The PS3 and the Sony SXRD 50" & 60" XBR1

EDIT: To avoid confusion for those reading this thread for the first time (I still get PMs occasionally), Sony upgraded me to a full 1080P XBR2 after I got the green blob. So while I have no more info to share on the XBR1, other members here may be able to help you.

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I've had my Sony 60" SXRD XBR1 set for about 6 months now, and I've posted my PS2 lag problems and acceptable resolutions in these posts from other threads:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...20#post7794320
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7834372
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7841059
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...84#post7838384

I now have the PS3 and want to discuss how the new console works with the SXRD XBR1 when it comes to lag, visual output quality, and any other related concerns. Perhaps other PS3 owners (or XBox 360 owners) with the same TV can give some additional input.

Here's what I've done so far on my PS3. Nothing I'll post is scientific or done with measuring tools. I'm just an average joeblow with good instincts for how video games, particularly at 60fps, should feel. Here's what I've noticed so far, everything through HDMI:

PS3 blu-ray movies: I have Mission Impossible 3 and Monster House... they each play, look and sound incredible on the XBR1 set to 1080i. My family members were equally in awe... for the average movie watcher, there are no issues there at all, period.


PS2/PS1 games: As many of you know, the PS3 will put all of these older games at 480P instead of their natural 480i (games that can do more like GT4 can be set higher). For me so far, so good when it comes to how the games 'feel'. If there is lag, it is not significant so far based on my tests, but I'll keep at it. Here are some titles I tried and the settings:

Contra: Shattered Soldier - This game is a 60 fps side scrolling shoot'em up and ran great. It is 100% twitch reflex based, so it'd be easy to notice a delay in ducking/jumping, etc. I highly recommend the game BTW for old-school Contra fiends.

Beatmania - This game is a 60 fps rhythm music game (keyboard and turntable). I can't figure out how to get the special controller to work on the PS3 right now (I have an old USB converter that doesn't do it). Stuck with only the control pad, I had to re-teach myself the buttons before I could complete a song.

Once I got the hang of where the new button presses were, I was knocking out the 'Perfects' just fine on songs of medium difficulty. I'm no expert BM player, but as far as I can tell it is playing fine on the XBR1 through the PS3.

Tekken Tag Tournament - An oldie but a goodie, this a 60 fps 1v1 tag fighting game. I've been playing hardcore competitive Tekken for 10 years, so this series is perfect for me to test with. It is very particular about lag since some inputs require you to do motions on the controller very precisely with very little frames available for error if it's slow. Jin's Electric Wind Godfist is an example, which requires one to input forward, neutral, down, and down-forward in one fluid motion within 1/10th of a second. No problems there.

I also played vs. the CPU in Practice mode, which is notorious for being throw happy. Choosing Julia Chang as my opponent, I was able to time my reflexes for breaking her Mad Axes throw whenever I saw it coming. Once Mad Axes connects with your character, you have 1/12th of a second (it has only five escape frames) to recognize it and press both punch buttons to get out of it or you will be tossed. If there was any significant lag, I would definitely feel it trying to break that throw but I was routinely successful.

Tekken 5 - This upgraded Tekken game allows you to set the visual out put to 16x9 in Progressive mode for a natural 480P. I turned these settings on and practiced doing some more EWGFs with Mishimas... no problem. I also tried do some crouch cancel combos with Lei, which also require frame-specific inputs to be successful. For any Tekken players out there, the combo starts in Back Turned and then do this: BK d+1, d+2, f~f+1, Razor Rushx4~Tiger Stance, TGS 4. I was able to do this flawlessly even though there's no room for error when you transition from d+2 to f~f+1.

So as far as I can tell, with PS2 games there is no significant lag on this TV when running through the PS3.


PS3 games: I've played my PS3 almost non-stop since launch day. Here's how each game "felt" to me on the SXRD XBR1:

F1 Championship demo, Resistance demo, Motorstorm demo: All of these games run natively at 720P max. IMPORTANT!!!! They will output at 480P on your TV if you don't manually set it to 720P. I was ignorantly at 1080i when I first played all of these and was a bit disappointed by the visuals. They improved after the 720P switch (especially Resistance), and now they look their best and all run at their programmed frame rate with no issues at all.

Blast Factor demo, Cash Guns Chaos demo, NBA 07 demo, Ridge Racer 7 full version, NBA 2K7 full version:
I have all of these games set to 1080i from the PS3 system menu. I verified the actual resolution once the game is running by clicking the 'Display' button on the SXRD's remote control.

Because of the nature of these types of games, I'm not able to run frame-specific tests like I was able to above. However, I still felt zero significant lag while playing. This is awesome because 1080i games, like 1080i movie playback, looks exactly the same as it would on a full 1080P XBR2. The thing I worried about was if there would be input lag, and so far I feel none. I'll test more when games requiring tighter inputs are released.

RR7 is a blast. I've played online and off, and the game is always running at amazing speeds. NBA '07 looks better than 2K7 at 1080i, and often runs smoother too (even at 720P). 2K7 is the better game so far, but the visuals of '07 are noteworthy.

I went to Cash Guns Chaos as the best test I could think of. It is an upgrade from the arcade classic game Smash TV where you run and shoot in all directions using both analogs. Once I cleared the first stage, I stayed in the empty room and used the digital buttons to test for lag. Pressing square or circle IMMEDIATELY shoots right or left, triangle or 'X' shoots up or down. No matter how lightly I pressed the buttons, it shot a bullet right away. The same is true for using the pad to move the character - it would take the smallest of tiny steps instantly upon pressing a directional button.

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As a gamer and movie watcher, all in all, I am extremely pleased with my PS3 and 60" SXRD XBR1 so far. I thought I'd regret not waiting for full 1080P because of potential lag issues, but so far there have not been even the smallest of problems. As more games come out, I'll continue to test for any lag that may affect PS3 game play on this television model. I'd appreciate anyone else's hands-on reports as well.

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**** 12/29/06 UPDATE ****

I've downloaded and tested the HK version of Tekken 5: DR, which was planned all along to be my ultimate test. I played it extensively on 480P, 720P and 1080i settings of the XBR1. I played it with thwe wireless Sixaxis controller, and I played it with a PS2 controller using a Radio Shack USB converter.

The conclusions are clear: there is definitely noticeable lag at 1080i. In general I can "feel" it while playing Tekken, but specifically there are certain combos I tried that barely worked 1 out of 20 tries in 1080i, but worked every time in 480P and 720P.

What that means is that the conversion from 1080i to 1080P for games that support 1080P takes enough time where your inputs fall behind the action on screen. This is different than display lag, or general frame rate sluggishness which does NOT occur as you can read in the rest of this thread. The frame rate for 1080i and 1080P games is the same, but input lag is indeed evident for a game that requires frame-accurate inputs at 1080P.

So in conclusion, you can play these fighters or rhythm games just fine at 720P or less on the SXRD XBR1. I can still attest to the fact that you won't notice it much playing "regular" games like GT:HD, where I have times that are 7 seconds off the world record holders playing in 1080P. If you want a pure 1080P gaming experience for all games however, this is not the TV to get.

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**** 1/6/06 UPDATE ****

Forget what I said in the last update... this TV works fine AFTER you adjust the settings. The trick is to either go with Direct Mode ON in HDMI mode, or going with Game Mode ON (with a lot of adjusting of your TV's display settings) with Component cables. With either of these two options used, you can get little to no perceptible input lag while still maintaining 60 fps in 1080P games. Read page 4 of the thread for more details; testing continues.

Thanks to Marc Alexander for the excellent suggestions.

It makes older games 480P through HDMI only since it can't do 480i. You can set it at 480i via Component cables however. Next I'll test the input lag and visual quality using my PS2's component cables for everything I posted above.

OK, I just tested the Component connection a bit (Beatmania, Tekken 5, Cash Guns Chaos, NBA 07 demo). All of them look and play exactly the same as HDMI at 480P, 720P and 1080i. I was able to go 480i for the PS2 games of course, so there's that option if you want it. I'll try movies next.

BTW you can have your Component and HDMI cables connected to the PS3 and just select either one from the PS3's options (make sure you switch the Audio output as well). This way, no need to mess with cables switching.

Briefly describe what I should look for and I'll honestly report if it happens. I'm playing 60 fps games at 1080i and have had no noticeable problems so far. Maybe the set's up-conversion to 1080P for final display is doing something right so far, I dunno. How would 3:2 pulldown affect the look or gameplay of a title I have running?

^^^ No. For this set, the PS3 will keep it at 720P for all games. You have to manually select 1080i if you want that.

Marc Alexander: Thanks for the info, I know more of what to look for. After a few more hours of testing and paying careful attention to the games, I can say that 1080i and 1080P are not exactly the same. However, it's not cut and dried either. However it is done, 1080i is outputting up to 60 fps on 1080P games that can achieve that rate. I am sure of it. What happens is that at times there is some added sluggishness, particularly when the screen is doing extra graphic activity. Here are things I noticed:

Cash Guns Chaos demo: 1080i definitely runs at the same frame rate as 720P. I switch back and forth and it is the same. However when you win a round, your character dances while the camera rotates around him rapidly (i.e. like holding left on a FPS game while standing in place). In 720P the background spins rapidly with no hiccups, in 1080i there is a noticeable slow down about 20% of the rotation before it picks back up. No slow down during actual game play occurs.

NBA 2K7: Again, the game feels to be the same frame rate in 1080i and 720P, but I can tell you that overall this game dips and chugs at certain points in both resolutions. When the camera pulls back after a big play to reveal the full court and all the players, coaches, bench players, etc, it slows down almost every time for both, and it does it worse in 1080i. Game play stays constant and the same for both.

NBA '07 demo: This engine is definitely better optimized than NBA 2K7. It stays at 60fps rock solid in both resolutions during the game 100% of the time. Even the game play overall is a lot smoother and fast than 2K7. I didn't notice any frame rate issues at all in 1080i or 720P except during the full court intro pan shot of the court... there is a slight slowdown on 1080i. Anyone else who does tests on this TV, download this game and see if you are seeing what I'm seeing. It is not a 30 fps game in 1080i.

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As I was going through these tests, it also occurred to me that 1080 is not a major visual upgrade for at least the titles I've tested. NBA 07 is maybe the most vibrant 1080P game out, and it looks pretty much the same in 720P. Perhaps textures designed for 1080 need to be prevalent in a game to make that resolution stand out more. From 480-->720 is very noticeable, but so far that isn't so true with current 1080 games I've tried when downgrading them and comparing them at 720.

I guess that makes sense in a way because you look at some awesome CG movie and despite the low resolution compared to 1080, we haven't seen games yet approach that level of graphic fidelity. I now better understand why some developers say resolution is maybe 4th on the list of what it takes to make a game look really good. Not that I don't think that we won't see clearer examples of the separation between the two resolutions down the road, but for now, I feel a lot more comfortable staying at 720P.

Now with that said, playing 1080i for these games is NOT a problem so far, and I'm a stickler for input issues. I still get 60fps in all the games except as noted above. And I never really noticed the sluggishness until I looked for it. No doubt I can find my toleration limits once Tekken 6 comes out, but even that game may hold at 60fps during game play at 1080i (if it's a 1080P game). Most rhythm games will likely be just fine at 720P, so no issues there. Overall so far, the PS3 is fun and looks great either way based on these early titles.

I wonder if someone with a 2006 XBR2 set (full 1080P input and output) can check the demo of Cash Guns Chaos for the minor slowdown I mentioned above between levels (during the 360 degree screen spin). The reason I ask is that perhaps that minor sluggishness is present at 1080i or 1080P and is unrelated to 3:2 pulldown.

I'm just trying to eliminate any other reasons for it; I understand that this may not be the case. If it is not present in the full 1080P set, then we'll have an example of the difference between the two resolutions in an actual game.

I've played Ridge Racer 7 at 1080i for quite a few hours and haven't experienced any slowdown at all - not in the slightest - and its a 60 fps game. Shouldn't I get occasional frame drops if there is an issue here?

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. There is no constant sluggishness at all, but it does slow down very briefly a bit in certain predictable instances. I'm only trying to eliminate another possibility... that 1080P/i itself causes slow down at times on some software. If someone with a XBR2 can check it with Cash Guns Chaos, it would explain a lot either way.

Blackraven: I only have the american version. On my PS2 on this TV, I used to have to go to Game Mode in order to play it the timing was so off at first, but it got better once I turned off the TV's enhancements. On the PS3, it is at 480P and so far I can't detect any significant lag. Perhaps you can provide more hands-on info when/if you get a PS3 to test.

Thanks! It did seem to me that the any extra sluggishness I saw at 1080i could be due to the software itself and would be present on a full 1080P input setting as well. You seem to confirm this. If you find ANY replicable output differences between the two settings, let us know!

As a minor update to my posts above, RR7 at 1080i does exhibit slight slowdown when there are a ton of cars tightly packed together on a sharp turn, but again that may be present in 1080P as well. It's a VERY fun game by the way and is by far my most played title (78% finished).

wreckshop... so far what I and apparently Andreyy are commenting on is the actual bottom line when it comes to how 1080P games interact with this TV set. Technical analysis may not always be on point since neither one of us are professionals in that area, but more importantly we are trying to evaluate how games actually look and feel in the end.

Good news people! I think I'll soon be able to be as definitive as possible on the issue of possible lag when playing 1080P/60 fps games on the XBR1. Reports from Japan indicate that Tekken 5: DR is going to be released as a cheap download very soon, and the graphics will be enhanced to 1080P.

Not only is this my favorite game series of all time, but the precise input requirements described in my first post will be fully tested at the 1080P setting. I will go so far as to have two of the best Mishima players in the country come by to test if there is even one frame of noticable lag... they both have mastered Heihachi's advanced EWGF (requires more precise timing than the other EWGFs), and will easily be able to sense if anything is out of sync.