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The LSI Chip Panny ES-20- Did Panny Implement The LP(4 hour) Great Video Quality?  

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
The Panny ES-20 non HDD DVDR was introduced in late November 2005 as a replacement fpr the Panny non HDD ES-10(June,2005) because Panny believed that they had to have a model that had DV camcorder link to compete. Panny did not have time to configure their own chip in this short time frame so they bought and stuck in the LSI chip which had built in DV link camcorder capability. It was a manufacturing headache but truly a remarkable deal. No other company could have reacted this quickly. Now I am not saying the ES-20 is without problems. BUT- Panny ramped up the production on it and produced around 5-10,000 units- incredible. Much more than the original ES-10. BUT, getting back to the original post- did Panny implement their great LP, 4 hour record mode on these ES-20 models that were thrown together so quickly AND IS IT as good as the ES-10 which I know has great LP? I will test it over the next week.
PS- The ES-20 is the only Panny to ever have had the LSI chip- some say the 2005 ES-40 VCR /DVD recorder may but LSI has never confirmed this. The 2006 Pannys do not have the LSI chip. Panny prefers to use their own in house manufactured chips for cost savings. LSI probably did not give them that great a deal because at the time Panny was desperate for a mass produced good DV link chip that was essentially plug and play. Panny had DV chips at the time but engineering was too much and they did NOT have one that could plug and play as easily as the LSI does and did. LSI specializes now in great chips with DV(camcorder inputs).
How could Panny incorporate their great 2005 first time ever introduced great LP mode algorithims etc in so short a time period to configure with the new only once used LSI chip? Sounds impossible to me but that is what tests are for.
post #2 of 23
Wow - great report. Must be nice to be the fly on the wall. :)
post #3 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
The Panny ES-20 non HDD DVDR was introduced in late November 2005 as a replacement fpr the Panny non HDD ES-10(June,2005) because Panny believed that they had to have a model that had DV camcorder link to compete. Panny did not have time to configure their own chip in this short time frame so they bought and stuck in the LSI chip which had built in DV link camcorder capability. It was a manufacturing headache but truly a remarkable deal. No other company could have reacted this quickly. Now I am not saying the ES-20 is without problems. BUT- Panny ramped up the production on it and produced around 5-10,000 units- incredible. Much more than the original ES-10. BUT, getting back to the original post- did Panny implement their great LP, 4 hour record mode on these ES-20 models that were thrown together so quickly AND IS IT as good as the ES-10 which I know has great LP? I will test it over the next week.
PS- The ES-20 is the only Panny to ever have had the LSI chip- some say the 2005 ES-40 VCR /DVD recorder may but LSI has never confirmed this. The 2006 Pannys do not have the LSI chip. Panny prefers to use their own in house manufactured chips for cost savings. LSI probably did not give them that great a deal because at the time Panny was desperate for a mass produced good DV link chip that was essentially plug and play. Panny had DV chips at the time but engineering was too much and they did NOT have one that could plug and play as easily as the LSI does and did. LSI specializes now in great chips with DV(camcorder inputs).
How could Panny incorporate their great 2005 first time ever introduced great LP mode algorithims etc in so short a time period to configure with the new only once used LSI chip? Sounds impossible to me but that is what tests are for.
Interesting post! This could definitely explain the bugs in the ES20's FR mode. They perhaps rushed it out the door, and let the unpaid interns write the FR mode and Scheduler modules ;-)

The ES20 definitely has a bagful of bugs, but if one can workaround the bugs, it is a solid recorder *** knock on wood ***

The most annoying for me is the inability to pause the FR mode as it limits flexibility. For those who schedule a lot of repeated daily programs, the scheduler bug is a pain. For a long list of bugs/issues, see the "first impressions" post from a year ago....
post #4 of 23
A couple of notes:

1) LP 720x480 algorithm on ES-20 and ES-40V is entirely designed by LSI Logic.

2) Design cycles are much longer than you think. For the ES-20 and ES-40V, from concept to mass production, took 2.5 years.

Ron
post #5 of 23
Thread Starter 
Ron- you have posted before and I believe you are one of those rare posters.Your posts are intriguing and incisive. Thank you for your contribution. Ron , Can you confirm the Panny ES-40 has the LSI Chip?- We know Panny ES20 has it. I think you just did confirm this. But us doubters wonder. Btw you are a great contributer to this board.
post #6 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncaahoops
Interesting post! This could definitely explain the bugs in the ES20's FR mode. They perhaps rushed it out the door, and let the unpaid interns write the FR mode and Scheduler modules ;-)

The ES20 definitely has a bagful of bugs, but if one can workaround the bugs, it is a solid recorder *** knock on wood ***

The most annoying for me is the inability to pause the FR mode as it limits flexibility. For those who schedule a lot of repeated daily programs, the scheduler bug is a pain. For a long list of bugs/issues, see the "first impressions" post from a year ago....
NCAA- - Even with the flex pause problem-who would use this??? almost no one. I have never scheduled more than 3 programs in a day-24 hours. Believe me the 20 is a very good freaking great video QUALITY recording to DVD. It has the LSI chip and records and chase plays DVD-RAM!!!!!! And it has an easy interface unlike Philips,liteon,polaroid and LG to delete commercials. Take care.
post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
Ron- you have posted before and I believe you are one of those rare posters.Your posts are intriguing and incisive. Thank you for your contribution. Ron , Can you confirm the Panny ES-40 has the LSI Chip?- We know Panny ES20 has it. I think you just did confirm this. But us doubters wonder. Btw you are a great contributer to this board.
Yes, the ES-40V has the LSI Logic chip. It's very common to develop a single loader model and a combi model at the same time since the firmware is almost identical. It cuts down on the QA time since the same bugs are fixed on each model. The ES-40V is essentially an ES-20 with a tape deck.

Ron
post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
NCAA- - Even with the flex pause problem-who would use this??? almost no one. I have never scheduled more than 3 programs in a day-24 hours. Believe me the 20 is a very good freaking great video QUALITY recording to DVD. It has the LSI chip and records and chase plays DVD-RAM!!!!!! And it has an easy interface unlike Philips,liteon,polaroid and LG to delete commercials. Take care.
Some people use it, especially if they have it as a primary recorder. For example, someone into talk shows or politics or reruns could easily need this as they record the various talk-show and political pundits and news casts. In those cases, people don't necessarily watch everything, they just browse through the hot topics and watch the ones of interest.

For me the FR pause mode, or even better the Pioneer MN-modes would have been very helpful. I already keep a calculator by the recorder for the FR mode conversions. With the MN modes I would need a PC/spreadsheet :-) (This would be particularly helpful for me when putting multiple things/episodes on a single DVD at different times).

Personally I don't use the ES20 for live TV recording, I use the Comcraptic (oops Comcastic) DVR, and even with that I rarely use "Series" recording since the sports schedule varies from day to day and week to week, so it's more of a pain than help for my case... (Even the Comcast DVR has a couple of "Series" bugs)

As far as the video quality I can't compare since I only have the ES20 :-) I was tempted by a $57 Samsung (-RW(VR mode!) on Fry's Black Friday but of course it sold out before I even woke up on that day :)
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
Ron- you have posted before and I believe you are one of those rare posters.Your posts are intriguing and incisive. Thank you for your contribution. Ron , Can you confirm the Panny ES-40 has the LSI Chip?- We know Panny ES20 has it. I think you just did confirm this. But us doubters wonder. Btw you are a great contributer to this board.
The ES-40 is not mentioned or shown on LSI's website,an odd omission if it does indeed have an LSI chip.http://www.lsi.com/insight_center/ls...se/index.html#
post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildv
The ES-40 is not mentioned or shown on LSI's website,an odd omission if it does indeed have an LSI chip.http://www.lsi.com/insight_center/ls...se/index.html#
The list is not comprehensive. For example, Domino is used in all the late model D-VHS decks (JVC 40K, 5U and 100U) and in the Motorola DCT-6412 Phase 3 cable STB.

Ron
post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildv
The ES-40 is not mentioned or shown on LSI's website,an odd omission if it does indeed have an LSI chip.http://www.lsi.com/insight_center/ls...se/index.html#
The list is not comprehensive. For example, Domino is used in all the late model D-VHS decks (JVC 40K, 5U and 100U) and in the Motorola DCT-6412 Phase 3 cable STB.

My bio:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8155354

Ron
post #12 of 23
Thread Starter 
Thank you Ron!!! Your knowledge is valuable. I feel that you can correct us in a very been there situation. Thanks.
post #13 of 23
Just for a knowledge "boost" here. You guys buy alot of DVD recorders....
Why no mention of Toshiba? Are the OK? What is bad abotu them. I have been thinking about the Toshiba XS-55. Just wonder why ther is not too much talk about Toshiba. Are they plagued with problems?
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by goots1
Just for a knowledge "boost" here. You guys buy alot of DVD recorders....
Why no mention of Toshiba? Are the OK? What is bad abotu them. I have been thinking about the Toshiba XS-55. Just wonder why ther is not too much talk about Toshiba. Are they plagued with problems?
I haven't used a Toshiba, but from what I recall from reading this forum, some people are reporting sensitivities or even faux-sensitivities to no-copy flags. I do not know if this was for a specific model year, or specific models, or across the board. Someone with extensive Toshiba experience please shed some light on this. I too would be interested in considering a Toshiba for when I get a HDD based model...
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394
The list is not comprehensive. For example, Domino is used in all the late model D-VHS decks (JVC 40K, 5U and 100U) and in the Motorola DCT-6412 Phase 3 cable STB.

My bio:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8155354

Ron
Because the list contains only categories for DVD, DVD-VHS(combo), DVD-PVR(HDD), "cool stuff" and out of stock. But no sections for standalone D-VHS or STB's. Just found it strange that the ES-40 was not included in the DVD-VHS section, but the ES-20 was in the DVD section.
post #16 of 23
ncaahoops, If you don't mind "Refurbished" items www.tigerdirect.com has the following Samsung models that I think can record in the -RW VR Mode, BUT CHECK TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN!

SAMSUNG "REFURBISHED" MODELS:

DVD-R120 $59.99
DVD-R130 $54.99
DVD-VR330 $99.99 After Mail In Rebate (DVD/VCR Combo)

My neighbor a couple of weeks back got last years combo model the VR320 for $89.99 & with S&H it came to $101.75 so I'm guessing the 120 & 130 should be even less to ship.

His 320 can record on -RW Discs in either the "VR" Mode or "Video" Mode & with both Modes you can unfinalize them & add or erase programs on the disc.

His we checked out & I posted a Test Report on it & I could'nt find ANY real problems with it including the "Chapter Creator" that was suposed to give other players fits but all the players we tried it on there were really no big problems.

I kicking myself that I din't grab one at that price especially seeing that it would have been another RAM Disc player in the house but now with Christmas coming I can't really afford to go for any new gear at this time :(
post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1313
ncaahoops, If you don't mind "Refurbished" items www.tigerdirect.com has the following Samsung models that I think can record in the -RW VR Mode, BUT CHECK TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN!

SAMSUNG "REFURBISHED" MODELS:

DVD-R120 $59.99
DVD-R130 $54.99
DVD-VR330 $99.99 After Mail In Rebate (DVD/VCR Combo)

My neighbor a couple of weeks back got last years combo model the VR320 for $89.99 & with S&H it came to $101.75 so I'm guessing the 120 & 130 should be even less to ship.

His 320 can record on -RW Discs in either the "VR" Mode or "Video" Mode & with both Modes you can unfinalize them & add or erase programs on the disc.

His we checked out & I posted a Test Report on it & I could'nt find ANY real problems with it including the "Chapter Creator" that was suposed to give other players fits but all the players we tried it on there were really no big problems.

I kicking myself that I din't grab one at that price especially seeing that it would have been another RAM Disc player in the house but now with Christmas coming I can't really afford to go for any new gear at this time :(
Thanks Bill13131313! I think the R130 was the one Fry's had on Black Friday but ran out real fast. The price is very tempting, if nothing else as a backup recorder. From what I recall the R130 does -RW(VR) (woohoo!). I have to re-read the user manual. The R130 is really lightweight weight-wise.
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncaahoops
Thanks Bill13131313! I think the R130 was the one Fry's had on Black Friday but ran out real fast. The price is very tempting, if nothing else as a backup recorder. From what I recall the R130 does -RW(VR) (woohoo!). I have to re-read the user manual. The R130 is really lightweight weight-wise.
Only problem with the Samsung is the recording modes. I had the 100,120 and the 130 and if I remember correctly the recording modes are 1-2-4-6 hours. And the flex mode is not true flex. There is a huge hole betweem the 2-4 hour mode as far as I am concerned. I did not like having to use 4 hour mode for anything above a 2 hour recording. Still the price looks good.
post #19 of 23
Just looked at the 130 Owners Manual & it Records:

-RW "VR"
-RW "Video"
-R "Video"

It doesn't Record using RAM discs but it will Play them :) So I guess even if your unhappy with it as Recorder you still end up with a pretty cheap RAM disc player :D

nextoo is correct about the Recording Speeds & the "Auto" mode for "Timer Recordings" it's just a mix of the the 1,2,4,6 hour recording speeds to make the program fit on the disc & it's not a true Flexiable Recording Mode like Panasonic uses it's just like the Auto Fit that VCRs use to fit a program on a tape.

On my friends Sammy 320 I was not impressed with the 4 Hour Recording Mode at all & I don't think I would ever use it but maybe the new 130's 4 Hour mode has been improved?
post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1313
Just looked at the 130 Owners Manual & it Records:

-RW "VR"
-RW "Video"
-R "Video"

It doesn't Record using RAM discs but it will Play them :) So I guess even if your unhappy with it as Recorder you still end up with a pretty cheap RAM disc player :D

nextoo is correct about the Recording Speeds & the "Auto" mode for "Timer Recordings" it's just a mix of the the 1,2,4,6 hour recording speeds to make the program fit on the disc & it's not a true Flexiable Recording Mode like Panasonic uses it's just like the Auto Fit that VCRs use to fit a program on a tape.

On my friends Sammy 320 I was not impressed with the 4 Hour Recording Mode at all & I don't think I would ever use it but maybe the new 130's 4 Hour mode has been improved?
Yes the gap between the 2-4 hour speed at times can be a deal breaker. I hated to use the 4 hour speed for those 2:10 hr recordings.
post #21 of 23
Thread Starter 
Panny ES-20 is a good non-HDD DVD Recorder- bottom line. It's video quality at XP, SP and especially 4 hour LP- superb and it records full D1 resolution at this. The ES-20, I tested against the HDD models 2005 Pio 531 and 2006 640 subsequent to my original post and the 640 as of yesterday beat the ES-20 at XP and LP. I said earlier that the Pio 640 is king and I still go with that.
post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
Panny ES-20 is a good non-HDD DVD Recorder- bottom line. It's video quality at XP, SP and especially 4 hour LP- superb and it records full D1 resolution at this. The ES-20, I tested against the HDD models 2005 Pio 531 and 2006 640 subsequent to my original post and the 640 as of yesterday beat the ES-20 at XP and LP. I said earlier that the Pio 640 is king and I still go with that.
Thanks for the tests! That's good to know. If I were to buy a HDD-based recorder right now the 640 would be my #1 choice based on MN-modes, -RW(VR) and price. Doing even better at LP is a big plus!
post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextoo
Only problem with the Samsung is the recording modes. I had the 100,120 and the 130 and if I remember correctly the recording modes are 1-2-4-6 hours. And the flex mode is not true flex. There is a huge hole betweem the 2-4 hour mode as far as I am concerned. I did not like having to use 4 hour mode for anything above a 2 hour recording. Still the price looks good.
Thanks for the heads-up on this. I haven't gotten around to going through the user manual yet. A not-true-flex mode would be a big minus if it was at full price, but as you mentioned, at that price and as a backup recorder or RAM-player unit, it's not a deal-breaker.
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