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Silver Fire mix - Page 15

post #421 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post


To stop the "action" you "Pause" the DVD, or Freeze the Video. THEN you set up and take your shot.

(I was almost embarrassed to say that.)

Thanks MMan. I'll take some of your advice, but this is something I understood intuitively. All the shots were taken from a paused video!
post #422 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Screenies are not considered "scientific" so in the least most try to take 'em based on the above technique so as to maintain consistency....or do so after getting razzed into it.

Alright, screenies in next post. I had to pull out my good camera and charge its battery for this! Sorry my stand wasn't sitting level on the floor.
All these are off of my wall. I haven't done anything to it. No sanding or painting. White walls all around room. I taped and papered off the window.
post #423 of 1426
grr.. I think it's not showing my pictures because of the high resolution.

You can go here to see them:

http://picasaweb.google.com/heislord5/JunkPhotos
post #424 of 1426
Try a free Photobucket account
http://photobucket.com/

Images are downsized automatically when uploaded. Even a Free account offer "Gigs" of space and Bulk Uploading.

Those images are "crazy better" now with the use of proper technique. Save those "frame references' so you can re-do the exact same image after painting so as to make a direct "Before/After" comparison.

Your getting there...soon we'll be taking advice from you!
post #425 of 1426
Is there a correlation between the "flavors" of the SL formula and screen gain? In other words, is one of the formulas (on some default background or base) the equivalent of a 1.1 gain?
post #426 of 1426
Nice to see this thread got kickstarted

Welcome Back PB We missed you.
post #427 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by izayn View Post

Last question before I get the sprayer and ingredients.

HD80/ Living room Screen Size 88" Diag (out of room to get the full 100")
Substrate Canvas - Mirror
SF Type/Coats - Lite/3-4 Coats
Kilz2 - No if using Acrylic Mirror


Sp4805 / Bed room

Substrate Canvas - Mirror Screen Size 47-50" Diag
SF Type/Coats - HG/3-4 Coats
Kilz2 - No if using Acrylic Mirror

Correct?

I'm in Chicago, Do you know where I can hunt down those Acrylic Mirrors at that size>

Thanks MM you've been a lot of help...I can't wait to get going

Thanks
Randy aka Izayn

I would like to see this addressed, as I am a noob and have finally (after reading so much my eyes are bleeding) to go the silver fire route, and need to know if going the mirror route is worth my time/money.

Many thanks to all you madmen, Steve
post #428 of 1426
Thread Starter 
Steve,

if you are in the chicago area... i personally get plastics products (acrylic mirrors included) from E&T Plastics. (at approximately 355 & North Ave)
post #429 of 1426
Thanks PB Maxx for responding, but the original poster is in Chitown (I'm in Bay City,MI). The part I wanted addressed is the need (or not) to do primer on mirror substrate, or just mix and spray silver fire directly onto mirror.
If no prime is ok, then I will seek out a mirror, but if I have to prime either way what advantage is there in paying the extra $ for a mirror.
Or am I missing something?

Thanks in advance, Steve
BTW, BenQ W5000 with ambient light issues
post #430 of 1426
Priming the mirror would kill any optical effect the mirror may provide. Shoot your screen mix directly on the mirror. The more translucent the mix, the more effect the mirror will have.
post #431 of 1426
Thanks to all of you folks for responding. My next question is
related to silver fire itself as an ambient light-issue resolving
compound.
Short question: Is it?
Will spray coating the said mirror result in a usable screen for the W5000 in an ambient light challenged environment?

Thanks again, Steve
post #432 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by liquisonic View Post

Thanks to all of you folks for responding. My next question is
related to silver fire itself as an ambient light-issue resolving
compound.
Short question: Is it?
Will spray coating the said mirror result in a usable screen for the W5000 in an ambient light challenged environment?

Thanks again, Steve

Yes.
Yes.

Tell us about your plans to spray...what sprayer?...will the Mirror be "shot" in place?......what lighting patter do you have?....Cans...Lamps...restricted Windows...? Any "directed" ambient light that washes across the Screen and whose energy as Foot Lamberts exceeds the Projected / Reflective output of the screen will most certainly affect the image's contrast to some degree.

Any ambient light, directed or otherwise.....whose as foot lamberts hitting the surface of the screen falls under the level of reflected output of the screen will have of course, a lessor effect, with the screen making Blacks appear deeper.

In the "Dark" the Silver Fire paint's inclination toward Contrast boosting is steered toward producing a extremely dynamic image, one that is spectacularly "3-D".

Now that's Silver Fire...the Paint. You'll be making a Silver Fire Light Fusion screen. With Light Fusion, as you go into the darker Grays...your surface coating can be thinner, allowing for the needed absorption. (think; Rear Projection) The mirror's collected & reflected light returns attenuated, and thereby can re-fuse with the original surface level image.( ie: Light Fusion) without over saturating the original image...but rather increasing the graduating levels of varying degrees of contrast across the color spectrum.

It doesn't take much. But it does require a "balance" be struck between Lighting - PJ Output/Contrast - Screen Composition.

Fortunately there exists a widely variable range of Silver Fire Formulas...all based upon non-variable Reflective and Viscosity Bases, and multi-variable amounts of colorant.

Common sense suggests that if you have a LOT of ambient light, going with a Dark Silver Fire, on top of Flat White Paint, will still require enough lumens to make it all work. The advantage provided by Silver Fire is that it not only "works;, it looks good doing it. But you still must work to prevent "directed Ambient Light" from hitting the screen...and of course any degree of direct light. Eyeball "Spot" cans near the screen, and normal "Spots" everywhere else near the Screen will effectively keep the perimeter of the screen dark and that's all that is needed to then combat the ambient light that spreads inward toward the screen from elsewhere.

The BenQ W5000 has 1200 stated ANSI lumens, but puts out between 350-600 lumens if you employ the "Brilliant Color" mode.(depending upon where/how open you set the Len's iris) But as a DLP, it's consistant Contrast is always greater than a LCD and renders a sharp...if not THE sharpest image around.

Such performance is exactly what SF Light Fusion can most benefit as far as providing excellent performance in ambient light. I'd make mt final suggestion as to what ratio of SF Colorant to apply based upon your Screen size and throw distance. The BQ doesn't have a lot of adjustment in that, so choose wisely, and try to keep at the forward 1/3 of the Len's focal length.
post #433 of 1426
Thanks MM. If my hands could type as fast as my voice could speak, I would have a nice detailed reply for you, but since my typing is just above "hunt and peck" LOL, this will have to suffice. Also, my brain is riddled with ADD, so if my post is NOT scattered about, I will be pleasantly surprised, so here goes:
1. Screen will be sprayed before backing with cardboard or quarter-inch ply out in the garage, and before framing with either flat black wood, or cloth wrapped frame of some sort.
2. Sprayer? glad you asked, as I've read that Wagner is the way to go, but that the preference of the TYPE of Wagner has changed, so please update me as to the latest and greatest please.
3. My lighting pattern(s) are based on/dependent upon my overall plan to turn my basement into a combination Recording Studio/Theater. More on this later in the post.

I surfed over to proj-cen and what the calculator shows for my W5000 with a basic 4'x8' mirror sheet is that the diag will be 98" (due to vertical limits) and that using a 14'4" throw with a seating distance of 10' to 16' would require an ambient light to be 9% or less assuming that the material is Movies/TV/Games combined with a 1.4 gain screen... whew! (so far, so good)

Soo... my lighting will be basic ceiling spots (cans) as to allow theater watchers book-reading abilities, casual watchers their ability to see things on a coffee table etc. and also allow studio musicians to see what they are doing while they are tracking etc.

I really know what you are talking about when you speak of "balance" MM, and hopefully you can envision what I have going on here. Do you have a recommendation for me? Or do you need more specifics? And if so, could you let me know?

Finally, what would you recommend as far as colorant ratio given my situation.

I REALLY appreciate the help I am getting from this forum, and KUDO'S to all of the knowledgeable people who have helped this mid MI guy out.

Thanks again, Steve
post #434 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by liquisonic View Post

Thanks MM. If my hands could type as fast as my voice could speak, I would have a nice detailed reply for you, but since my typing is just above "hunt and peck" LOL, this will have to suffice. Also, my brain is riddled with ADD, so if my post is NOT scattered about, I will be pleasantly surprised, so here goes:
1. Screen will be sprayed before backing with cardboard or quarter-inch ply out in the garage, and before framing with either flat black wood, or cloth wrapped frame of some sort.

I'd spray it "after" backing....but before trim. It would be very easy to make a 89" x 52" Backerboard. You accomplish three things.
  1. A stiffer supportive assembly for painting onto (ie; Flatter)
  2. A Framework that affords a Handling edge away fron the Screen's surface.
  3. A edge to run off of when painting that doesn't create a "vortex"
  4. A edge to attach the Screen to the wall using a absolute minimum of fasteners.

Quote:


2. Sprayer? glad you asked, as I've read that Wagner is the way to go, but that the preference of the TYPE of Wagner has changed, so please update me as to the latest and greatest please.

I've always used the Control Spray....but any better "Separate Motor" /Turbine HVLP Gun that has an even better ability to atomize paint might be all the more better...if not less expensive. Recently a find was made for a Separate Tank/Gun Electric HVLP rig from Harbor Freight for only $69.95! Is it good? Idunno...just heard about it....but it might be.

But I do know for certain the Wagner Control spray will produce virtually perfect finishes when it's set up and used correctly....and of course we would do it...or have it any other way, right?


Quote:


3. My lighting pattern(s) are based on/dependent upon my overall plan to turn my basement into a combination Recording Studio/Theater. More on this later in the post.

I surfed over to proj-cen and what the calculator shows for my W5000 with a basic 4'x8' mirror sheet is that the diag will be 98" (due to vertical limits) and that using a 14'4" throw with a seating distance of 10' to 16' would require an ambient light to be 9% or less assuming that the material is Movies/TV/Games combined with a 1.4 gain screen... whew! (so far, so good)

Soo... my lighting will be basic ceiling spots (cans) as to allow theater watchers book-reading abilities, casual watchers their ability to see things on a coffee table etc. and also allow studio musicians to see what they are doing while they are tracking etc.

You've definitely got the idea. "Pedistal Spots" that shoot a narrow defined cone of light (usually halogen in nature) can frame a Screen wall to each side while not intruding upon the Screen's light dispersing ability.

Quote:


I really know what you are talking about when you speak of "balance" MM, and hopefully you can envision what I have going on here. Do you have a recommendation for me? Or do you need more specifics? And if so, could you let me know?

A floor plan or sketch w/measurements and lighting locations if you please.....

No really...you've done good, and considered many important things...so if planning for contingencies, known and unknown is considered "self help", your better prepared than most at this point.

Quote:


Finally, what would you recommend as far as colorant ratio given my situation.

1.5 oz Colorant to the prescribed amount of Bases

Quote:


I REALLY appreciate the help I am getting from this forum, and KUDO'S to all of the knowledgeable people who have helped this mid MI guy out.

Thanks again, Steve

Your welcome from us all, Steve. Be sure to let me know when your starting the paint, or if you need a diagram of a workable mounting board.
post #435 of 1426
Thank You x3... Now to find a mirror 4'8' in my area, I've got a few leads, but if anyone in the know has a suggestion, well...
Steve
post #436 of 1426
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by liquisonic View Post

Thank You x3... Now to find a mirror 4'8' in my area, I've got a few leads, but if anyone in the know has a suggestion, well...
Steve

steve,

make your way south to rochester hills, michigan and get a sheet from
total plastics. visit http://www.totalplastics.com/about_us/contact

half way down the page you see the contact info the rochester hills...

you'll want to call ahead of time to verify stock, prepare the order, and have them cut it down to your specific size before your arrival.
post #437 of 1426
liquisonic,

If it's feasible for you to do so, you might want to spray a smaller, cheaper mirror to see if you think it's worth going with the larger more expensive mirror. "Door mirrors" that fit that need are available from Lowe's and Home Depot (and probably many other stores). The one in the link below is only $7. Spraying this mirror would give you a very good idea of what a larger mirror would look like, but at a fraction of the price. It would also provide you with a bit of practice if you've never sprayed a mirror before.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100548947
post #438 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpmaker View Post

liquisonic,

If it's feasible for you to do so, you might want to spray a smaller, cheaper mirror to see if you think it's worth going with the larger more expensive mirror. It would also provide you with a bit of practice if you've never sprayed a mirror before.

The first suggestion really doesn't have much merit in that a smaller mirror cannot adaquately duplicate the same "Fusion" effect found in a larger representation. This has always been the case, and ignored by many seeking to discover if "light Fusion" is a valid concept. An important aspect in the Performance of a Light Fusion screen is how the infusion/dispersion of collected light within the "Gap" between the back side of the paint and the reflective mirrored surface helps equalize the PJs tendency to create a 'warm center" that is somewhat brighter than the edges of the screen. few PJs have anything close to an equal light output at the edges of the projected image (JVC's RS-20 is one) and that has been, as much as anything, resonsible for all the "Half gain" talk so adamantly attributed to the Screen's performance. Light Fusion really does help combat that tendency.
Determining as to if Light Fusion is a desirable concept to consider has been answered for several years now, and is questioned these days usually by those simply wanting to take it's relevancy or validity down a notch.....or "shatter" it altogether. *

That's really funny to question it because so much of so many Screen applications...DIY AND Mfg....look to and depend upon the interaction between a underlying substrate (Darker or Lighter) that varies from the Shade/Color/Hue/Reflectiveness of the Topmost Reflective layer. And those surfaces are not nearly as efficient at gather, and returning light as a mirror can be.
* Harp, I'm not referring to you here...just stating that fact in a "general' sense.

At this conjecture, the second suggestion is the most valuable, but still not very helpful in that the size won't allow much real practice. Instead, getting a 4' x 8' sheet of Thrifty White Hardboard would be the ticket.

Then....if it wasn't boogered up too badly with "practice", it would serve two additional purposes...a viable example by which a direct comparison could be made, that between a "real Mirrored-Light Fusion-" screen, and one that is "White Fusion".

The second purpose? A great gift for one of the OP's lustful friends.


It's time to "Gitter Dun".
post #439 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

clark 17,

i simply wouldn't make any judgements from a 12" x 15" inch sample. in fact, i personally use 2ft and 3ft samples and even then i don't entirely trust what i see. you really don't know entirely how it it'll translate into a 100"+ screen.

having said that... here's an example of a slightly ligther BW screen (background) and a silver fire screen (2.5oz of colorant).



the silver fire (inset) black levels are ever so slightly less that than the BW but what it gains in color vibrancy and white levels gives you a screen with greater detail and contrast.

--- for you... i'd recommend a silver fire lite screen using (1.75oz) of the colorant.


Not trying to start anything, just a very honest question(s).

You say there is more detail with SF... clearly there is more detail with the background screen based on that screenie. Just look at the parasail and there is no way anyone can say that test panel has 'greater detail and contrast'. What is the main screen? Looking at the SF panel and the parasail I cannot see any of the detail in the chute, for example the ribbing is completely lost as compared to the main screen. That certainly isn't greater detail and contrast, it is much worse.

I take it the panel way off to the right with no real image other than the water is the lighter BW. Would it be possible to see the panels swapped places to see the other test panel with the parasail? I really can't tell much from that comparison other than the main screen has better detail than the SF test panel, and the test panel to the far right looks more like any ocean or open water that I personally have seen. Trust me on that one, I have seen oceans all over the world- from the middle of the Atlantic, to the Med, to the carribean... Greece, the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea... so I'm pretty sure I can say I know what a variety of open water looks like from a variety of places.

Question, why does the far right panel have water up in the letterbox area? Was that digitally cropped in there? Just asking because that does look odd.

And before anyone goes ballistic, it's just an honest request. I personally think the main screen looks the best, the SF panel has no detail compared to the main screen, and the upper right panel looks more like what I have seen with open water.

My assessment is the whites are blooming and severly crushed on the SF panel and again, the main screen may have darker looking water but the whites hold their own against the SF panel. The third panel has the most realistic looking water, but other than that absolutely nothing can be gleened from that comparison.

Now... the SF panel very well may look a lot better if the projector is calibrated to it. I started a thread about the importance of calibration but that got dubbed 'Calibration- Possibly the Least important thing to read...'. I still whole heartedly stand behind that thread, but that is also another thread.

What I see here though is that a recalibration may make the SF screen look better, but based solely on this comparison, it didn't fare well to the main screen, and nothing can be determined based on the position of the far right test panel.

That's not a slam. I'm just saying that I don't see any better detail or contrast. Conversely I see over saturated colors and blooming whites. Again it may look better if the projector was calibrated to that panel, and also the far right panel didn't get a fair shake.

I happen to completely agree with pb on something, and that is test panels are very hard to determine how a full size screen will perform. I also make a full size screen if something looks promising. In that we are in full agreement on and I never was a big fan of small test panels, especially when a person tries comparing two vastly different shades (not saying pb did that here, but I have seen other's try to compare a white screen to a gray screen many times).

Also I am not saying SF is bad, just that based on what was shown I just don't see the better detail and more vivid image. I see overblown colors and whites. Again, if the PJ was recalibrated it might be a totally different story, but that's not what was presented and said.

PB can you do a bigger test panel of that SF sample and recalibrate? Also it would be nice to see a bigger split screen shot of the far right panel too, and with the projector recalibrated (if needed).

I will say though that it is a very bright screen sample. It just doesn't do justice to it in that screenie in my opinion, and the far right sample really shows nothing other than water. Get some color in the shot in that area or move the panel. (A screen or test panel is always going to look the best at the center of the projected image)

Don't take any offense, and this was not a thread hijack. I really would like to see the SF panel under better conditions. That shot definitely doesn't show it off at its best.
post #440 of 1426
Taken as seen in the Photo as it posts up, wbassets's comments would indeed seem correct. However more than one thing must be considered here. no.#1 is the Light output (reflection) of the screen.

Make note that in the representation, the BW screen is "LIGHTER" not "darker" in shade than the SF screen. Yet it (the SF) is clearly reflecting light to a greater degree.


First off, I'm sure that when being presented with the two screens in that presentation, the camera's light metering was primarily centered on the screen. The center is a darker area and because of the Camera's setting the lens aperture in a more "open' setting, the image directly to the side is being presented as being all the more brighter than it really is. Also, no matter what else is observed, the whites on the BW screen are most definately crushed down into the "gray" end of the contrast scale. Parachutes are usually very vivid thingees.

In many ways this was to the advantage of the BW screen because otherwise, with the Camera being 'adjusted' to accept the brighter image (SF) the BW screen would have looked positively dim. That still might be happening to some degree, in all due respect to the BW's actual performance parameters.

I'm certain that the "detail" PB was referring to was very present as seen by the eye. I can see it in the detail being rendered in the "waves". In taking screenies, I've always employed a degree of "Zoom" to effectively attenuate the incoming light a bit, simply because I've yet to create, or help create a Screen with a negative gain. Doing so to use such "attenuated" light reflection to improve contrast has been, and will ALWAYS be more detrimental than advantageous. It matters not if the attenuation comes by virtue of a "graying" process afforded by the introduction of a reflective element, unless the percentage of reflectivity is as great as or more so than the degree of attenuation, off the screen luminosity levels will go south.

Silver Metallic has a more controllable effect than does Aluminum in that regard. It requires less adjustment (leastwise the lighter Delta variety) in a mix (adding yellow...not creating a yellow base)

The very fact that the entire base of BW MUST be a yellowish beige to compensate for the extreme nature of the Graying action of aluminum tells the whole story, and had always been at the heart of the issue. The lighter BW efforts came/come about only via the reduction of the percentage of "Aluminum to White" ratios, therein denuding BW of what was it's primary claim to fame, AMBIENT LIGHT performance that still still allowed colors to "PoP".

Here's a challenge for the BW Team. Let's see you come up with a DARK mix...or even a mid-tone Mix that maintains appreciable contrast enhancement without attenuating incoming light to the degree it falls below 1.0 gain levels. Good luck with that. The lighter version that's being "Beta'd" might be "brighter" but it won't be "contrasty" beyond whatever degree of such is introduced via the PJ itself.

(...and why are you Guys so fixated on "bugs"? To my understanding, they are to be considered Pests. )

Hopefully PB can take an image with the camera's metering centered there in the Right Side, and / or from a greater distance while employing more Zoom.
post #441 of 1426
Thread Starter 
it's funny... on one hand you say the whites on the SF are crushed and practically in the same sentence you say they are blooming.

due to the calibration being set for the BW screen ...yes i agree that the whites on the SF panel are a little bit blooming and therefore lose some detail in the ribbing of the parachute.

i've lived around oceans all my life as well, born less than 50ft from the ocean in a village in vietnam in fact. water is my 2nd skin. but with respect to the water and the range of contrast oceans can have, the BW screen here just doesn't compare. so i will agree to disagree with you on that.

as for the comparison itself... the person who did it was avs member bstokes who made a BW screen before realizing it wasn't a good fit for him. he enjoyed the black levels of the BW but found it be lacking in white levels and color vibrancy. therefore, he ended up making a lighter version of the BW screen which he ended up liking much better. he then decided to do a SF panel as a comparison... and his real life conclusion was the BW had slightly better blacks but the SF beat it many other areas.

he later decided to marry what he saw as the advantages of the BW and SF and created a hybrid screen of the two. to him, i commend his willingness to put all the crap flying around this forum aside and engineer what was best for him.

lastly, the forum member i was responding to...clark17...did his own BW panels for comparison (apart from SF) and also found them to be too dark to his liking. i was simply offering a lighter mix for him to consider since he posted on this, the silver fire thread.
post #442 of 1426
What does the final color appear to be
after all components are mixed togeather
mine almost is a light greenish gray,is this normal.
post #443 of 1426
Here is a look at the silver fire color,what do you think.
if this is not right I am not sure what color to add to it
to make it a neutral gray,I am set up and ready to
shoot it,if this is beyond fixing I have Black Widow
mixed from a while back I know it is right,any thoughts.
LL
LL
post #444 of 1426
Thread Starter 
bassman,

yes, this pushing' too much green/blue.

take an 1 oz of water and add 3 mil of the red to it to dilute it.

add it to the mix in 1/2 oz increments. that should do the trick. then take a couple of pics and shoot them my way.
post #445 of 1426
I will give that a shot.
post #446 of 1426
That may have fixed my problem,
I added a bit more red than you suggested,
looks like gray now,is there a good way to lighten
the overall mix at this point without messing it up,
otherwise I think its fine.
LL
LL
post #447 of 1426
Hey MMan
I had to thin silver fire a lot more than
the mix calls for to get the wagner to atomize it enough,
how much water do you normally use,
I assume it has to be a soupy consistency to break
the pattern up right.
post #448 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by liquisonic View Post

Are you guys trolling for the next big thing, or are you really trying to help a noob out here?
I am going to try and aquire the 4'x8' sheet of plastimirror, and take MM's advice. I have no doubt that my plan will work.
Thanks' Steve

I'm not quite sure who you were referring to, but as for me, I'm just trying to help.

If you have your heart set on going with a mirror sprayed with SF, go for it!
post #449 of 1426
Wow lots of good info in this thread

I am planning on making a 4:3 Silver Fire Light Fusion screen for my old X1 projector, one day hope to put in a CRT maybe...

1. What thickness Acrylic Mirror do I need?
2. Which Silver Fire mix is best for this application? regular, lite, superlite or High gain?

Cheers

Chris
post #450 of 1426
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbassman64 View Post

Hey MMan
I had to thin silver fire a lot more than
the mix calls for to get the wagner to atomize it enough,
how much water do you normally use,
I assume it has to be a soupy consistency to break
the pattern up right.

I'm having the same trouble with the consistency of the mixture. Just picked up a new Wagner CS and it's not atomizing well at all. The largest bloops are about 1/16" on the far side of the spray (top or bottom). I already added about 10oz of distilled water to thin the mix. What am I doing wrong?
I'm using Silver fire mixture from March 23rd 2009 and 1.25oz of the color mixture. Oh, by the way, I'm assuming you guys are talking about weight oz not FL.Oz.? So I'm using a kitchen scales for the base and viscosity components and a syringe for the ml measurements. Is that right or a misconception?
Thanks in advance for your help.
-Michael
LL
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