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JVC DLA-RS1 questions answered! - Page 6

post #151 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanhdtv View Post

Are the above calculations based on screen width or diagonal? What is the aspect ratio of the screen 16 x 9 or other. Thanks for your help and input but the devils in the details.

Good point. I edited the post to include "Screen sizes shown diagonal measurements, 16:9 ratio."

Also someone may want to double check I calculated this correctly as I backed into the numbers.
post #152 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenned View Post

All the 1080P PJs at the Expo and at Kei's party look like quality units.

The Pearl's greyscale was way off and imparted a green/grey caste to flesh tones. I'm sure that the gain/bias controls were not set to stock positions. I have never seen an HT quality PJ out of the box with the color so far off. No one should judge the Pearl's color performance by what they saw there. As far as detail and sharpness: I thought that it was superb. This is a very good PJ.

The BenQ also looked very sharp and detailed. The stock color accuracy was vastly better than what we saw on the Pearl. It thought it was slightly sharper, but the Pearl was plenty sharp. The BenQ had excellent PQ. Those interested in DLP should definitely look at this one. Processing by Gennum, I believe. It accepted a 1080P signal at 24 hz for the demo. The type of video that was shown on the Pearl and BenQ didn't allow me to analyze as much of their video performance as the video that was shown on the Sharp and JVC. That is the only reason that I have more details about them in their descriptions. I don't know how the BenQ and Pearl would compare to the Sharp and JVC in a side by side. I was impressed with all of them.

The Sharp 20000. I thought it also had a great image. I was surprised that it produced a bright enough image on the 110" 1.3 gain Stewart screen. It was set to High Contrast iris and High bulb power. The Sharp looked like it had been calibrated pretty close to D65, but tilting slightly towards green/blue. IMO it was slightly sharper than the RS1, but the difference was negligible and would not be a deciding factor for me. Objects in motion on the Sharp remained slightly sharper than they did on the RS1, but I would never have realised this if they had not been side by side. This also would not be a deciding factor for me. The black background on the Credits screen at the end of U571 looked a little darker on the Sharp than on the RS1. I did not see nor account for the ambient light that Mark described. That may have influenced what I saw. In very dark scenes the Sharp had good shadow detail, but the same details were brighter on the RS1. This made them more visible and made the black background appear slightly darker than it did on the Sharp. There was very little grey haze in the Sharps blacks and even less in the RS1's. When the Sharp was set to Low Contrast iris, it was clearly brighter than the RS1. When it was set to High Contrast iris, it was clearly dimmer. I would estimate the Sharp was making 7-8 fL, which is bright enough to be watchable, but will soon be too dim after some bulb wear. Both PJ's had about 50 hours on new bulbs. I thought the Sharp had a very impressive image. It should be paired with a smaller screen or a higher gain screen than the 110" Studiotek, IMO.

The RS1 prototype was farther from D65 than the Sharp was. Clouds had a visibly pink caste to them and flesh tones were overly golden. It was far enough off D65 that I found it distracting. The good news is that the corrections to these inaccuracies should actually increase the brightness of the projector at 100 ire without affecting the black level. I detected no color caste at Black. I detected no uniformity problems great enough to be visible in the one movie that I saw. White was clearly brighter on the RS1 than it was on the Sharp (Sharp set to High Contrast & High Bulb Power). There are no bulb power or iris settings on the RS1. (A HINT TO JVC) A bulb power setting would be a welcome addition as it provides a way to keep image brightness more constant over the life of the bulb. The Normal gamma setting is nominally 2.2, and thats how it looked to me. The other three gamma settings have yet to be determined. Fan noise was pretty loud, but Rob, the JVC rep. stated that the production model of the RS1 would be no louder than the HD10K, which is about average in fan noise, I think (I haven't measured an HD10K). This remains to be seen. The Sharp was much quieter. The RS1 vents from the front. The RS1 has gain and bias controls so that it can be fully calibrated in the field. If I remember correctly the RS1 has color controls that should allow a calibrator to remap the Primary/Secondary colors to match the applicable standards. The image from each panel can be shifted in single pixel increments vertically and horizontally, so that misconvergence can be adjusted to be less than a single pixel. JVC claims 700 lumens at 15K:1 on/off CR after calibration to D65. We will have to see if that pans out to be accurate when the production models are released. Be cautious about selecting a screen until the brightness of the production samples is known. In the past, JVC has been pretty accurate with its specs. Shadow detail was exceptional in the Normal gamma setting. The image was very sharp and detailed overall. The zoom has a very wide ratio and the amount of lens shift available is huge. This PJ should fit into the vast majority of HTs. JVC stated that the RS1's light output is constant at all zoom settings. The RS1 has Gennum processing and can accept a 1080P signal at 24 hz. There is a lot to like about this PJ. JVC is packing a ton of capability and performance into it.

Glenn

Thanks Glenn for your comparison. Looks like there are still enough things in the Sharp XV-Z20000 favour for me to still consider it over the JVC, namely Sharpness & Fan noise. As my screen is 92" Diagonal I think that it would be ideal for brightness. The tilt towards blue is interesting as TommHoffman says with the Sharps CMS you can get it right-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8752134

Just waiting for Greg Rogers review on the Sharp to make my final decision.

But as some else has mentioned the JVC at nearly half the price is sure tempting. Aah what to do. Get the Sharp soon or wait until CES for a more thorough look at a production JVC version.
post #153 of 3254
Maybe I'm just a bit cranky right now, but all of these "Will such and such projector work in my room?" and "Is there enough light coming from such and such projector?" and "Can I mount this projector on its side?" kind of threads really need to stop. Maybe some ambitious person among us could write up a "Will this projector work for me? - a tutorial" thread so that people can figure these things out for themselves. You know, something that explains throw ratios, lumens and ftL calculations, screen gains, fixed offset, vertical lens shift, etc.

This way when someone starts yet another thread asking if this projector is bright enough for a 100" screen, we can just point him to the tutorial so that he can figure it out for himself and maybe even learn something in the process...

BTW, I am not singling out anyone in this thread (it was actually a poster in another thread that got to me), so please don't take this personally.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day - Show a man how to fish and you feed him for the rest of his life."
post #154 of 3254
Thread Starter 
RS1 vs Sharp, Marantz, Pearl and HD10K

I promised a comparison between these machines, please keep in mind that these are subjective and very cursory. The meaningful comparisons will be done by those lucky few who get a production version of the RS1 and can put it through it's paces in their own environment. But here is my thoughts nonetheless:

RS1 vs Sharp 20K
The easy comparison is the Sharp vs RS1 because it was a side by side demonstration. I thought that the Sharp looked good and other than the blue tint and the fact that RBE was prevalent and very distracting it throws a great image. For critical viewing the only mode that makes sense on the Sharp is the high contrast mode (iris stopped down). Side by side the image on the RS1 was a little better in just about every respect. The biggest difference between the two is that the high dynamic range (on/off CR) of the RS1 really allows the small bright detail in dark scenes to pop. When the Sharp is in the high bulb, high contrast mode the RS1 has something like 2x the lumens and 3x better on/off. I've heard people say that LCOS has a veil over it that hides detail compared to DLP, but for those who saw it the opposite seemed to be true. I wouldn't ever say the Sharp had a dull appearance, but next to the RS1 it did look a little dull but again not by a huge amount.

RS1 vs HD10K.
As I mentioned earlier the image on the HD10K was truly exceptional. I can't imagine someone not being happy with the image this thing throws. I thought that the image on the RS1 was *very* similar between these machines but they weren't side by side and they were shown with different sources and the HD10K benefited from the Schneider anamorphic lens which increased pixel resolution and brightness. Despite these differences it was clear that the RS1 showed more detail in the low APL scenes owing to it's 5x better on/off CR. It didn't seem as dramatic as one would expect though, but then again as I mentioned in Part2 we weren't really seeing the true black level on this projector because of the rope lighting. I know the grey scale tracking and color gamut on the HD10K should be a little better and I looked for clear differences but I was hard pressed to see a significant difference. I'd love to see a side by side with these two projectors though because they are so similar looking that it would come closest to keeping everything equal but ANSI and on/off CR so that a person could gauge the impact of just those two aspects of PQ.

RS1 vs Marantz
As I mentioned earlier in this thread I saw the Marantz 11S1 the day before the Expo and I thought it was exceptional. The RBE is much less prevalent than on the Sharp and MC6 has pointed out that this is due to the new color wheel on the Marantz. This is the first 1-chip DLP that I've seen where the RBE was minimized to the point where i would consider it for my HT. The image was razor sharp, actually too sharp for my tastes. I like to sit close to the screen as I feel this adds an enveloping experience and it's one of the big strengths of the pixel density in 1080p. When I sit at ~1x screen width the edginess of the Marantz gives it a digital sort of look to it. Although as I mentioned I don't think a person could go wrong with it. Price aside, it throws a different sort of an image to the RS1 but I can see why many people will prefer it. I also thought it was a step up from the Sharp 20k.

RS1 vs Pearl
I wish that I had a chance to see the Pearl side by side with the RS1. I had viewed the Pearl about a week prior to the EH Expo and I provided my comments on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8867560

I thought that the Pearl throws an outstanding image and I didn't see any uniformity problems (black or white) that I expected to see. It throws an image that is remarkably similar to my HD2K with the exception that the contrast is better on the Pearl in the darker scenes. I can't imagine someone not being happy with this projector and I found it honest of Tom to also speak favorably of this projector and reaffirm what I was thinking.

The Pearl vs RS1 comparison will likely hinge on the merits of native CR over a DI and I think that the RS1 will have an advantage here, but I think a side-by-side is needed to gauge the differences accurately and I think they may be more subtle than people may realize. I don't think a person can go wrong with either projector and for the price both are stand outs. I'm also hopeful that the QC on the RS1 vs the Pearl will be less of a crapshoot as far as convergence, shading, etc. is concerned although as I mentioned in the review of the Pearl the uniformity was good and much better than my expectations.

Final thoughts on the Comparison
It's amazing to see the progress that has been made in delivering such outstanding PQ. I thought that all of the 1080p projectors at the show including the lower cost LCD Mitsibusihi that was also at the Expo threw really good images. LCD, DLP and LCOS all seem to be converging towards the same PQ nirvana, but at very different price points. These technologies are becoming more similar image-wise than they are different. It's clear that we are rapidly approaching an era of diminishing returns as far as PQ and projector specs are concerned. I'm not sure where this is going to lead us hobbyists but one thing is clear - setup and calibration is becoming one of the biggest differentiating factors in image comparison between projectors even across projection technology.

When I spoke with Dr. Bleha at JVC (who co-invented the original LC light-valve technology and has helped to perfect it over the years). We both remarked how far image quality has come over the years. I asked him that now that we have 1080p and 15000:1 on/off CR what's next? We both joked that to get the same jump in improvements that we've grown used to seeing in recent years that we'll need to go to hologram technology or something

A couple other notes from JVC and the Expo
The RS1 is the first product in JVC's new Reference Series line. Expect further products( RS2, 3,4, etc.) to come out that vary in key specs from the RS1. What I'm personally interested in is a higher-end projector that is a replacement for the Qualia and HD10K and better in every respect. JVC also recognized that there is a niche for this machine and I expect them to eventually release this sort of a machine but I don't think it will be for awhile and this shouldn't be a concern for those buying the RS1 and worrying about the RS2 (or whatever it will be called) being announced immediately thereafter.

JVC reiterated what Tom had said earlier, that the wiregrid polarizing technology used in the PBS is what really has leapfrogged CR spec. In earlier posts someone mentioned that WG polarizors came out about two years ago and they were wondering why it took so long for LCOS manufacturers to adopt them. I believe that it was Dr. Bleha that said that they saw the dramatic improvements that it made two years ago but then they had to go back and redesign the panels to maximize the gains that could be realized by the WG PBS. Although JVC was being coy about it, enough details have come out that it's clear that the new panels are improved in just about every respect. New LC material, thinner LC layer, smaller gap between LC molecules, smaller die sizes, better uniformity, better fill ratio, etc. etc.

The new digital backplane looks like it will be the future for JVC products. This is a departure in that the pro line has always used the analog backplane and the consumer the digital. As I mentioned in part 1, I looked hard to spot any contouring or banding problems and didn't find any. We also froze the image to look for any unsteadiness in the pixels and didn't find any. It's my belief although not confirmed by JVC (Tom feel free to chime in) that the digital backplane allows more flexibility in the way the panels are driven and in particular it facilitates the higher panel refresh rate which removes some of the flicker at 1080p48 that some HD10K users are seeing.

There were also some reports circulating around about 17000:1 on/off, but JVC doesn't know where these came from so add this to the unsubstantiated rumor list.
post #155 of 3254
Quote:


I asked him that now that we have 1080p and 15000:1 on/off CR what's next?

For fans of larger screens, now that we have decent HD sources & projectors, I'm really hoping the "next thing" is to significantly increase the brightness of the sub $10K projectors and keep the color / CR performance without having to use screens with high gain.

Regards,
Dean
post #156 of 3254
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-ILA1952 View Post

All:

Thank you for all of your input and comments regarding the DLA-RS1 projector. EHX was a great opportunity for JVC to talk as well as listen to our customer's. As a manufacturer, understanding our customer is a focus for the Professional Products Co. Display Division.

As JVC moves forward to delivering the RS1, Tom Stites will be plead to respond to your questions.

Lastly, what a great party!!! Much thanx for the invite and kudos to Kei for putting this together.

Lon Mass

Hi Lon,

It was great meeting you at the Expo and the AVS/DC sponsored party. I appreciate all of the information and feedback and it's obvious that JVC has a popular product on their hands. Congratulations to you and everyone at JVC who were responsible for delivering this unprecedented level of technology at this price point.

I should also point out to the forum members that Lon is Tom's boss and he is the director of the Display Division at JVC. I think that his prior experience at Sony has a lot to do with how much bang for the buck is represented in the RS1 and I'm expecting continued success at JVC.

Thanks again,
Mark
post #157 of 3254
Does anyone know whether or not the PQ or lumen output of RS1 would be diminished if one is near the horizontal limit of the lens shift (34%)?
post #158 of 3254
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

This is providing that the unit is fed 24p natively, correct? As of the moment, understanding if the on-board scaler will do 3:2 reversal from 60i sources is still TBD I believe.

Also, apologies if I missed it, but I assume this is tacit acknolwedgment that the unit will accept a 24p input. Is this on both HDMI and component?

Yup, direct 1080p24 input is currently the only way to remove telecine judder although JVC is interested in the 1080i60->1080p24 3-2 removal if the Gennum 9351 and their architecture supports it. I assume that 1080p24 will be over HDMI but I'm not sure what the capabilities of the component interface are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanbob View Post

For fans of larger screens, now that we have decent HD sources & projectors, I'm really hoping the "next thing" is to significantly increase the brightness of the sub $10K projectors and keep the color / CR performance without having to use screens with high gain.

Good point, I think this may be addressed by later RS series projectors although this is just speculation on my part.
post #159 of 3254
Mark, more great information!

Thank you for the time you've spent on this!
post #160 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-ILA1952 View Post

All:

Thank you for all of your input and comments regarding the DLA-RS1 projector. EHX was a great opportunity for JVC to talk as well as listen to our customer's. As a manufacturer, understanding our customer is a focus for the Professional Products Co. Display Division.

As JVC moves forward to delivering the RS1, Tom Stites will be plead to respond to your questions.

Lastly, what a great party!!! Much thanx for the invite and kudos to Kei for putting this together.

Lon Mass

Great first Post Lon!

Welcome to the forum. It's great to have a strong JVC presence again!
post #161 of 3254
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

Mark, more great information!

Thank you for the time you've spent on this!

Thanks Tryg! As a person on the prebuy list I have a vested interest in this projector. I also wish that you could have made it to the Expo. Try to make it to CES though and I'll be glad to help you with the top 10 CES booth babe thread
post #162 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Thanks Tryg! As a person on the prebuy list I have a vested interest in this projector. I also wish that you could have made it to the Expo. Try to make it to CES though and I'll be glad to help you with the top 10 CES booth babe thread

I'll be at CES...And I'll need a wing man
post #163 of 3254
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

I'll be at CES...And I'll need a wing man

Great! It will be fun athough I think it will be hard for us to stay out of trouble
post #164 of 3254
I am hoping lasers is the next step after this leap. Having a stable light source with respect to brightness and color would simplify a consumers life. I think we as consumers should be less tight with our money with reagards to buying new lamps but then there is the hazzle of recalibration.

Many thanks to Mark and to JVC for providing so much information.
post #165 of 3254
Ohlson- Did you go to the big projector shoot out in Sweden as I didn't see your thoughts anywhere?
post #166 of 3254
"Oh damn... the pearl can be tweaked to look like the RS1... I was hoping for a noticeably better projector than the Sony Pearl or Ruby..."

Looks like JVC was unfortunate enough to get an especially good Pearl example

Mark, thanks for the tremendous amount of great information you've supplied for us.

For the first time in my life, I'm on a pre-order list for something brand new!
post #167 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Great! It will be fun athough I think it will be hard for us to stay out of trouble

post #168 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


Mark, thanks for the tremendous amount of great information you've supplied for us.

For the first time in my life, I'm on a pre-order list for something brand new!

Me too!

While I saw the prototype at CEDIA and had already made up my mind to get on the pre-order list, I really appreciate all the details and method in which you handled the questions. You have filled in many of the information gaps on this projector!
post #169 of 3254
Where do we go from native 15000:1 on / off CR and this level of performance?

To me the answer is obvious - even better on / off CR, much better ANSI contrast (I haven't seen any definitive ANSI CR numbers for the JVC, but it has generally been an achilles heel for LCOS tech pjs) and probably the inevitable addition of an iris, not to mention more pjs with the ability to be really bright while maintaining high contrast.

With sufficient brightness, some of us would definitely give up some brightness for even better contrast be it in a user controllable but non-dynamic iris or in a Ruby level DI / adjustable iris implementation. The low end of the brightness scale (and probably the high end of the contrast scale) in a perfect world would be much higher than it is nowadays. I think new light source technologies are as important now as new panel improvements.

Extending the color gamut once "deep color" sources are available would be nice too.

I think the "end of the line" projector is as far away today as it was a few years ago - the march of progress is inevitable. That's not to say this new level of performance isn't fantastic, and much happier to stay satisfied with for years to come!
post #170 of 3254
Spizz
I was there. I hope someone will post about it with pictures. Just not to get too off topic here the short summary is as follows.
Projection Design Action! model 3 1080p was the winner by most accounts.
My favourite moment was Marantz 11S1 fed true 1080p material of godlike quality.

sethk
Make the difference between size of color gamut and precision at pin pointing color within that gamut. Today we are still stuck at 4:2:0 component video with 8 bits. It is sad is it not?
post #171 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Spizz
I was there. I hope someone will post about it with pictures. Just not to get too off topic here the short summary is as follows.
Projection Design Action! model 3 1080p was the winner by most accounts.
My favourite moment was Marantz 11S1 fed true 1080p material of godlike quality.

sethk
Make the difference between size of color gamut and precision at pin pointing color within that gamut. Today we are still stuck at 4:2:0 component video with 8 bits. It is sad is it not?

Oh come on Ohlson, you can't just give a 2 line summary for a big shoot-out like that! please start a new threat for it! I think a lot of people would be interested in reading your review, consider you are not only one of the few whom has the knowledge and also unbiased to the technologies

Mike
post #172 of 3254
Boy, this has been a breath-taking thread! My pj decision has been made (I'm on the RS1 preorder) unless by some chance Samsung or Infocus show an impressive 1080p dlp at the CES that can be mounted 'low' and has a 'short throw', a possibility that I think is very remote. I'm really quite excited, since this will be my first FP (coming from a 73" Mits 1080p dlp rptv). Coupled with a 119" HP screen (or maybe even a bit larger), this is going to be a very happy 66th birthday present to me this coming March!
post #173 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

EAT YOU HEART OUT TRYG!!!

I at least have age on Tom
post #174 of 3254
Happy 66th Millerwill! I am also on the preorder list, and am verry excited about this unit. Cant wait to get it into my HT!
post #175 of 3254
Thread Starter 
As I mentioned, I thought the overal look of the image on the Pearl is very similar to other DILA products including the RS1. I don't think a person can go wrong with either the Pearl or the RS1, but I went back and reread what Tom posted and I think it's relevant to those who are on the fence deciding between the two projectors:

"the color and overall picture quality on the two was such that you might have thought you were looking at two RS1's or two Pearl's...this on a variety of

medium to high APL scenes. With a total fade to black or a very dark starfield, the RS1 was noticeably blacker in any Iris mode and certainly as bright in a bright scene." The bold accents are mine. I thought that the comments about the black level and overall brightness are important enough to requote. Having not seen the side to side comparison, my expectation was that the DI and the 15000:1 CR spec on the Pearl would translate to similar black levels between the two projectors but that the RS1 would benefit from better instantaneous dynamic range. If as Tom points out the RS1 is delivering better black levels and better instantaneous CR, then this is well worth the small difference in price between the two projectors - at least to those who have light controlled theaters.

Another thing that I forgot to add in my posts was that I asked several of the JVC rep's if they were worried about all of this technical information about wire grid technology and redesigned panels being leaked out. They kind of shrugged and said that they know that Sony has stuff in the works too. So the display wars continue
post #176 of 3254
Mark I have a 135 inch diagonal GrayHawk screen in a light controlled room do you think the RS1 would be bright enough for my setup?

Earl
post #177 of 3254
something else worth pointing out.

The pearl can have the higher lumens or the higher contrast but not both (not talking about di). The throw will determine which one you get.

You can should be able to get both at the same time with the rs1 =)
post #178 of 3254
I have a grayhawk and I dont think the RS1 would be bright enough for a 135 diag. Without going into calculations I would want more than 1.3 with a screen that was bigger than 110 diag
post #179 of 3254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Having not seen the side to side comparison, my expectation was that the DI and the 15000:1 CR spec on the Pearl would translate to similar black levels between the two projectors but that the RS1 would benefit from better instantaneous dynamic range. If as Tom points out the RS1 is delivering better black levels and better instantaneous CR, then this is well worth the small difference in price between the two projectors - at least to those who have light controlled theaters.

The Pearl, unlike the Ruby, only delivers 10,000:1 d65 calibrated. There has been speculation on if the differences might be visable in a direct Pearl v Ruby comparison.
post #180 of 3254
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

The Pearl, unlike the Ruby, only delivers 10,000:1 d65 calibrated. There has been speculation on if the differences might be visable in a direct Pearl v Ruby comparison.

Thanks Hoya, this clarifies why Tom was seeing a lower floor on the RS1.
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