60 pounds once you put the sand in. I would design it so that the sand goes in from the top front. Mount the flanges at the rear point, place in position, load with sand and attach covers. Now you can screw in your pipes, and you're good to go.

We were actually looking at something like this, but the iron base was pretty much done and not screaming for change.

Hope this helps. I'll look for the file, though and post if I find it.

To all, sorry for being away so long, but it's been a long and crazy year and some......it looks like you survived my semi-absence (Big Thanks, Big Pines!). And I'm sorry to have disappeared so thoroughly.

Best,

Chris


PS And yes, I DID read each and every post from about page 14 where I left you guys to fend for yourselves! If there are any old open issues, pm me. Some of the stuff was fairly correct.....except: Peerless became DST, then Tymphany, then Tymphany went forward on the DST desire to move Peerless production to China. M&K then went with a DIFFERENT Peerless, Peerless of India. Peerless of India used to own all of Peerless, purchased the first time Peerless went up on the market block, then sold the Danish end to the bank. The Indian owner kept his plant in India and made the name change to Peerless of India. They had a lot of similar tools, so it was an easier transition for M&K to use Peerless of India tweeters.

No wonder I was confused! Unbelievable...

Mike

I can get dimensions from my bases but Chris's suggestion and approx dimensions are pretty good.

How did all the changes in ownership affect parts supply? Were all KK owned M&K speakers (150's in particular) made with the same parts or different variations over the years?

Are specific lines of M&K speakers slightly different from one year to the next because of parts supplied by changes in ownership or plants being moved, etc?

I've got to say: I'm always a little nervous about my speakers developing a problem. How would I ever get original parts? Ebay? They are under warranty with the new ownership but I'd be getting their new parts and mixing and matching parts. Not a very appealing proposition.

If your using clean amplification what would normally cause a breakdown in an M&K speaker?

Having had lots of conversation with Soundoctor Barry Ober my impression is that there was a hole lot of changes even with the old M&K Sound speakers. Chris probably can elaborate this, as he is the expert.

Take for examlpe the old transmission line tweeter, to my knowlegde there was at least 9 different models of this one, long pipe, short pipe, 8 ohms, 4 ohms and so on.

MK Sound does not use transmission line tweeters in there S-150 avalible now, but they will in the professional line 1611p and 2510p, AND the new XXX-series.

/Chuck

I'm asking about the old M&K speakers. I know the new mksound speakers are using different parts.

I know the old M&K speakers we all own went throught many design changes over the years. IE - moving tweeters from outside to inside, adding pro x-over, changing foam between tweeters etc.....even upgrading a line to MKII

I remember being told when the SS-150's were upgraded to MKII and the only difference was the side firing drivers were now Kevlar. No difference in SQ just a better made driver for side firing?

I'm asking about different parts being used because a supplier moved or changed ownership. IE - changing to a different driver or x-over in say the 150 line from one year to the next. Something that would change SQ. Maybe they did change parts but they were so small it didn't change SQ so why bother telling anyone?

Chris can give you all the specifics but yes, when Peerless of India was being used for the tweeters, they created a new model that replaced the Tymphany tweeters. They looked similar but Chris said they sounded different and I trust him on that.

I have dissected enough S-150s to know they indeed had different parts over the years.

Mike

Interesting!

I'm curious because my matched FL/FR S-150's are older than my S-150C. The FL/FR have Jefferson address on back plate but Deering on the sticker with the serial #. The S-150C is from Eaton and has the single/stacked switchs with small foam between tweeters. I wonder if they use very different parts. I can't tell a difference in SQ but I wonder anyway. Can you tell I'm bored at work today?

M&K went from KK's garage to Jefferson to Deering to Eaton, right?

I have the original version SS-150's BTW. Were the side firing drivers the only difference between the SS-150 and MKII version?

Everything still works great. I hope I never need to worry about replacement parts.

I am looking for a little distraction too.

They don't use *VERY* different parts but they are likely different. Your L/R mains probably have three Z-10 8 ohms in them (definitely Danish made). The center tweeter in the L/R mains may be 4 ohm - it depends on when they were made. Since your center has the professional crossover, it likely has two 8 ohm Z-11's on the outside and a professional Z-16 transmission line 4 ohm center tweeter. The exact models would probably depend on when the speaker was made. Chris may be able to tell based on the description you gave of the markings on the labels/SNs.


I think that is correct.


I also believe that is correct.


I know the feeling. One of my MPS-1611Ps just developed an intermittent electrical buzz and I am not sure what to do. I am really not keen on taking it to the new MK Sound because the original parts are no longer available.

Mike

Here is question:

If the likelyhood of my S-150's, and probably others as well, of having different types of mix matched tweeters is pretty good right now, would it really be a big deal to use the current tweeters being used by the new mksound? Is it a question of the unknown quality of these tweeters and not the fact you would be using different tweeters?

I spoke with Chris Minto about two months before mksound launched at ABT. He told me if one of my tweeters died and I replaced with new mksound tweeters it wouldn't be a big deal if it were one of the outside tweeters. He did say if it was a center tweeter I might want to replace the other center tweeters in other speakers as well.

ST-1 base dimesions:

weigh 52 lBS each

12" W

2" H - this is including the feet of the base.

the front is curved so the depth from the back to the front corner is 11 1/2" and the depth from the back to the front curve is 13".

pipe thread is 3/4

Hi Chris,

I have an old MX70-b subwoofer with one damaged driver. I have searched for a replacement but I only seem to be able to find the 4ohm 8" driver. Do you have any idea where I might find an original 8ohm 8" driver?

Or do you have any good alternative suggestions that I might be able to use?

Thanks

Hehehehe...I'l let Chris take a crack at this too but I'll tell you my thoughts...no way would I mix and match the new MK Sound tweeters with the old M&K tweeters in the same cabinet. You are exactly right, at this point the new tweeters are an unknown. I'll bet they sound different too - even if it is just subtle. You and I may not be able to hear a difference but I wouldn't do it anyway. Besides, the new tweeters are visibly different so it would look awful.

If I *HAD* to replace tweeters with the new ones, I would do it all the way around (and I would avoid that if possible) but that is just me.

I would agree the center tweeter would be more sensitive to change. I see why Chris Minto would have mentioned that.

Just my two cents.

Mike

I like old M-K THX 150 LCR,The new SS150 was changed such as carbinet and I did not lke the sound of this SS150,sometimes I thought where the surround.May be I used Klipsch RS-62 which is bigger and horn speaker so the sound is more discrete and vivid than new MK SS-150.I GUESS.

By changes in owners, and then KK M&K, I assume you mean through the Jonas and Dr. Field years through to the early 2000's. As far as I could tell, it was pretty smooth. Although in some models back around '90 and before, Vifa tweeters were used, Peerless was on board the whole time. The Z-10's and later Z-11's and Z-15's and later Z-16's were all Peerless of Denmark. The tweeters back in the S-1A were also Peerless (early K010DT's). The Z-17 was from Peerless of Denmark only at M&K.

It wasn't until the period between 2003 to 2007 that supply changes were made. Mainly they were because DST and then Tymphany wanted to move the parts to China, but the samples didn't match our Danish-made standards from Peerless. Also, due to a lot of cost issues with DST, the price couldn't come down for the parts when they went to China. We felt they should, so we looked elsewhere.

We found a great source for the 5-1/4"'s in China - the part was actually slightly better than the Peerless part, this was the Z53. And we got some help from an old company friend, Peerless of India, to make tweeters. I dubbed these the Z-16A and Z-11A.

Systems stayed very constant due to our quality standards. But there were very subtle changes when we changed a driver - they could never be exact due to local material availability, different processes and all. But we worked hard to make them so that any difference could only be seen in a measurement, but you couldn't hear.

When I run into worried M&K owners who wonder about spare parts, I tell them to buy another one of what they have. Then you have spares on everything. Just make sure it works, first!

And if you're amplification is clean (no HF oscillations to fry tweeters), basically back off the volume a little. If you want to rock out, get something that is for that. You don't have to pamper them, but as Pat Snider used ta say "If it sounds bad, turn it DOWN!"

Chris

Oh yeah, and we did shift woofer companies a few times while I was there. Modern companies make more rigorous demands on their suppliers and we started to find that those we had didn't all have a modern approach. So we moved a couple times there.

Bear in mind, every time we changed a supplier, we had our best ears (always including Ken's) in on the approval. Nothing was approved unless it was unanimous.

As for the various tweeters, it was a pretty logical set - everything was available in 4 ohm and 8 ohm, and shielded (bucking magnet) and non-shielded. The Z-10 and later the upgraded Z-11 were the closed back tweeter used for consumer product, and the Z-15 (upgraded later to the Z-16) were the vented-pole tweeter primarily used for professional models and high-end consumer.

Then, depending on usage, there were different length transmission lines for the Z-15/Z-16. Longest was for the S-5000. It had to exit the rear of the cabinet. Then those for the S-1 models. The shortest arrived when some thorough testing showed that the back of the line could be sealed and left in the cabinet. This was the form that it took in the professional and high-end consumer models.

When we brought out the MP-150, I eclipsed this one though, by using some dense acoustical foam in the line instead of dacron. This resulted in a pipe only 1/2" long, as needed. The response was identical to the longer line, but would fit into the MP's tight space.

Chris

Well, we did have to document it, and when working with service techs we had to have some reminders to put in the new part in the right models. So we "Mk II"-ed them, and so forth.

The side driver on the tripoles actually went from polypropylene to paper to kevlar over the years. Each time was an improvement in HF range. But since we're talking up around 15kHz, it's impossible to hear in normal usage, due to the angle relative to the listener as well as the dipole configuration. You could only hear it if you listened to the sides directly, comparing them with music and other signal sources........which we did. The Kevlar worked like a charm - just extended the HF response with absolutely no change anywhere else, and the HF was smooth, too.

And yes, we incorporated data from the field (tweeter movement), parts commonality (add switches to S-150 - used 2510 xo), (changing foam) like anyone else would.

But we didn't change crossovers year to year, or anything that would change performance willy-nilly. The most striking difference one might find is sometimes an S-150 has woofers with black metal cans (Z50 MK TVC 8), and sometimes not (Z50 MK TV 8). This is visually very different, but acoustically not at all. They worked the same acoustically, but had different stray magnetic fields. We judged in this time of plasma and LCD tv's that was not so big a deal, but were very careful who we sold those to.

You really shouldn't worry that there's some unearthly latent problem lurking in your speakers. They were all very good.

Chris

And yes, the Peerless of India tweeters were audibly different to me. But I'm an odd bird. I hear something's wrong clear across the room, while "normal" people in front of it say "Wha?!?!?!?!? Sounds fine to me!"

But with them, we sold them in matched sets. We did not allow them to mix with the Peerless of Denmark tweeters. So if you bought new from M&K, or a dealer, you're ok. But if you bought from eBay after the auction, welllllllll............there's only one way to tell.

Ok, two. If you REALLY have to know, and have all kinds of hyper-energy........like a HUGE TREE I know.............then pm me. But consider first if you are really having any problem or noticing differences with your systems. If not, don't worry about it. It seems like most on this thread have had their M&K's for some time, and are familiar with other earlier models. Since nobody is asking if THEIR speakers sound ok, I'd say everyone has Danish-made tweeters.

Chris

SVPhile, without the serial number book, I couldn't tell you when your FL and FR were made. When did you buy them? Prior to about '99, they certainly had the either the triple Z-10 or dual Z-10/central Z-15 combo (I don't know when the center tweeter went to vented pole). The triple Z-10 was a hold-over from the S-100B into the upgraded S-150/MPS-150 (yes, the 2510 was originally called an MPS-150). After 2000, they would get the Z-11's outboard and the Z-16 at center.

Unfortunately, even at Deering, we were still using some badging that showed Jefferson, so don't worry about the address. More important is the acquisition era.

Yes, the only difference to the SS-150 going to MkII was the kevlar cone material for the side full-ranges. We wanted to track the change carefully, so we changed the name. No other changes were made, and the MkII has about 1500 Hz more top end on the sides.

Oh, and yes - progression of M&K site is correct, except for a short while, I heard it was in Jonas Miller's shop (I think when there was only one employee...), and Eton had no "a" in it.

Ken would know this history best, though, so I bow to his greater knowledge there if he visits again.

Chris

Okay, NOW you've asked the big question!

The answer is yes, if you guys krank the Rammstein a leetle too loud, or that detuned Celtic Frost guitar suddenly has more distortion, or you played Bass Computer at theater levels, well...........

first, DO I NEED TO YELL?????

(just kidding) You CAN use the MKSound parts, as in the new guys. BUT, if I were you, I would replace them ALL at that point. My understanding is that the crossovers are staying the same. The 5-1/4" woofers are the good ones from China. The tweeters do have different materials in the diaphragm, so they are slightly different. But because of this difference, you should buy a complete set of tweeters. Meaning, minimum buy a whole set for that speaker. Better is buy tweeters for all tweeters in that part of the system (BOTH L/R's, ALL of LCR's, or all rear surrounds or all side surrounds or all surrounds). Best is buy a tweeter set for ALL of your speakers in the rig.

You can do more direct replacements on woofers (i.e., one for one), but being a purist, I would get those too. Then keep the old Danish ones for spare. Trade 'em here to your hurtin' buds. Or sell 'em on eBay. But keep a few for replacement so you don't go down again.

Chris

JDC115,

Did you try emailing Asger Bak at mksoundsystem.com? They might still be using the 8 ohm woofer. They also might possess stock that they aren't using.

Otherwise, keep searching eBay.

Lastly, I might be able to come up with something that would work but let's take that to pm.

Chris

One last thing on the new tweeters.

Yes, they have four screws like the Z-17, this is a better way of attaching the faceplate than the old clips. More reliable, repeatable, and it makes production have less fallout, so the product is better and keeps cost down.

Yes, it has different material for the diaphragm, so it's not identical, BUT it is very close. Put my statements in perspective - I'm a perfectionist with sharp ears. I have a hard time tuning conversations out. Mosquitoes in the bedroom drive me NUTS!!!! So the subtle differences I refer to are not subtle to me. But you, very likely, will deem them identical. So don't worry so much.

Asger sold M&K for a long time, and was very fond of some of the models (oddly...hmmm...the ones he's selling now!). Most of the current parts are, to my understanding, the same as used before. Chris Minto has very good ears. And I believe a very dear friend of mine is riding herd on the drivers.

So I think you'll find that the same commitment to quality is there. The sound may not be perfectly identical to old, but it'll be much closer than anything else you could find.

Chris

Butsu, it's all good!

I like the surrounds to be unidentifiable. I run the Citation 7.3's that I did at Harman with the Intergalactic Sales VP at Triad (not to mention our Official Rental Car Ace Pilot, but that's another story). But lots of people like direct radiators, and I'm sure the RS-62's are giving you the best of both worlds - a dipole that is more vivid to you.

If it works for you, great. Not all M&K's were loved by all, but you can see the 150 was pretty much legendary.

Chris

Chris-
Good to have you back. Your knowledge and information is great to have for all us M&K freaks. A quick question while you're on the subject. I have some late model ss-500's which have Z20MK tweeters. I've not seen these in any other units. Even your buddy "HUGE TREE" wasn't familiar with them. Where did they fit in? Are they the same as something else, just relabeled? I need a diaphragm (pushed in) or complete unit. What other would be a suitable replacement? Also,
I'm still looking for some Sanyo subs. Any idea of a possible source other than E-Bay, which I check often? Thanks in advance, Leif

I'll second that.

This write up about the tweeters and woofers in the different models is very appreciated, thanks Chris.

/Chuck

Great, forever hereafter I will be referred to as "HUGE TREE!" Curses Chris...I'll get you for this if it's the last thing I do!!!

Thanks for the replies Chris. Great stuff!

I'll probably never know for sure what is inside my FL/FR S-150's. While I do have a certain degree of hyper-energy like the "Huge Tree", I do not have the stones to go opening up my perfectly fine M&K's thank you.

I didn't buy them anywhere near 99'. I think it is a pretty safe assumption they came from Deering, but I bought them in 05' and I qualify for the new mksound warranty.

My system is all over the place:

I had the 750's for a time. In 05' a local dealer was having financial issues and M&K was having issues with supplying dealers. My local dealer was in the process of dropping M&K from their line and a I bought up just about everything they had. They claimed the FL/FR S-150's were open boxed to sell but hadn't been on the floor long. Take that for what it is worth. They looked great so I sold my 750 system and never looked back. I bought 4 S-150C/AC's. I kept the brand new boxed one for myself and sold off the rest. Hence, the newer design S-150C in my system. I sure wish I would have kept one for spare parts now. I also bought their SS-150's (same story as FL/FR S-150's so older version) and a brand new MX-150MKII.

I got in contact with Magnolia in California not to long after. They were dropping M&K also. However, M&K hadn't officially announced closing. I bought a ton of stuff from them. S-150's, very rare discontinued ST series stands (kept some/sold some), MX-350SFX (sold my MX-150MKII and kept the SFX for myself, NICE!) You know, I sold many different M&K products to people all over the world. It was a cool experience to put together a really nice M&K system for myself at a very minimal cost and see what a following M&K had around the globe.

Anyway...a pair of S-150's I got from Magnolia were badly damaged in shipping (parts not cabinets). They were a really new production run from Eton that had Danish made tweeters. M&K was great. I sent them back to be rebuilt and they sent them back to me days before they announced closing. I decided not to keep those for myself and sold them to a guy in Hong Kong.

I'm 32 and I've had M&K's in my system since high school. I've never had to replace a defective part yet, and I hope I never have to cross that bridge. I know some of you guys just felt real old. Burn!