HD1000U Tweakers and Calibration Thread - Page 12

you cant use the tint/color controls theyre not available when using hdmi or heck maybe most of the other high end inputs. which is why its so hard, well impossible if you ask me , for now anyway. I again still pray for a firmware update to correct the issue or again we mission impossble 3 style into mits headquarters and steal the codes.

Well Kevin as an ISF Calibrator should be able to call Mits and get the codes to the Service Menu........

Of course then we will all have to take a trip to Portland to get our Mits's Calibrated!!!

:-)

OK Kraz I do not have avia but will try and pick it up this weekend. Thanks.

Hi Kras - glad to see you in this thread and thanks for your inputs.

I couldn't resist all the buzz around this PJ so ordered one and it should arrive today. I will be doing a ColorVision 6.0 Pro calibration on it using a new Pantone DisplayOne LT sensor (should also arrive - still have my trusty original colorfacts colorimeter) and will let everyone know how this HD1000u specs out assuming I decide to keep it (I just want something to replace my Sony HS20 as an interim PJ until I upgrade to 1080p next year).

What's a bit new to me first is this is my first DLP front PJ I've calibrated. There are some DLP settings I'm not totally familiar with as well as the usual manufacturer/Mitsubishi specific parameters that I will need to set correctly. Could wind up with a lot of permutations of testing to get it optimized. So I'm looking for some experienced feedback on a few items to help speed thru the calibration, like:
- Brilliant Color - parsing many DLP reviews I see a great variance on what this does and what settings are used. I suspect that this can/will affect gray scale and colors performance so if there is a narrow Mitsu optimum value(s) let me know
- I see alot of people changing the gamma values. I like that Mitsu let's you change three ranges versus a more simpler global change, but I will shoot for a smooth gamma curve of 2.2 and maybe tweak a touch from there depending of the visual results.
- Similar to above, everybody is messing with the RGB cuts and gains but doing it by eyeball. That's OK if you have no access to calibration equipment and if you carefully tweak a little here or there, but I cringe at some of the adjustments many have made by "eye". I hope that these 1000u's have a general family performance range so that what I and others come up with for calibrated settings can perhaps be somewhat useful to those without the calibration tools. I'm suspecting that there are a number of interacting setting options that are causing the big spread in numbers here - again if any people such as Kras has worked with this unit (forgive me if there are already existing detailed threads for this that I've missed) and can share their calibration approach for this unit that will help.
- At first it sounded like the Color setting was an additional global color setting, but now it looks like it is the standard saturation control, right?

OK, enough for now. Wish me and my family good luck that we won't be impacted by any DLP rainbows or eye strain or headaches! Then comes the new mount installation this weekend and I'll also report on any keystone artifacts. And I want to watch some movies, oh and yes I guess I'll need to fit in a few hours for calibration work.......

Cheers,
daggerNC

Kras Did you break down and grab HD1000 ??

If so do you think it will fill a 120inch screen with no trouble.


cheers

OK then look on your source player for color/tint. Or use component in which you can correct it. Just because HDMI is digital does not mean it is perfect. The HC3000 has the same issue - lack of color/tint adjustments is common ommission on digital inputs - yet often when they are included the defaults are off thanks to marketing! Which really is the only reason they are needed - there is no technical reason for a digital/component signal to need tint adjustment - that is a composite/Svideo legacy control.

What you are describing is a tint issue not a greyscale issue. Go get a calibration DVD - try component and report back.

No I just like to get out of the Infocus threads now and then and help other people try to calibrate those displays that actually need it My impression is it is as bright as a SP4805 calibrated so with some gain 100" should be fine - but this is not based on my own calibration experience. 120" is pushing it too far unless you have serious gain. Lamps decay fast - may look oK new - but does not take long for you to complain about dim bulbs. The only dim bulb is the one that designed the setup resulting in a dim screen because they did not account for a dim bulb ....

I am basing my advice based on similar calibration firmware in the HC3000.

BrilliantColor is always off for calibration - it is designed to make some colors or some greys brighter which destroys color decoding and blows out gamma. It is not a calibration control - it is a marketing control

Color is typical video color saturation adjusted with the colorbars and blue filters.

I doubt you need custom gamma as Cinema should be standard 2.2 if you have calibrated brightness/contrast properly.

I cannot speak to your new sensor compatibility with CF6.0 - I thought you needed CF7.0 for new sensors and I don't know if it is on the list.

Copying numbers does not work. Discussing calibration approaches does. I have posted about this many times before.

Most have posted they have greenish greyscale, likely if new firmware targets 6500K which is not D65 - a common mistake with PJ reviewers and designers!. This is best fixed by cutting green contrast - not increasing red/blue contrast because of color clipping. But someone else may be a bit too yellow or a bit too cyan - which is more of a balance issue. But don't confuse grayscale issues with tint/color issues with gamut issues with color decoding issue- you most certainly need calibration gear to decipher what the problems really are - and enough experience to know the differences and what controls control this or that or not.

An analogy is you are a teeter totter builder - and the playground supervisor writes back and says the installer miscentered the teeter so it will not totter. Can you tell me how many gradeschool kids I must put on each side to get it balanced?

Kraz, according to the HD1000 manual, "tint is available only when the NTSC signal is input". I have my 480p Dvd player hooked up to HD1000 via component, using progressive scan, and tint is not available. Are they saying it needs to be an interlaced signal for tint to be available?

Or use your favorite shipping service Personally I think shipping plus my services still gets you the best bang for your buck in cheap PJs - and I would be the first one to say if they can or cannot be calibrated and what if any the limitations are. But I also realize if people wanted more performance they would have bought a spendier PJ in the first place! And if people want to start a calibration hobby AVS has a forum for that - and I am happy to tell someone when they are going about it the wrong way. However, I think most people just need to learn how to use AVIA/DVE to be satisified.

You are deluded if you think corporate conglomerates are ISF friendly and will give out service menu codes to those who are not authorized corporate service partners. If the codes are not already found in tweak threads on AVS it is a good sign they are not giving them out at HQ to anyone - ISF especially.

But you have grayscale, gamma, and basic video adjustments for the most part - which is all anyone needs. Even the most spendy PJs do not have color decoder and color gamut adjustments. Nobodys miscalibrated HD1000 is due to a lack of service menu access!

Infocus SP4805 was the same way - but usually progressive DVD players have this. Sometimes you might have to look for it. Oppo, Sony all have it - and depending on firmware are likely default to be incorrect. HTPC players have it. Supposedly Toshiba HDVD player current does not. The only reason to upconvert DVD is if you think the player is better at it than the PJ. But if the PJ or player is missing controls on digital upconvert - 480i component may indeed be your best picture overall.

Kras - thanks for the tip on Brilliant Color --> may also be why a number of users are getting lack of shadow detail and other gamma anomolies. If I have enough time I may measure the effects of the different settings and post them.

I agree with the numbers can't be used on other PJ's - each one is slightly different and will have different results. Again, I support the process of either buying good calibration equipment plus education and then doing your own, or have a ISF certified person perform it for you (including the great offer you have of the ship-n-calibrate service).

I'm not sure about the CV 6.0 support - I'm getting a new dongle shipped to me and I should have it tomorrow - it's suppose to be a master key for all the supported devices. I thought Eyeone was on the list?! Guess I'll find out. Will use HCFR as a backup (though I installed it today and it doesn't recognize my eyeone - startup error???).

Thanks again.

Right its not push its something else. I concur exactly with the review here on what I see
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=248116

Where he says
"Steve was pretty unimpressed with the out of the box image that the HD1000 was producing. A quick check of the various user modes showed that greyscale was way off on all modes, sharpness was way too high and that colorspace was somewhat accurate, with the green severely shifted towards yellow. When diving into the calibration, Steve was also disappointed with the lack of colorspace control within the HD1000. While he was able to make greyscale adjustments that brought the projector within the acceptable range, colorspace was locked into place. The strange yellowish-green color phenomenon was apparently a permanent feature with the HD1000. While this might not seem like a big deal to many of you, the incorrect green level actually causes the projector to produce green tones that look a bit like pea soup. So, when watching a football game, one will never get that nicely saturated green of the field out of the projector. It will always seem a bit pale and will never have a nice green pop. On a brighter note, gamma was pretty accurate out of the box and the projector itself does feature user-selectable gamma controls."

..."The Mitsubishi HD1000 produces a very rich image after calibration. The aforementioned yellowish-green problem is noticeable on a variety of different programming types and this is a problem that will haunt this projector until someone figures out the service menu codes that will hopefully unlock greater color controls."

I've tried every setting known to man tried to adjust what we can. And without tint and/or color control I can't get rid of the yellowish shift. Reds are tiny off , and green and yellow are easily off. I noticed it right away during the super bowl the grass was not lush green, it shifted to slight yellowish hue. I didn't see that thread/review until after, its what made me do a search for color issues with this projector. I wanted to see if there was a real issue or if it could be fixed. So as yet I guess the answer is no. Im still hopeful and its not the end of the world..just would be nice.

I can count on one hand current projectors with proper color gamut and color decoding adjustments - don't hold your breath - as none of them exist in this budget forum - not even in their service menus.

You put too much stock in that review which has been explained before - the psychovisual difference is very small - unless you are comparing to something else that is out of spec with greens tending to blue (Optoma H30). A green that deviates towards yellow is the tradeoff made for brighter projectors - the brightness can easily be doubled for a 10-15% perceptual shift in the hue of green on the colorwheel.

But that is not marjens issue - he is clearly describing a tint control issue - something he has not yet adjusted - much as you want to latch onto it and prove the PJ has some defect in design - his problem has nothing to do with the primary green color (especially since he compares to the SP4805 which has the same primary green "issue"). Most problems described in this thread are ones of greyscale being off - or lacking basic video adjustments using test patterns.

Same observations tonight (only about 20 minutes on this new PJ). Using component cable input and switching between 480p/i it wouldn't enable Tint. I wonder if they are specifying it only works on s-video and composite inputs (as both HDMI and component CAN be ATSC/HiDef)? I find this to be a major error in their menu setting options if true.....

That said, my tint was very close to spot on with the Color (saturation) set to +2 - this is using GetGray Pro calibration disc. I wish I had a 1.5 setting on Color to see if that made any better given inability to adjust Tint.

daggerNC, what does the color setting have to do with tint?
Kraz, are you saying to adjust the tint control thru DVD player, if available? I'll have to check my Philips Q50, to see if it has tint control. Then I still have the green push from my HD satellite and HDMI input to play with.

hey i dont have the correct usb cable, but has anyone tried connecting the projector to a comp through usb? hell, you never know it may mount a mini flash drive where you can copy the contents and maybe some people here could analyze it.

quick q: Does Superman Returns the film or HD-DVD have a red tint to it? It is one of the films where i notice the red push, in the hd-dvd advertisement w/ dukes of hazard and in the film.

-Jonathan

I tried Jaceace's settings, and predictably they do not work too well on my projector. Cutting the RGB Offsets to -30 and raised the overall Brightness to +30 and adjusting the Contrast levels accordingly gave me a picture that had a distinct bluish tint to its grays and overall picture.

When I started out with Jaceace's settings, my Yellow was a mess - almost a dark mustard color, my Cyan looked very pale and my Green was pushed into a garish neon color. Going back to the "Warm" color setting, the "Cinema" gamma and adjusting the contrast and brightness with THX patterns, I was surprised to see the marked improvement on the color bars. Yellow was improved the most - getting from a dark mustard color to something much closer to yellow and Cyan was also markedly better - appearing to be better saturated and more of a true Cyan. Green was still pretty neon-ish, but it was also a lot better, to the point of being hardly objectionable. Given those results, I am not sure why the entire picture seemed too Blue on Jaceace's settings (differences in bulbs not withstanding).

I have decided to stay with the "Warm" color setting for now and to just leave to offsets and gains alone.

What I have found very disturbing is the variation I get in grayscale calibrations from one THX-Optimode disc to another depending on the day. For example on Tuesday, using the Cars THX-Optimode, my contrast was set to +23 and my brightness was set at -9 to match the THX patterns. Titanic's THX-Optimode was pretty close to that with Contrast at +22 and Brightness at -10. However, last night I was messing around with Jaceace's setting strategy, afterwards I set everything back to 0 (Gains, Offsets, Contrast, Brightness, Color) and then pulled out Raiders of the Lost Ark THX to reset the display with the THX-Optimode settings again.

This time I got different results than I did on Tuesday. Contrast was still pushed high at +24, but now the Brightness was +2 instead of -9/-10. Not believing this could be true, I switched from Raiders to Empire Strikes Back and found I could actually push the Contrast higher still - all the way to +27 - and keep the Brightness at +2/3 to still get the 8 visible white boxes and the visible THX logo with no drop shadow. I also had pretty decent color fidelity (measured with the AVIA blue filter on the THX-Optimode color screen) with the settings at Color = +3, Sharpness = 0 and Brilliant Color = +1.

Can anyone moere knowledgeable help me understand the variability in the THX-optimodes? I have AVIA and will use it tonight when I get a chance to compare AVIA and all 4 THX-Optimode patterns I have used over the last 2 nights, but any additional feedback/opinions are welcome.


(As a side note - I was amazed at the PQ of "The Prestige" on SD-DVD with the settings I was using last night. The picture looked stunning and the added resolution over my 4805 allowed my front row seating at ~1.5X screen width (11 feet back from a 100" 16:9 image) to have almost zero pixelization (compared to the 4805 at the same distance that is). The picture quality and overall immersive experience was fantastic. I knew that the added resolution would help with HD material, but this added benefit for SD-DVD as well has me extremely pleased with my purchase of the HD1000, even with the minor quibbles about colors and accurate calibrations.


This drift - using only the THX-Optimode settings for quick calibrations - surprised me more than a little.

If anyone wants to try to see how it looks on their pj here are my rgb contrast/brightness settings...

contrast rgb - 0,-5,0
brightness rgb - 0,1,1

I used a spyder2 sensor, HCFR, and getgray. I got good tracking from 25ire to 100ire with deltaE<1.

Man it sounds like there is just no consistency to what the picture is going to look like from projector to projector, which is frustrating.

I sat down last night to watch a movie (A good Year) and the picture was just killing me. I had it set to cinema, warm contrast 3 brightness 5. I thought it was decent till i watched this movie. Most of the scenes are outdoors, lots of green from trees and plants and some fairly contrasty scenes. The picture really seemed to have a sort of yellow film over everything. This was confiemed when looking at whites and even blacks. Blacks really had a brownish tone over it. It this point I paused the movie and with no real idea what I was doing starting taking drastic measure with the color settings

I rememberted jacees drastic -30 settings and first set the contrast colors to 0 then stated bropping the brightness colors all the way down. moving the first 2 R and G I think into the -25 and -17 area really started to removed the haze i had seen. I only moved the last setting down a couple clicks and those changes alone were night and day to the old picture. I want back to some HD channels and just kept switching back and forth between that and warm and it was crazy what a difference it made in the picture.

So at this point I still do not have this thing dialed in, but I have faith that this projector is capable of throwing a great picture. Since i have waited this long for a calibration disk I am going to wait till the 27th when the new HD DVD version of DVE comes out. In the mean time I will keep tweaking. Its just frustrating that we can't really help each other much since what works for one just does not work for others.

moostache2

It has been proven by data comparison that THX Optimodes are not consistent from DVD to DVD. They should be considered correct for that movie only. Yes the THX seal of quality means they have varied setting levels.

Ultimately you want to get AVIA for a consistent test pattern - but keep in mind DVDs are not perfectly mastered - even THX ones.

Always calibrate in the darkest room possible - if you do it during the day your light adaptation and ambient light in the room will give you different results. Your eyes and your room is in fact different. Calibrate for your reference viewing in the dark.

marjen

This is why you need test patterns - you don't know what the scene should look like so you adjust it. If you did that in the Matrix movies you would be changing every scene because the DOP intentionally changed the color cast when in the matrix to make you uneasy. With standard color bars - if you get the cyan, magenta, and yellow correct - then you know any movies colors are being seen as intended (which in the case of the Matrix - means they are NOT correct - intentionally!)

Adding a yellowish cast is something DOPs do intentionally - they want that historical sepia tone on purpose. Underworld Revolution used that trick in flashblacks - it is a signal you are in a historical flashblack and not in the current underworld (which is dark blues and greys)

Even if you get the HD-DVD DVE - you want to make sure it includes the SD-DVD as well. There are difference in SMPTE standards for HD vs. SD decoding that will show up in brightness variations of colors - most commonly is green brightness being off when you get it twisted around. And if your projector is calibrated to a greener 6500K than proper D65 - green is already too brite!

Thanks Kraz. I do understand different movies use different color palletes. But it just looked terrible. After making my manual adjustments I did test against other material flipping through some HD tv channels. I was able to keep flipping back and forth between user1 setting and warm and was able to confirm the new setting looked better across multiple sources.

I do realize I need test patterns and hope to have them soon.

Thanks kras...

I will just save some time and go with the AVIA calibration instead of bothering with too much THX stuff then.

That's what calibration is all about....

No -calibration is about 100hrs going by and saying what worked 100hrs ago seems to have drifted 1% and it must be tweaked now - regardless if her show is on. That is what PVRs are for - watching after it has been tweaked again But then there is the issue of the PVR calibration seeming to differ from OTA....so better check it to make sure!

Do people mostly use Standard or low lamp mode on their HD1000?

Low

Does anyone notice any difference in picture quality/brightness between component an HDMI...just wondering about the 8 bit vs. 10 bit thing.

I tried my HD satellite with component and HDMI, and I see no difference.

Great thread. I'll be testing some of these tweaks on my new hd1000u tonight. Thanks guys.