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LFE, subwoofers and interconnects explained - Page 4

post #91 of 777
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Theoretically, no. But nothing else currently available remotely in the price range I'm considering has i.Link, so it's as good as being Pioneer proprietary, in practice.

Although I'd like to leave open the door to future expansion, maybe with higher-end kit.

Interesting that the Yamaha 2500 had it. The 2700 doesn't. Which means that the 2700 is a downgrade - it can no longer output SACD digitally. Idiots.

How to knock yourself off a purchasing shortlist in one easy step.

The Yamaha S2500 is still for sale at online retailers -- if you don't mind going the unauthorized route, it can be had for around $400 (or less if you buy a refurb unit).

It's too bad Pioneer never released a low-priced uniplayer that had ilink.
post #92 of 777
Thread Starter 
Can't see it in many places here in England. And the few that have it are pricing it at £695 (about $1350, at current exchange rates). Not much of a bargain, but about the same as the 2700

Interestingly, one UK seller of the 2700 says "HDMI v1.2a allows SACD playback through HDMI". Don't think that's right, unless they know something we don't...
post #93 of 777
HDMI 1.2 spec does permit DSD passage digitally. That's one of its new features over 1.1. I don't know of any player/receiver combo that's actually implemented that feature though.
post #94 of 777
Thread Starter 
Sorry, that wasn't clear, was it? I meant that was listed as one of the features of the DVD-S2700.

The Marantz SR7001/SR8001 and Yamaha RX-V1700/V2700 support DSD over HDMI.

Although one US owner here has PM'ed me to say his RX-V?700 came with a little note saying the DSD decoder wasn't fitted...
post #95 of 777
Let's juts put it this way shall we. If you had a few audio mixers on hand and where to re-plug the outputs from the AVR or AVP into the mixers inputs and then route them to the separate amplifiers, real easy mind you real easy

Next set the levels up with a sine wave tone around 100Hz and adjust each output using the faders on the mixers and set each channel at -20db while keeping the fader at 0db on the AVR AVP. After you have set the levels play a few soundtracks like Star Wars Episode 2: Attack of the Clones and watch the levels on the opening of the film dance around.

Mind you, you will need at least x6 audio mixers one for the stereo left and right, one for the centre and LFE.1 and one for the surrounds. Like I said it's real easy to set-up.

With this rather simple and affordable technique you can keep an eye on the output levels VS the amplifiers VS the loudspeakers.
post #96 of 777
Any more work on the yamahas? I see they are still orange...

Thanks,
Chris
post #97 of 777
After reading tons of posts about the LFE issue, it is hard for me to beleive that all of these receivers face the same issue. Is it possible that the issue is not with the receivers but the component that is passing PCM feeds? It would seem that the HD DVD player may be the culprit as most everyone's issue is beign reported with these players when decoding PCM. The HD DVD players are also responsible for an overall volume decrease as well when decoding 96khz. Some have reported no LFE issue with the PS3 when decoding PCM. Why is their a difference between receivers properly passing the LFE channel between HD DVD players and the PS3?
post #98 of 777
Why is it hard for you to believe? It makes perfect sense. And it's not just occurring with HD-DVD players, it's happening with my Panasonic BluRay as well. And Pioneer has confirmed that this is an actual problem and are supposedly working on a firmware fix.
post #99 of 777
Quote:


After reading tons of posts about the LFE issue, it is hard for me to beleive that all of these receivers face the same issue. Is it possible that the issue is not with the receivers but the component that is passing PCM feeds? It would seem that the HD DVD player may be the culprit as most everyone's issue is beign reported with these players when decoding PCM. The HD DVD players are also responsible for an overall volume decrease as well when decoding 96khz. Some have reported no LFE issue with the PS3 when decoding PCM. Why is their a difference between receivers properly passing the LFE channel between HD DVD players and the PS3?

It affects all LFE LPCM output through HDMI, regardless of the source. My Sony PS3, Toshiba A1, and Samsung BD player (before I returned it) all exhibit this problem with my Panasonic (XR57) and Pioneer HDMI receivers. It doesn't just impact Blu-ray and HD-DVD; it also affects the mulitchannel from DVD-A and SACD output through HDMI on DVD players.

Keep in mind that most of the HDMI receivers on the market today were designed well before there were any HD-DVD or Blu-ray players out in the wild. At the time these receivers were designed, we didn't have DVD players with HDMI audio output for SACD / DVD-A either.

The upcoming 2007 models will be the first receivers designed after HD-DVD and Blu-ray players actually became available.
post #100 of 777
"After reading tons of posts about the LFE issue, it is hard for me to beleive that all of these receivers face the same issue."


According to this from page 1, the Denon 4306 does properly boost LFE. Correct?


Receivers boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB
Onkyo TX-NR1000, TX-NR5000E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD, DTS and AAC
Onkyo TX-SR804E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; unified setting for PCM, DD and DTS
Denon AVR-2307CI, AVR-2807, AVR-3806, AVR-4306, AVR-4806CI(AVC-A11XVA): can set +10dB or 0dB; per-surround mode setting(?) - should allow separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD and DTS
Denon AVR-4806(AVC-A11XV): LFE control only affects DD and DTS, but PCM/DSD LFE gain is undocumentedly linked to analogue SW Level setting; reports suggest the default +15dB on SW Level may give +10dB on PCM LFE
Panasonic SA-XR700: no option, but appears to get it right
Yamaha RX-V1700/RX-V2700: No option. Latest test suggests it is okay, but earlier reports suggested otherwise. Still not totally sure
post #101 of 777
KMO, or anybody else, know if the LFE bug exists on the Pio VSX-81TXV? Or is it just on the 82's and 84's? I don't have my HD-A2 yet so I can't confirm.

Thanks.
post #102 of 777
Mobius,

It exists on all Pioneer receivers. Pioneer has reportedly told some that they will issue a firmware update to address the issue on certain 2006 models. They've also fixed / addressed the issue on the 2007 models announced next week.
post #103 of 777
Thanks for the info bfdtv.
post #104 of 777
This is a great thread with lots of great info. I've read it and am trying to grasp the issue, and would appreciate any help...

So is the consensus that a HD-DVD or Blu-ray player (NOT performing bass management with all speakers set large in the player) connected via 5.1 analog outs to a non-HDMI receiver suffer from the issue of the LFE being 10 dB too low? I also have a Sony DVD/SACD player hooked up to analog inputs, and feel the bass is fine- however this may be because for music, there is more consistant bass in the main channels (not the .1)?

In my case my receiver (Lexicon RV-8) does digitize the analog inputs and supports bass mgmt and speaker distances via the 5.1 analog inputs. Since it performs bass mgmt with all speakers set to small and 80Hz xover, I guess it is possible the receiver is applying a 10db boost to the sub analog input in the 5.1a Film mode? A question for Lexicon I guess.

I'm unsure if I am suffering from attenuated LFE or not. Blu-ray titles watched with uncompressed PCM (like 5th element, Monster House, etc) sound really good. But X-men 3: The Last Stand left me feeling the bass was lacking a bit. X-men doesn't have uncompressed PCM, but a lossless DTS track that I guess the player can currently at best decode to the core 1.5Mbps stream.

I have a the standard DVD version of DVE. If I play the speaker test tones from DVE playing through the analog inputs and then compare to the same over the optical or coax input, would that be a good way to check?

Thanks again!
post #105 of 777
My Onkyo 604 reproduced lousy LFE over HDMI and Optical. HDMI may make sense as it is PCM but according to the first post in this thread, bitstream is almost universally not a problem. My 604 also had cruddy LFE when listeneing to audio CD's which I believe are sent in PCM. Is this 10db issue to blame for what I experienced?

I tried an 804 at Circuit City and the settings are definitely different than they are with the 604 and 674. I'd buy the 804 if it wasn't $700.

Greg
post #106 of 777
After testing last night, it appears the RV-8 does apply the 10dB boost to it's analog SW input. The easiest way to tell is to use the 'RV-8 Status' on the remote, which brings up level meters on the TV for all channels. It was easy to see the LFE was reaching the max of the scale over some test scenes with LFE, regardless of using the analog ins or bitstream over the optical in.

I'm guessing most analog ins behave this way, and it's more of a problem as originally posted with the multichannel PCM over HDMI.
post #107 of 777
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Matty View Post

My 604 also had cruddy LFE when listeneing to audio CD's which I believe are sent in PCM. Is this 10db issue to blame for what I experienced?

CDs don't have an LFE track, so that's nothing to do with the LFE problem discussed here. Sounds like you've got some general problem with your bass management.
post #108 of 777
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

CDs don't have an LFE track, so that's nothing to do with the LFE problem discussed hear. Sounds like you've got some general problem with your bass management.

CD's not having an LFE track is good to point out, but I did set the crossover to 80hz and could hear something coming from the SW. Just not enough of it. The 604 is a pretty simple receiver to setup and I have been to Circuit City and Video Only and played around with them until I am certain I have tried every setting possible. I can't see that I missed a setup????

Maybe it isn't the .1 issue with this receiver, maybe it is not outputting LFE properly at all? Maybe my unit was defective? I admit the problem could still have been my fault but I have setup receivers before for myself and family member and this is the only one I couldn't get solved. I have made my mind up to get the 804 if nothing exciting debuts this week. That receiver at least has a way for me to verify the 10db thing.

Sorry for being paranoid about this topic but when I don't hear what I expect to hear, I tend to freak out. There is so much software in all electronic hardware these days that I can't help but think sometimes something gets missed. I felt bad returning a $400 receiver knowing there was a chance I had it setup wrong, but I would have felt worse keeping a unit that didn't sound right to my ears.

Greg
post #109 of 777
Your problem with bass-managed CDs suggests a fundamental calibration issue, not an LFE issue. Have you calibrated your system -- that is, used some internal or disc-written test tones to set the levels of each channel, measuring from your usual listening position? Also, have you set speaker distances?

If you have done all that correctly and still find the subwoofer isn't loud enough at your listening position, you perhaps simply prefer the sub to be louder than 'proper' level, and should just turn the sub up.

It is crucial that the measurements be done from where you usually listen, because room modes can cause bass to be overwhelming in some places in the room, and almost nonexistent in others.
post #110 of 777
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Your problem with bass-managed CDs suggests a fundamental calibration issue, not an LFE issue. Have you calibrated your system -- that is, used some internal or disc-written test tones to set the levels of each channel, measuring from your usual listening position? Also, have you set speaker distances?

If you have done all that correctly and still find the subwoofer isn't loud enough at your listening position, you perhaps simply prefer the sub to be louder than 'proper' level, and should just turn the sub up.

It is crucial that the measurements be done from where you usually listen, because room modes can cause bass to be overwhelming in some places in the room, and almost nonexistent in others.

I use the rat-shack SPL meter and have to have the sub's input turned almost all the way up as well as boost the sub level on the receiver. That got things close but the sound was real boomy, not tight and clear like I was used to getting. I know that doesn't make sense, but like I mentioned, I have set up a fair number of receivers and never had this problem. If I can get CC to price match an online retailer on the 804 I'll see if I like that one any better.

If HK would introduce an HDMI receiver that actually brought in audio I would consider one as my last two receivers have been HK's. I haven't see a change to their lineup in many months. Maybe they are due for a refresh at CES?

Greg
post #111 of 777
Could someone break this down very simple like: if I buy say the panasonic xr57 what will I be missing (what will it sound like)? I want to watch BR movies.
post #112 of 777
So basically if I own a pioneer receiver my options are to run optical, set the speakers to large and boost the lfe for pcm +8(as measured by a previous user in this thread)... or run analogue, but that defeats MCACC and doesn't work with the PS3 to well... ? Am I missing a 4th better option?
post #113 of 777
Can anyone confirm that the JVC RX-D402B will do 1080p and LPCM via hdmi with no LFE issues? And what about the Onkyo HT-S894?
post #114 of 777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Matty View Post

I use the rat-shack SPL meter and have to have the sub's input turned almost all the way up as well as boost the sub level on the receiver. That got things close but the sound was real boomy, not tight and clear like I was used to getting. I know that doesn't make sense, but like I mentioned, I have set up a fair number of receivers and never had this problem. If I can get CC to price match an online retailer on the 804 I'll see if I like that one any better.

If HK would introduce an HDMI receiver that actually brought in audio I would consider one as my last two receivers have been HK's. I haven't see a change to their lineup in many months. Maybe they are due for a refresh at CES?

Greg

To close out this situation I'll say that I am now the owner of the 804 and I have zero LFE issues. I did all the setups with the manual still in the box. LFE is much better than with the 604. I think my 604 must have been bad.

Greg
post #115 of 777
I know this is an older Model, but one of theri best at the time.

I am about to purchase a Toshiba A2 HD-DVD Player, just curious if anyone knows how the avr 3300 handles these audio issues?

Thanks
post #116 of 777
Sorry to ask such a stupid question but does this LFE problem only apply when using an HD-DVD or Blue Ray player? I'm looking to get the Onkyo 604 and for now I'm using a Panasonic S97 dvd player and all I want is Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1. I probably will be getting a HD-DVD or Blue Ray player in about a year or two, so I want to make sure my reciever will still be able to do DD and DTS 5.1 properly. Thanks is advance.
post #117 of 777
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

It affects all LFE LPCM output through HDMI, regardless of the source. My Sony PS3, Toshiba A1, and Samsung BD player (before I returned it) all exhibit this problem with my Panasonic (XR57) and Pioneer HDMI receivers. It doesn't just impact Blu-ray and HD-DVD; it also affects the mulitchannel from DVD-A and SACD output through HDMI on DVD players.

Keep in mind that most of the HDMI receivers on the market today were designed well before there were any HD-DVD or Blu-ray players out in the wild. At the time these receivers were designed, we didn't have DVD players with HDMI audio output for SACD / DVD-A either.

The upcoming 2007 models will be the first receivers designed after HD-DVD and Blu-ray players actually became available.


Hi bfdtv, would you mind telling us J6P how you deal with the low LFE problem with both your Toshiba HD DVD palyer and the PS3? Thanks much.
post #118 of 777
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb4 View Post

Sorry to ask such a stupid question but does this LFE problem only apply when using an HD-DVD or Blue Ray player? I'm looking to get the Onkyo 604 and for now I'm using a Panasonic S97 dvd player and all I want is Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1. I probably will be getting a HD-DVD or Blue Ray player in about a year or two, so I want to make sure my reciever will still be able to do DD and DTS 5.1 properly. Thanks is advance.


I hope its not a stupid question because I'd like to know the same. Also really close to pulling the trigger on an onkyo 674E but would like some reassurance that it'll play bluray/hddvd correctly - and not make me change settings for normal DVDs over coax.

Both my HD players (HD-E1 and PS3) only offer lossless audio over HDMI, so I don't have the option of multichannel analog inputs.
post #119 of 777
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb4 View Post

Sorry to ask such a stupid question but does this LFE problem only apply when using an HD-DVD or Blue Ray player? I'm looking to get the Onkyo 604 and for now I'm using a Panasonic S97 dvd player and all I want is Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1. I probably will be getting a HD-DVD or Blue Ray player in about a year or two, so I want to make sure my reciever will still be able to do DD and DTS 5.1 properly. Thanks is advance.


Not a stupid question at all.

The "LFE issue" is only a problem with audio input as LPCM. Bitstream (undecoded audio like DTS, Dolby Digital, etc.) is not affected. Essentially, when the receiver or pre/pro decodes the audio codec there is no problem.

Some DVD players and other devices can output LPCM. They will be deficient on the LFE channel. Most of those devices can also output "bitstream" so the problem is easily resolved.

Current receivers cannot decode the new audio codecs on HD DVDs and Blu-Ray Discs. These must be decoded in the player and sent out as LPCM to realize the full potential of new sound formats. This is why the problem seems to be synonymous with HD DVD and Blu-Ray but it's not really a problem with either of those formats the problem is with LPCM.
post #120 of 777
I would never have given any of this much thought, as I think that my DVD-Audio playback is probably fine as is. However, sometimes more information can be a bad thing.

So, now I am wondering whether there is any tweaking necessary on my Toshiba SD-4800 and Onkyo TX-SR602 combination for DVD-Audio playback. Neither of these players has HDMI, so this is strictly an analog issue.

The multi-channel input on the 602 has a setting for "Subwoofer sensitivity", which is currently set at 0dB, and can be adjusted up to +5, +10 or +15dB.

My initial inclination is that this is correct. However, I would love to hear from others as to whether they know of any issues with this setup. Thanks.

Nathan
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