360 Add on Kong vs SD DVD audio

From what I understand, the 360 only outputs Dolby Digital 5.1, not DTS like the standalone players, so the audio bitrate of the 360 is literally like 1/3 that of the standalone players. Without an HDMI or analog output, I don't think you can utilize Dolby Digital Plus or any of the newer formats which would most certainly be a noticeable improvement over the SDDVD version.

What sound format are you picking for King Kong? Pick the DD+ format and let the 360 downconvert it to 640 kbps.........unless you were doing that already.

This is anecdotal at best, but I do think that the Dolby Digital + soundtracks are set way low. And while it may seem like something is wrong, it definitely has to do with the Soundtrack and how it is produced.

I have Batman Begins that I purchased, minutes after picking up my HD-DVD Drive, and it has a Dolby True HD soundtrack that definitely is better than the Dolby Digital +.

I need to find my DVD Version of Batman Begins and listen to the different sound tracks to see which sound's best.

The XBOX 360 is downgrading the new soundtracks to Dolby Digital, but it is at 640KB which technically is a superior bitrate to the DVD Soundtracks.

Wikipedia states that the DVD Video, audio streams for AC3 and DTS are specced out as follows.

AC-3: 48 kHz sampling rate, 1 to 5.1 (6) channels, up to 448 kbit/s
DTS: 48 kHz or 96 kHz sampling rate, 2 to 6.1 channels, Half Rate (768 kbit/s) or Full Rate (1536 kbit/s)

They also have this to say about the Dolby Digital + sound stream.

As of 2006, HDMI 1.3 is the only means to transport a DD+ stream between two pieces of consumer equipment. The older and more widespread SPDIF-interface cannot provide the sufficient bandwidth for a Dolby Digital Plus stream (up to 6144 kbit/s).

To address the lack of availability of DD+ capable equipment, some decoder implementations will decode a DD+ bistream and re-encode it in a more common format (such as DTS 5.1.) The Toshiba HD-A1 and HD-XA1 HD DVD players are examples of this transcoding process. The downmix is potentially inferior to the original DD+ bitstream, but superior to standard AC-3.

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So following this, Microsoft would have had to do something really wrong for the sound to be worse (technically) than standard AC-3. I don't have any Discs that support the new DTS formats, so I don't know how they will sound. But usually the reason that DTS sounds better has not so much to do with it's bitrate (but it don't hurt) and more to do with how it was Mixed in the studio. They usually spend more time on the DTS and other higher bitrate soundtracks, as Dolby Digital has become something of the norm and so it is probably more cookie cutter. YMMV of course as to what you think sounds better, there are alot of variables that come into play here, speakers, receiver and the like.

I'm sure that now that the XBOX 360 HD-DVD addon is out, any problems that Microsoft will have to address will come to lite, fairly quickly. Many people have been researching HD-DVD and waiting on this device to test the waters as their first player. Mainly because they don't want to spend $500.00 to $1000.00 on a new DVD Player.

Hope some of this helps. I'll try to post more info once I find my Batman Begins and "The Thing" SD-DVD's.

But the real tests will be when a really big movie (superman returns maybe) on HD-DVD. You might want to rent MI:III as well that might provide some alternative evidence of the XBOX-360's audio capabilities.

But trust me when I say that the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack does sound pretty damn good, but I need to compare it to the DTS soundtrack that I believe is on my other version.

TimT

Lexman,

Decided to look into my Batman Begins SD-DVD box, as I had thought it was in the many piles of discs that I don't put away , and was surprised that it was back in its case.

So i popped in the SD-DVD into the XBOX-360, and set it at a normal level for DVD on my receiver.

Here is what I can tell just from playing one after the other.

1. SD-DVD Bass does seem a little stronger than the Dolby Digital + sound tracks on these current batches of HD-DVD's, at least compared in the case of Batman Begins.

2. However, the Dolby Digital + sound field is superior to the Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack on the SD-DVD, overall there is a clarity of sound that just is not present on the SD-DVD, and the sound mix is much more lively in the surrounds and certain sounds simply have more strength to them. I attribute this to the additional bandwidth that has been given to the soundtrack as I'm pretty sure they did not remix it for this release.

3. Volume level and Bass are definitely lower on the Dolby Digital + soundtrack in Batman Begins, and I'm sure this may be something that is true for all Dolby Digital + soundtracks. One thing I remember reading is that HD-DVD with regards to audio depends more heavily on your receiver. I believe Dolby Digital + tries to recreate the original soundfield exactly as in the theater, and that your equipment will have a much greater impact on the quality of audio you get out of it. This is not to say that the Dolby Digital + track sounded bad, as it did not and as I stated it is in fact clearer and a little punchier on overall audio, just not heavy on Bass.

4. Dolby True HD, sounds absolutely amazing compared to Dolby Digital 5.1, this is much closer to some of the high end DTS audio tracks, (and I have been known to purchase second copies of movies to get a good DTS track) On any movie you have TrueHD this will likely be what you will be listening to in the future.

I don't have King Kong to compare so I can't give apples to apples comparison there, but I can tell you that if you adjust your base accordingly I think you'll be surprised how good the Dolby Digital + track might be. Remember these are new audio formats, and I'm sure that as time goes one, Microsoft as well as others will help make these tracks sound their best.

I for one am very happy with the add-on's performance so far. The difference between SD-DVD and DVD is quite astounding, and I don't have 1080p, but I'm hearing more and more, how that is not quite as big a deal as some are making it out to be. Most people who have 1080p have paid a premium for it, and therefore are simply getting a better TV in general (most times dramatically better than their previous TV's) and that is most likely why they feel so strongly about 1080p.

I have yet to spend any real time with one of those sets, but I'm more than happy with 1080i for the moment.

Hope this info helps you and good luck with other HD-DVD's I would be interested in hearing what you thought of other soundtracks, especially any that have the new DTS HD formats.

TimT

well remember, it's take a DD+ 640kbps track (in most case) and Recompressing it at a quality level that we don't know

Take an BMP , compressed it to JPEG (STUDIO MASTER to DD Plus) at 100% than, the 360 takes that Lossy Track and Recompressed it to 640 again. Everybody knows who work in Photo or graphic that JPEG to JPEG is BAD.

In the case of TrueHD, you're going from Loseless to DD 640kbps so it's should sounds better than DD+ and it's normal.

I don't have a 360 addon , but on the A1, all HD DVD DD+ track sounds better than DD.

Even in Riddick the 1.5mbits DD + track sound better than the DTS 1.5mbits that they include. It's more dynamic and less directionnal..

i dont think its the hd add on thats lacking in audio its the 360 its self, i have notice this many of times before the hd add on was release. I have a little sony upscaling dvd player (NS75H) and it has been better than my 360 every since i got it & i have all the updates for my 360

I had the same problem a very flat 5.1 on Batman Begins....my SDVD also sounded better. I came up with the solution which made it sound 10x better. In the languages menu I changed the language to Dolby TrueHD (even though I dont have a TrueHD receiver) and bang, the change was evident. It seems that the downscaled TrueHD to 5.1 is better than the default 5.1....much better!

Has anyone else tried this ?

I just got finished watching BB and even when selecting TrueHD, the sound was still very flat. I watched Aeon Flux and it never appeared to have any sound issues. I even had my receiver cranked to -4db. I normally watch at -10 or -12db with standard DVDs and even when watching Aeon Flux. I was kind of disappointed. I'll watch it again when I get my A2 player to really hear the TrueHD track rather than a down converted DD track.

The picture was really good just like Aeon Flux.

You'll definitely hear a difference with the A2 with the audio over HDMI. The audio from the 360 doesn't compare to the audio over HDMI from my A1. The DD+ does sound better than DD and with TrueHD DD doesn't come close. But for $200(or less) the HD DVD add on is an excellent deal and worth every penny!

Dam, why did the A2 have to drop the Analog 5.1 outs. If they were there I would have skipped the 360 addon and bought the A2. Well I guess $199 will be an ok stop gap till a universal comes out but it sure is annoying.

I purchased my HD drive on Saturday at GameStop. I called ahead from the golf course for them to set one aside for me. I'm glad I did because when I got there they said they only got 2 in.

I purchased the HD version of Apollo 13 and did some A/B testing with the SD version playing on my high-end Denon DVD player.

Video: I always thought Apollo 13 was one of the highest video quality DVDs I have seen but switching back and forth between the 2 I was absolutely amazed at the improved video quality from the 360 HD Player.

Audio: Even when cranking up the sound level from the 360 I still found the audio from the standard DVD to be much better. The 360 didn't offer the same punch and clarity I get from the standard disk.

I look forward to trying out the PS3 Blu-Ray player this weekend.

Are there receivers out there that will process the new HD audio formats?

i have noticed the same thing with my 360 hd-dvd player, in particular with MI3.....while dialogue and overall sound mix seemed better, the big punchy bass was gone, and seemed a little strained/muted during explosions, etc.

It would have been nice if they at least did what the Toshiba does, convert the audio to 1.5 DTS (which most receivers should handle)

The sound difference is likely in the DACs and the 360 would need a hardware change to fix this. Also it sounds as if the 360 uses an amount of compression on the audio output - makes video games sound better especially with entry level systems like home theatres in a box. Dynamics come out better and the presentation is more in your face. However those that have higher end systems will lose out in soundstage and clarity. Unfortuneatly M$ knows we're in the minority
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An update to allow compression to be turned right off would likely improve sound quality - but without 6 ch analog out or HDMI to an HDMI receiver I think the 360's audio quality will be less than that of the stand-alone players that have these features.

man, I didn't think this was going to be a deal-breaker for me especially since initial reports were saying that dvd's through the 360 add-on sounded BETTER than their SD dvd counterparts....but after a weekend with my 360 hd-dvd player i am so underwhelmed with the sound quality that I might get the toshiba player. there's definite lack of impact bass coming out of the digital audio of the 360 with the hd-dvd's and there's no way to manage the bass unless i boost in the receiver, at which point my other 5.1 DD sources will sound way too bass heavy at those settings.

i was really holding out for an hd-dvd player that could habdle multichannel sacd and dvd-a so i could replace my denon 1920 upscaling dvd player i use with hdmi, but without anything like that on the horizon i might just have to use a 6-channel analog switcher......

oleus

I just hooked up mine. The video is WAY WAY WAY soft compared to the Toshiba A1 and the sound if completely all borked up. I was hoping to cut out one DVD deck cause the A1 has a ton of issues too, but this is going back in the morning till MS can get it worked out. I recommend you guys avoid it for a few weeks.

I'm thinking of returning mine as well. I have a month from yesterday to decide. When do the H2's come in again......

Thank goodness for this thread! I thought I was going crazy. Hooked up my HD 360 add-on drive and watched King Kong. Looked freakin amazing, but the sound was strange. It was crisp and clear and the soundstage was seemless but something felt missing. The crunch of the dinosaur's jaws felt flat and the bass just wasn't there in certain scenes. I cranked my Sherwood Newcastle P-965 all the way to 0 db and it still sounded off. And I had recalled the SD version of King Kong sounding amazing in my Zenith DVD player.

I also played Mission Impossible 3. Again, I felt something was missing. Sounds were crisp, but gunfire and explosions sounded muted compared to the other sound effects. They just weren't vibrant enough.

Now, I probably need to recalibrate my pre-pro because I've been fiddling around with the settings so much lately. But the way sounds come out of my 360 worries me. It makes me feel like I need to upgrade my equipment. I hate feeling that way.

Is there an option in the 360 dashboard that produces compressed (or level volume) sound?

It seems strange that the audio would be an issue. I know this is a completely different compression scheme, but If you rip a 320kbps MP3 or an EAC, FLAC, etc. file down to 192kbps, it's still going to sound better than a 160kbps MP3.

Sounds like it might be a dynamic compression issue?

The Xbox360 outputs DTS no problem, I'm not sure where you heard that. I got the HD-DVD player on Thursday and I'm very impressed with the video quality. I, too, noticed the lack of bass. The audio is exceptionally clear on Kong, Batman, and The Rundown, but the lack of bass was something I found odd. I corrected it (mostly) by activating the DDEX mode of my Yammy and playing with some levels.

1. No... not yet.
2. That was my thought as well. I'm sure a software update will solve the issue.

DD+ isn't 640 kbps........it's 3000-6000 kbps.

EDIT: Just correcting my idiot self........I now know that there is such thing as a DD+ 640 kbps sountrack.

I'm fairly certain the entire conversion process is digital until it hits your preamp or receiver.

I also found that the sound is lacking on this - Batman Begins sounded way subdued compared to any of my DVDs.

no i don't think the 360 outputs DTS. if you select DTS from a dvd's menu, it still downconverts it to DD.

Exactly. It will indeed PLAY the DTS tracks but it will downconvert them to DD.
Sounds TOTALLY like major compression on the add-on. Like Broadcast, Cable Tv or the "midnight" mode on some receivers. Agreed it is probably for people with dinky home theater in a box settups... Will sound good for them. I was debating whether to get an Hd-a2 or a 360 and add on (and sell my old Xbox and some games to offset.) If the audio is indeed wonky on this, I'll definitely go for the Hd-a2...

well, my cable dd 5.1 actually has BETTER bass than what i have heard on the 360 so far.

this is really disappointing. i'll probably use the player for the time being but get another hd-dvd player the moment they release one that plays SACD's.

is this ever going to happen?