Official MK - Miller & Kreisel Thread?!? - Page 51

I don't know of a difference but there may in fact be some small difference.

Mike

Mike, (Big Pines)
Hey, I don't want to knock your work but I'm wondering why you didn't refinish the original subwoofer grille with the same material as the new one you built? I know the M&K speaker grille is difficult if not impossible to come by, but why not just continue both pieces in the darker black? I can't imagine with a sub-woofer there would be any acoustical advantages. Or looking closer is it not speaker grille, and simply a piece of wood you used to fill-in? If that's so, wrapping your fill-in with the original grille would look more consistent. Once again, what you did looks good from a functional stand point my eyes were just drawn to the color changes between the original fabric and cabinet colors.
Ryan

I used the original speaker grill with the original cloth. The problem is there is an amp hole in the front of the cabinet that has to be filled in somehow. If you look at a photo of an actual production backfire sub, you will see the amp I am talking about. Unfortunately none of the available amps fit that hole so it must be filled. I choose black acrylic because it looked nice. There is no change in color. That must just be the flash causing that. It looks like Deep Discount used some other material to fill the hole. One way or another, it has to be filled. I agree it would look best to construct a new grill that covers the entire front of the cabinet but that would require a lot more work and money. You would have to seal the hole flush, refinish/paint the entire cabinet and then construct a new grill that would fit. That is just not practical for most people.

-EDIT- Oh, and the original fabric is no longer in production so if you wanted to make a new grill or wrap the fill material in cloth, you would have to scrap the M&K cloth and go with something completely different. Unfortunately, I haven't found anything I like more than the original cloth.

Mike

Okay, makes sense. I was unfamiliar with the hole you were describing, this wasn't a subwoofer I was too familiar with. Thanks for not taking offense to my comments and informing me of what started your solution process.
Ryan

The 2510P uses 3 Z16 transmission line tweeters, one 4 ohm, two 8 ohm. The S-150P only has one 4 ohm Z16, the two 8 ohm drivers are Z11 non-transmission line tweeters.

 

EDIT*** immortal sound messaged me the other day after asking Ken (Kriesel) about this... as I mention above and elsewhere... my info at the time was derived from paperwork from VIFA (not M&K)... it must have gotten messed up somewhere between the two companies (or between VIFA and my old company). Anyways, Ken is now "on record" as stating that both powered versions (S-150P & MPS-2510P) are identical with all 3 tweeters being Z16 transmission line versions of the tweeter, not as I've stated above. So in review, this would mean that all passive versions (150 or 2510) would have one (center) Z16 transmission line and two (top & bottom) Z11 non-transmission line tweeters (resistance ratings are correct as stated and explained). While both powered versions use only Z16 transmission line tweeters (ohm ratings as previously stated). (sorry about the confusion... just going from what documentation I had at the time; this does make sense though)

 

Yes, I liked the one I built too, I like the smoked plexi look but I don't think I can cut it with a water jet like the metal face plate I'm doing. The 5100 had 2 Vifa P/N P830769 (17037); at least for a time according to paperwork I have. I'm considering getting more from Vifa, but of course they won't have the M&K logo on them. I don't know the exact difference between the 17035 and the 17037, could be just the manufacturer or an actual design change. I don't think the 17035's that Mavin has came from Vifa originally; The 17035's should have enough power handling to work with a 400 watt amp (but I haven't tried it yet). How much difference in interest would people have in the different options I have for building these subs?

1- MX-2500 hybrid with 17035's with M&K logo

2- MX-2500 hybrid with 17037's from Vifa with no logo

3- MX-2500 hybrid with the Hamster Audio driver

Thanks for the input...

David

p.s. I fixed the gasket links today, sorry about that...

Edited by greensub - 8/5/12 at 10:13am

No offense taken. The idea of wrapping the grill material around the material that closes the hole, is a great idea. If it was available, I would certainly try it!

Mike

I did not know that. That is strange since the amp must be the same I would think and I remember Chris telling me the amp is what dictated the use of three transmission line tweeters. It would be interesting to hear his comments on that.


Fair enough. Yes, you need special tools to work with acrylic and that is why it ended up being pretty expensive for me (I had someone else do the work). I think it was around $30 for that little piece!


Will they actually sell you the same driver without the logo? That would be interesting.


There are a couple of differences. First, the 17037 is a 4 ohm driver so you need an amp that has two 4 ohm channels or is stable to 2 ohms unless you want to run it in 8 ohms which will lower the output. Second, the 17037 has a rubber surround and lower Qms and BL. That being said, both drivers have a nearly identical in-box frequency response. Either driver would be fine in the 2500 cabinet with a 400 watt amp but pushing the 17035 in the 5100 cabinet with a large amp could push the driver past it's mechanical limit. Both drivers benefit from the larger cabinet size as long as they are not pushed too far. It isn't a thermal power handling issue as much as it is a physical limitation of excursion.

If you do get some 17037s without the M&K logo, I may be interested in buying some raw drivers from you.

Mike

OK guys, I need some input.

I'm looking at the S-150's/MPS-2150's on ebay.

they are all designated as left channels. two of the mps2150 have seq serial #'s. does this sound right? They all have flat/straight fronts/faces like an s-150c with the exception of a clear ac.

would these be a huge improvement over the passive versions?

I wouldn't say they would be a HUGE improvement but they should sound better. They should actually sound quite similar but slightly better. My experience is that the powered monitors had a cleaner sound than the passives. The MPS-2510Ps should sound the best.

Mike

my take also. What about them all being left channels? none of them are actually toed in like my current s-150 left channel.

No, it doesn't sound right, but there's only one explanation I can think of. The S-150s have the Single/Stacked switch which changes vertical direction. If someone ordered these speakers knowing they would be in a stacked application than maybe that's why they would have sequential numbers. But I'm skeptical, the serial # plate is different than my S-150s and if anyone recognizes my user name from Audiogon/eBay I've sold several hundred M&K speakers (but never active ones). I know how much Ken and the engineers at M&K spent fine tuning every single speaker that was made, I just would never invest in something someone else slapped together from liquidation parts.

I've been told they were installed by magnolia hifi in 01' with receipt. I was thinking they are just square baffle cabinets that can be used as any channel. It could be designated as a left but really used as any. I don't know a lot about the professional powered versions. I was hoping someone more knowledgable than me would chim in.

Something is fishy with this listing of S-150P speakers on eBay. First the front says M&K Professional, and all the M&K Professional speakers are "MPS" not "S" series. Second the tweeters are on the same side of each cabinet, that's not right. The serial # on the back looks akward to me. And finally one speaker has female speaker grille plugs and the other speaker has the fuzzy side of velcro with no speaker grille female plugs. There's no way these speakers were built sequentially off the same production line.

a big + 1

i noticed the same thing with respect to the tweeters and the grill holes. i'm not so sure about the professional logo. M&K would do some weird things with cabinets.

I have been in contact with the seller and the serial #'s are not sequential on the 150p's. who knows?

I looked up the company he claims went out of buisness and it seems legit. what he sells and feedback seem to back-up what he is selling and why. however, something doesn't seem right. i get the feeling magnolia hifi out of oregon might have pulled a fast one on the company.

the mps versions have sequential #'s but are both FL. maybe the FR's were the #'s before and after the two FL's. i don't know!

i would have to change my stands or find the brace that went on the st tilts. no easy task. There is one bucket missing for the grill peg on one of the mps-2150's. where did it go? came loose when mag took grill off? not a likely story!

wow! they just sold for $$$$. i hope the guy that won knows what he is doing.

i feel i can resign from bidding on the pro versions. too many intangables.

Can anyone tell I want the powered 150's. thats OK. I really want the mps-2150pk's anyway.

Thanks for the replies Mike and smitty8000

Does anyone know what tweeters are in the S-250's? Also looking at 2510P's on Ebay. Would they have comparable or better sound quality then passive S-250's in a medium size room? I own S-250's but have always been interested in active speakers since my days with Mackie 824's.

Does anyone know the driver specs for the S-150's (Part# and Ohm rating)?

TenHt, I've been wanting S-250s for ever, if you're willing to sell them please pm or reply to me. Thanks.


I'm absolutely shocked at what those first set of speakers sold for on eBay. I don't know what the tweeter is for the S-250, but I think it's identical to the S-150 for that same year of manufacture. The S-250 only added side speakers.

David,
I've noticed on your website you've made a mistake with the placement of the foam pieces on the S-150/2510 speakers. There is not suppose to be any foam on the middle tweeter. There should be four foam pieces total, but you have added 6 to your speakers. If you're going to tell me that once upon a time there was a single piece of foam that was twice as thick you would be correct, however those tweeters (logos) were turned 90 degrees and would have been made with components and crossovers that couldn't have been purchased at the bankruptcy auction. I know you're trying to make as genuine a product as possible so I hope this helps.
Ryan
This is the correct setup below.

I was suprised the S150p's and 2510p's went for so much as well. A lot more then I was willing to spend. I'll certainly give you a holler if I decide to part with the S250's.

Still looking for the specs on the Tweeters in the S250's if anyone knows.

my fl/fr s-150's have larger foam. my center s-150 has 4 smaller foam pieces. all three speakers tweeters (logos) are turned 90 degrees. just bought some foam pieces from David (Deep Surplus) as replacements if/when needed.

FYI:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/two-c...-speakers.html

Greensub, thank you for finding a way for us to get our hands on genuine M&K foam for a reasonable price. I noticed some ebay auctions just ended in which some M&K THX logos sold for about $35 a piece. That tells me that there may be a bit of an opportunity if you find any at a reasonable price. Being that there may be trademark issues (not sure) selling these may not be possible. If you ever do, please put me down for 4, well if less than $35 each .

Thanks for the info Mike, I really needed to know they are 2 ohm drivers; I probably won't be getting any of them in that case, I don't want to run series if I don't have too.


Actually, those female grill guides come out really easy, I've pulled a lot of cabs off a pallet and had the guides pop out the first time I removed the grill.


According to some paperwork I got from Vifa the S-150's take:
Tweeter 1: P814869 (17270) which is the Z16 MK 4 ohm trans. line tweeter.
Tweeter 2&3: P811223 (17291) which is the Z11 MK 8 ohm non-trans. line.
Woofers: P831898 (17390) which is the Z50 MK TV, 8 ohm 5.25" woofer

The powered versions took a P830233 (17392) no Z number on driver, it's the same 8 ohm woofer with a shielding can over the bucking magnets. I got these numbers from Vifa not M&K, from a time when M&K was using Vifa, when they were still building in denmark. Hope this helps...


I'm think your right, I haven't laid my hands on a pair but I think the S-250 is the S-150 with the 4 surround drivers (KG10MD05-04 [17133]) and the MPS-2525 is the MPS-2510 with the same 4 surround drivers. If anybody has anymore info on the surround drivers I'd like to know, I know that P/N fits physically but it's listed as the surround for the SS550, I wonder if the impedance is the same for the 2525/S-250 model. Thanks,


Thanks for the info... I'd seen both ways and just decided on the one, I'll probably go to 4 pieces, although I am building these up with the older drivers from Vifa (not the bankruptcy auction) so component wise I might be consistent. I have both new and old crossovers, the only difference I can find is a difference in manufacturers, all the values are the same. They used to use Bennic and Yageo for caps and resistors, I think they used to wind their own coils. The new ones are all marked Elytone, which is a Chinese company they outsourced to for crossover manufacture.

Thanks for the info everyone, hopefully I can help in return also.

David (Deep Surplus)

p.s. it looks like I'm going to have a lot more components for sale than I originally anticipated (tweeters/ woofers/ cabinets), I'll keep you posted.

Question for the SS-150 owners out there.

I recently acquired a set of SS-150’s but unfortunately they do not have consecutive serial numbers. In fact, upon further inspection they appear to be from different eras. One has the speaker bracket mounting hole just above the speaker connections and the other has it at the top of the cabinet.

My question is this, is there a way to indentify which way they should face without the arrow on the back? Only one of the SS-150’s has the directional arrow. I just want to make sure they are not both left channels for example.

Thanks David! That's a big help. I've been trying to dig up that information for a while now.

Look forward to hearing about the additional components too!

I could use a pair of Z16 tweeters if anybody has any that they need to get rid of.

Thanks,

John

Sorry, I think I confused you. They are 4 ohm drivers but if you are building a dual driver sub, you end up with a 2 ohm or 8 ohm load depending on how they are wired. If you are building a single driver sub, go for it. 4 ohms would be just about perfect for most amps!

Mike

OK, I just purchased a couple of SW-150's today to turn my 5.1 system to a 7.1 system.

Now I need to get a two channel amp. I'm fond of the Parasoun Halo line, but I need to know how many watts these SW-150's require.

The specs for the SW-150's are as follows:

• Impedance: 4 ohms
• Sensitivity: 2.83V @1m = 92dB

I am looking at the following two amps:

• Parasound Halo A 21: 400 watts RMS x 2, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 4 Ω, all channels driven
• Parasound Halo A 23: 225 watts RMS x 2, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 4 Ω, both channels driven

So, the question becomes, do I need 400 or 225 watts per SW-150?

Also, since all 5 of my 5.1 speakers are powered (S-150P's), I need a good source for speaker cable from the amp to each speaker. I'd like to run it under carpet if possible, so the flatter the better (without sacrificing sound quality.) Thoughts?

Yep, I misread that one, I doubt I will get them though, I don't have that many M&K amps left and I'd rather build the push pull subs than the VX-1250's, people seem to want them more also.

David

The A23 is plenty of power. Your self powered speakers put out less power than the A23 so unless you were powering a large floor standing speaker the A21 is just way more than necessary. Not to mention if you're looking used the A21 is three times more expensive.
I like www.bluejeanscable.com for all of my cables/wires etc. If you're connecting your speakers to the surround backs than you are going to want a 10-12 gauge wire. This is thick and necessary for the distance you'll be covering. That would be a hard size to find in a flat cable, I don't think you would find over 14 gauge in a flat wire. Why run the cable underneath the carpet? What obstacles do you face in your room that suggest this method?
If you have a concrete slab or a flat roof, I would run under base boards, through HVAC ducting or add crown molding to the room and run a 1/2"- 1" conduit behind the moldings. Size would depend on your wire thickness and crown profile depth.
Good luck,
Ryan