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DVD recorders with digital tuners are coming! - Page 3

post #61 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielCard View Post

I wouldn't make that assumption. Many chips are programmable, so you don't have to pay royalties until it is doing the patent infringing job. I suspect that the $23 dollar figure is for a ATSC receiver+TV that is doing everything. Perhaps the chip(s) you are looking at doesn't do everything.

The chip that does the heavy lifting is the one that makes all the 1s and 0s into a picture. There's probably some front end RF circuitry that hasn't changed in 50 years - but everything after that (until the signal is handed off to the display) is probably all on one chip. And as most chip makers boast - that chip usually can handle QAM too. The only thing the chip does that can probably be claimed for royalty is the decoding (scheme someone invented) - I just don't see how anyone will get $23/chip for that.
post #62 of 254
I think this page lists the claimed patents and the companies making the claims:
http://www.atsc.org/patent/patentstatements.html
Seems rather ridiculous to me, although most people I know that have studied the U.S. patent system find it ridiculous. Too many patents for obvious things. Given a problem most engineers would solve it the same or similar way. There shouldn't be a patent for it. I don't know why the U.S. government is forcing a standard that is controlled by so many patents. Is that a Clinton administration mistake?
post #63 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielCard View Post

I think this page lists the claimed patents and the companies making the claims:
http://www.atsc.org/patent/patentstatements.html
Seems rather ridiculous to me, although most people I know that have studied the U.S. patent system find it ridiculous. Too many patents for obvious things. Given a problem most engineers would solve it the same or similar way. There shouldn't be a patent for it. I don't know why the U.S. government is forcing a standard that is controlled by so many patents. Is that a Clinton administration mistake?

The ATSC standard was chosen during that time. Like other things in the market - it's not necessarily the best solution that wins the day - it's the one with the best marketing and political push that does.
post #64 of 254
It just seems to me that the market quickly became saturated with ATSC tumers in TVs to the point that very few STB's are even being sold.

If it was that easy to incorporate them into TV's I would guess that it would not be much more difficult to put one in a DVD recorder. The hardest part being the downconverting and upconverting although the S Video output is basically a down converter I think.

-DonB2
post #65 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonB2 View Post

If it was that easy to incorporate them into TV's I would guess that it would not be much more difficult to put one in a DVD recorder.

Technically it's easy - but it takes money and the makers have to price this into the final product competing against existing lower priced offerings.
post #66 of 254
Getting back to the specs discussion, the press releases from CES have been awfully vague. Not everyone mentions QAM, so it's hard to determine whether they will or won't have QAM. LG's recorders will have it and seemingly Toshiba as well. The Panny, JVC, and LiteOn press releases don't mention it.

Also, the blurbs also point out that these recorders accept "all standard DVD formats/types". I wonder if that includes the DVD+R DL? Does anyone make a +RW DL??

Anyone stumble across more information about these types of DVD Recorders?

ft

EDIT, I just went back to re-read the cnet article. Looks like the Samsung's will support DL media. Still, no mention of QAM.
post #67 of 254
We may just see Blue Ray level recorders with ATSC tuners before a downconvert ATSC DVD recorder is available.

DonB2
post #68 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonB2 View Post

We may just see Blue Ray level recorders with ATSC tuners before a downconvert ATSC DVD recorder is available.

DonB2

Highly unlikely.
post #69 of 254
Ok Maybe not. As the movie industry Aka Sony would not approve of capturing HD recordings in HD quality.

-DonB2
post #70 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonB2 View Post

Ok Maybe not. As the movie industry Aka Sony would not approve of capturing HD recordings in HD quality.

-DonB2

Not only that but there's the issue of format wars, cost and competition (SD DVDr w/HDD for $300)
post #71 of 254
I'm reading on this forum that ATSC tuners will be mandatory for any devince from March 1, 2007.
I imagine that's a rule for the USA.
Do you know if the schedule is the same for Canada ?
post #72 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftaok View Post

Getting back to the specs discussion, the press releases from CES have been awfully vague. Not everyone mentions QAM, so it's hard to determine whether they will or won't have QAM. LG's recorders will have it and seemingly Toshiba as well. The Panny, JVC, and LiteOn press releases don't mention it.

Also, the blurbs also point out that these recorders accept "all standard DVD formats/types". I wonder if that includes the DVD+R DL? Does anyone make a +RW DL??

Anyone stumble across more information about these types of DVD Recorders?

ft

EDIT, I just went back to re-read the cnet article. Looks like the Samsung's will support DL media. Still, no mention of QAM.

It is indeed sad that they have professional marketing departments yet they fail to release essential information about their products. Unless of course they are not finalized (no pun intended) and they are buying time...

How hard is it to write a press release that states:
1) What you are planning to sell? (specifications)
2) When?
3) How much?

It's that simple marketing peoples :-)
post #73 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by loulou27 View Post

I'm reading on this forum that ATSC tuners will be mandatory for any devince from March 1, 2007.
I imagine that's a rule for the USA.
Do you know if the schedule is the same for Canada ?

Unfortunately, Industry Canada has not yet made this requirement apply to Canada, so it is highly possible that a whole bunch of small TVs and DVD recorders that can't be sold in the States will be dumped in Canada.
post #74 of 254
Ok, I am getting up to speed. I had not thought HD Blue Ray DVD recorders were available to the consumer but I see Comp USA has on for around $600.00

-DonB2
post #75 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonB2 View Post

Ok, I am getting up to speed. I had not thought HD Blue Ray DVD recorders were available to the consumer but I see Comp USA has on for around $600.00

-DonB2

This might be of interest also..http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=791073
post #76 of 254
DLSDO,

Thanks, I was kinda wondering what this new recorder was really capable of copying since commercial HD movies are protected.


-Donb2
post #77 of 254
I've been curious about what really happens on March 1, 2007, esp. what happens to units on the shelf? Apparently, they can still be sold since the FCC order states the digital tuners are reqd for anything "shipped in interstate commerce or imported after March 1, 2007 and for which they are responsible" (leaves out stores and current stock). In fact, some of the industry comments keyed in on that issue/question by saying those already on the shelf are still usable by consumers. That might explain why no one is too hot to discount so far.

The actual FCC order (amended) is here and Appendix B says this:

"(i) Digital television reception capability implementation schedule. (1) Responsible parties, as defined in Section 2.909 of this chapter, are required to equip new TV broadcast receivers that are shipped in interstate commerce or imported from any foreign country into the United States and for which they are responsible to comply with the provisions of this section in accordance with the following schedule:

- Receivers with screen sizes 36 and above - 50% of all of a responsible party's units must include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2004; 100% of such units must include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2005

- Receivers with screen sizes 25 to less than 36 - 50% of all of a responsible party's units must include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2005; 100% of such units must include DTV tuners effective March 1, 2006

- Receivers with screen sizes less than 25 - 100% of all such units must include DTV tuners effective March 1, 2007

- Other video devices (videocassette recorders (VCRs), digital video recorders such as hard drive and DVD recorders, etc.) that receive television signals - 100% of all such units must include DTV tuners effective March 1, 2007.

The requirement to include digital television reception capability in new TV broadcast receivers does not apply to devices such as mobile telephones and personal digital assistants where such devices do not include the capability to receive TV service on the frequencies allocated for broadcast television service."
post #78 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabjxo View Post

I've been curious about what really happens on March 1, 2007, esp. what happens to units on the shelf?

They will continue to be sold as they are today. You probably won't see discounts until the next generation of units are released....just like any new product release.
post #79 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabjxo View Post

I've been curious about what really happens on March 1, 2007, esp. what happens to units on the shelf? Apparently, they can still be sold since the FCC order states the digital tuners are reqd for anything "shipped in interstate commerce or imported after March 1, 2007 and for which they are responsible" (leaves out stores and current stock).

I can give you an example that is anecdotal but interesting. Last year I purchased a new 27" TV for the bedroom in late February so I spent a couple days in Circuit City looking at the stock and getting an idea of picture quality, then buying a unit. From all that looking I was quite familiar with all the models on display. A couple weeks later soon after the March 1 2006 deadline I was back in the same Circuit City and observed that there now was not a single TV over 25" without a digital tuner. They wiped the stock clean of all NTSC-only units.

The unit I had purchased a couple weeks earlier was a Panasonic. Now I found that there was not a single Panasonic CRT TV on display. A look into the Panasonic website at the time revealed that Panasonic offered no units in that size range with digital tuners -- They were not compliant with the mandate and so they were not on the shelf at that CC.

As I said, anecdotal at best, but here is a case where some retailers may opt to simply yank the NTSC-only units and send them back to the manufacturers. I'll see what they do this March.
post #80 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post


As I said, anecdotal at best, but here is a case where some retailers may opt to simply yank the NTSC-only units and send them back to the manufacturers. I'll see what they do this March.

Not gonna happen. There were plenty of analog tuner over 25" TVs on shelves at many stores after March last year. The reason that may have happened at some stores is to push flat screens in that size range.

The local Walmart has more than 15 CRTs and 5 LCD models (and a bunch of DVDrs) under 25" with analog tuners that will surely be on display well after the 3/1 deadline.
post #81 of 254
And how many STB ATSC OTA tuners does Walmart have on the shelves? Last I look they had zero.

Also I do not see why NTSC tuners ever have to go away. Recently I found out that cable companies are not required to go digital. It is only the broadcast stations that are mandated by the goverment to go digital.

-DonB2
post #82 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonB2 View Post

And how many STB ATSC OTA tuners does Walmart have on the shelves? Last I look they had zero.

2

As does just about every other retailer - what does that have to do with anything.


Quote:


Also I do not see why NTSC tuners ever have to go away. Recently I found out that cable companies are not required to go digital. It is only the broadcast stations that are mandated by the goverment to go digital.

Availability of NTSC on cable will not keep NTSC equipment around. In 5 years you will be hard pressed to find anything new with an NTSC tuner in it.

Also, just because they are not required to do digital doesn't mean they won't.
post #83 of 254
I guess the speed of product transition will vary based on whether your retailers have a distribution center in your state. If there is one, you'll likely be fed all the leftover stuff from the warehouses that can't be shipped out-of-state for a while. If you live in a state with very few retailers and no distribution centers (like Vermont), probably you'll get the new stuff much quicker (as soon as the store sells out of the current stock).
post #84 of 254
Here is a CES preview of a Samsung DVD recorder with ATSC tuner that a poster at another forum was kind enough to share:

http://hometheater.about.com/od/onth...er-w--ATSC.htm

( http://hometheater.about.com/od/ont...der-w--ATSC.htm )

Hope this URL works, if not please jump to the Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC tuner forum to get it.

-DonB2
post #85 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfan View Post

I guess the speed of product transition will vary based on whether your retailers have a distribution center in your state. If there is one, you'll likely be fed all the leftover stuff from the warehouses that can't be shipped out-of-state for a while. If you live in a state with very few retailers and no distribution centers (like Vermont), probably you'll get the new stuff much quicker (as soon as the store sells out of the current stock).

The FCC won't send the police to sit at the state border to hand out tickets to distributor's trucks who come in with a load "illegal" TVs from out of state. If BB has a bunch analog TVs in Mass and they're all sold out in Vt you can bet they'll ship them there after 3/1.
post #86 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by biker19 View Post

The FCC won't send the police to sit at the state border to hand out tickets to distributor's trucks who come in with a load "illegal" TVs from out of state. If BB has a bunch analog TVs in Mass and they're all sold out in Vt you can bet they'll ship them there after 3/1.

You're right on this...U.S. "distributors" and retailers aren't affected at all. The FCC's order refers to "responsible parties" who are the ones who have to abide by the DTV rule.

Here's an explanation of "responsible parties":

"Responsible Party

Section 2.909 of the FCC rules defines the responsible party and how the party is responsible for the compliance of radio frequency equipment with the applicable standards. For equipment that requires a grant of equipment authorization from the Commission, the responsible party is the entity to whom that authorization is granted (referred to as the grantee).

In the case of equipment subject to authorization under the verification procedure, the manufacturer (or in the case of imported equipment, the importer) is the responsible party. When the equipment is subject to authorization under the DoC procedure, the responsible party is:

The manufacturer or, if the equipment is assembled from modular components that were subject to a DoC and the resulting system is subject to authorization under a DoC, the assembler.

The importer if the equipment, by itself, is subject to a DoC and that equipment is imported. Remember, if a product is imported, the importer is the responsible party, not the foreign manufacturer."
post #87 of 254
I just want to see a Black and white set for sale at target with a ATSC tuner.

-DonB2
post #88 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonB2 View Post

I just want to see a Black and white set for sale at target with a ATSC tuner.

LOL! Let me guess it should also have a dial to change the channels and a knob to change the volume, brightness and contrast? How about horizontal and vertical hold controls at the back? Of course it has to be built into a wooden console.
post #89 of 254
Cable, if they're smart, which might be a stretch, will market their ability to supply analog signals after the analog shutoff date. Cable, being greedy, may use the demise of analog broadcast to "push" their customers to digital offerings for which they'll happily, for an annual amount exceeding its retail cost, rent a STB to anyone who wants to keep running their analog TV.
post #90 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by rf75 View Post

...for an annual amount exceeding its retail cost, rent a STB to anyone who wants to keep running their analog TV.

Never have rented a STB before, but I'm assuming the fees are $5-10. I haven't seen a digital STB that you can purchase for less than $120. The one I have with ATSC/QAM tuner was about $150, but couldn't handle encrypted signals. The one's I've seen for satellite are about $300.

If cable companies are smart, they will take their "analog standard" and make it a "digital standard" (unencrypted) so that people with new TV sets won't need a STB and only people that want advanced services (PPV, etc) and old analog sets would a STB. Remember back in the day before TV's were cable ready? You had to rent a STB. (One with a dial and no remote...from what I remember)
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