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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 408

post #12211 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinoiski View Post

Hi,
My current system:
B&W 804 Matrix for front channels
B&W HTM for center channel
B&W 805 Matrix for surround
Dual B&W PV1D subs
Receiver: Denon AVR-4311ci
Source: DirecTV, Oppo BDP-105, Dune Smart H1
I am planning to upgrade and have approximately 8K. Which of the 2 upgrades do you think would be better for 50/50 music/movies?
1) Parasound A51 amplifier + Marantz 8801 pre/pro
or
2) B&W 804 Diamonds
Any other recommendations are welcome.
Thanks,

Definitely option 2 over option 1. it should be a great upgrade smile.gif
post #12212 of 17823
Just had my 804Ds set up...
I wonder how long do Diamond owners run in their speakers, and how much toe in do you do?
Also, I currently have them about 50 cm from the rear wall, but there is not as much bass as my old 805s. How long before the real sound kicks in?

Cheers.
post #12213 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

if i were you i wouldn't switch from 804S to N802. because
1) you have a sub so the bass of the N802 is less important to you. you will still have to use the sub but probably crossed over a bit lower.
2) the S tweeter is newer and is possibly marginally better.
3) the midrange of the n802 will be better due to the marlan head
4) the n802 possibly has better crossovers so there could be slight gains there
so you you get better midrange and the rest of the gains are debateable.
if you didn't have either and were chooseing between the two i would say get the N802 but if you have 804S then you will go through a lot of hassle for questionable gain.
i would say save up for used 802D. there are out there. good news is your 804S will hold value well and won't go down in much further in value between now and a 1-2 years from now...may be a couple of hundred...

thank you for the input.

people are selling the 802d still pretty high. most for about twice the price i can get the the 802n for.

are they worth twice the price?
if i waited and spent the money on the 802d then the tweeter on my htm3s would definitely not match. i have a chance with the tweeters matching with the 802n. so the 802d would cost more upfront and then i would have to find a center and buy it as well.

are the 802d worth twice the price of the 802n?
are the 802d worth two thousand more?( if i could find them for that price)

thanks,
Bill
post #12214 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

First of all, we're talking Surround speakers, so any of these Diamonds will be awesome.
...

As a general statement, not relating to wse's specific situation I think people under estimate the importance of the surround speakers in music based on their experiences with the surround speakers in a home theater i.e. movie setup. Most movies make little use of the surrounds really but with music the speakers can see a signal for the entire album and often have some very dynamic passages and I find it much easier with music to pick up differences in speaker performance then a sparsely used speaker with a movie soundtrack producing artifical sounds. For movies I think the shift is going to be to widths and heigths, putting more importance on them rather than the surrounds, that is of course providing 9.x and 11.x actually takes hold in the consumer market.
post #12215 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post

thank you for the input.
people are selling the 802d still pretty high. most for about twice the price i can get the the 802n for.
are they worth twice the price?
if i waited and spent the money on the 802d then the tweeter on my htm3s would definitely not match. i have a chance with the tweeters matching with the 802n. so the 802d would cost more upfront and then i would have to find a center and buy it as well.
are the 802d worth twice the price of the 802n?
are the 802d worth two thousand more?( if i could find them for that price)
thanks,
Bill

Of course, "Worth" is different for everyone. Is a 5% or 10% improvement worth the price?

Most people say they can hear a difference between 802D2 vs 802D1 vs 802N, but they are comparing speakers in different rooms, setups, times, and with full bias (sight). Comparing by memory and with bias is very tricky.

If these speakers were all in the same room, in the same setup, same time frame (not relying on memory), playing the same music, double-blinded (removing bias like cost difference and knowledge of driver type), I'm not so sure people could tell a significant difference. biggrin.gif

We're comparing speakers that cost over $10,000, not $10K vs $1K. biggrin.gif
post #12216 of 17823
Any recommendation on a center speaker to match some inherited 804D front speakers? I currently have 685's for rears.
post #12217 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenAPD View Post

Any recommendation on a center speaker to match some inherited 804D front speakers? I currently have 685's for rears.

I would say go for the HTM2D2, if the price new or used is to steep then the HTM4D would be the next best option.
post #12218 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

@accudeftech I listened to some cm9's the other day.i loved how smooth they were but felt like it was a trick to get you drawn in so you wouldn't notice that they weren't capable of producing the accurate details needed to reproduce instruments that need high levels of detail. Like a weaker or thinner, less detailed sound with a beautiful thick black velvet blanket thrown over the audio.I feel like i'm making myself sound like an idiot but it's the best i can describe them with limited time i have spend with a limited amount of speakers. I do like how i could never get fatigued from listening to them but there is something that didn't seem right with them in the mids and almost like the bass had that thick veil on them too to match the mids. Didn't think they had enough midbass punch to them either. Are there any other speakers, even b&w that have maybe a cleaner signature to them with a little bit of sweetness to them. sparkle on top and enough mid and sub bass to satisfy me. I think the cm9's were just to thick for me.
Maybe dynaudio or focal?
I think i thought of a better way to describe this smoothness. with some speakers i have heard, the mids and highs come right at you and almost come to a sharp point in front of your face but with the cm9's they would come out and then they would come to a point more like a ball point pen instead of a needle.
It's late i feel like an idiot.
'Thanks for the help if you would
btw should this be more like a private message?

As I said elsewhere, the CM9 were definitely on my list until I was able to hear them literally next to a pair of 805 Diamonds run off the same exact equipment – the store just switched the cables back and forth between the two. I am not much of a writer so I can’t describe the differences but the diamonds were definitely clearer and “better”. If you can swing the extra $2k I would definitely be auditioning the 805D2.

As far as Focal, I heard many of them many times as they were very seriously on my list. My impression was that I honestly liked the tweeter sound of the Focals better (vs. B&W diamond). However, and it’s a big however, I was not impressed with the total speaker integration. If I abstracted myself and only concentrated on highs the Focals were great. If I listened to the “entire” speaker I wasn’t nearly as “impressed”. Not to say that they are not good speakers, just that for me they were not a good match. One last thing, I thought personally that the Chorus 800V sounded better than the 800W. I don’t remember why but I do remember scratching my head about it because the V is much cheaper.

Take it from someone that just went through this process and who likes to read: there is no amount of reading that will be as relevant as listening for yourself. If you can’t listen to the speakers in the same room at the same time, I would at least try to run around your dealers on the same day, back to back. At least this way your memories will be as fresh as they possibly can…
post #12219 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

I would say go for the HTM2D2, if the price new or used is to steep then the HTM4D would be the next best option.

Would the lower end HTM61 or 62 sound strange with the 804D's? I pretty much only listen to music in 2.1 so the center would be used primary for movies.
post #12220 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenAPD View Post

Would the lower end HTM61 or 62 sound strange with the 804D's? I pretty much only listen to music in 2.1 so the center would be used primary for movies.
IMO the only center would be one designed for the 800 series. The HTM61/62 sound entirely different than 800 series. I honestly would not use the HTM61 with any set up.
post #12221 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Just had my 804Ds set up...
I wonder how long do Diamond owners run in their speakers, and how much toe in do you do?
Also, I currently have them about 50 cm from the rear wall, but there is not as much bass as my old 805s. How long before the real sound kicks in?.


the manual of B&W says that with 15h are enough to break in the speakers.
Edited by leo2498 - 12/6/12 at 9:35am
post #12222 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post

thank you for the input.
people are selling the 802d still pretty high. most for about twice the price i can get the the 802n for.
are they worth twice the price?
if i waited and spent the money on the 802d then the tweeter on my htm3s would definitely not match. i have a chance with the tweeters matching with the 802n. so the 802d would cost more upfront and then i would have to find a center and buy it as well.
are the 802d worth twice the price of the 802n?
are the 802d worth two thousand more?( if i could find them for that price)
thanks,
Bill

I think that they worth the money, for anyone who are looking for better audio performance will found in the 802D a huge improvement, remember the 802D change few part not only the tweeter adicional they modified xover, bass driver(rohacell) and better midrange driver so all it will depend of what do you want and what worth for you.
post #12223 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenAPD View Post

Any recommendation on a center speaker to match some inherited 804D front speakers? I currently have 685's for rears.

HTM4D works for me but if you room is a mid to large size maybe look at for the HTM2Di.
post #12224 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenAPD View Post

Would the lower end HTM61 or 62 sound strange with the 804D's? I pretty much only listen to music in 2.1 so the center would be used primary for movies.

It will certainly do the job no question there. I guess it just comes down to how critical your hearning is as you may not like the blending of the soundstage but then again you may not notice a thing. Can you get loan of a unit from your dealer to give a try at home, that would be the best thing to do.
post #12225 of 17823
Getting a huge bug to get a pair of CM1s to start off my system. System would be an all-in-one, music and movies. Starting off with a 2.1 then possibly expanding in the future. Sub will be something in the REL line. I need the ability to have AM/FM radio, and possibly hook up all my components (DVD, Wii, AppleTV) so they can be played from the speakers.

Looking at integrated amps, HT amps, etc. With an integrated, I would need a tuner and other components. With a HT amp/receiver, they would be an all-in-one.

Amp/Receiver options:

NAD T748 (average $700)
Yamaha HTR-4065 ($270 Costco)
Marantz (need to stay in the $500-700 range preferably)
NAD integrated (but would need separate components to complete. Unsure how I would integrate DVD/Wii, AppleTV)

I am by no means an audiophile, but I could hear and distinguish the difference between the CM1 and the 600-series. Amps can be upgraded in the future, but did want to spend good hard earned $$ on quality speakers (hence the CM1s). Would love to spend no more than $2,500 to start. CM1=$1,000 / REL = $600-800 / Speaker Stands = $200 / Amp = $500-$700..

Question:

1. If I go the cheap and easy (good enough for now) Yamaha from Costco is that enough power for the CM1s even in 2.1 mode?
2. NAD HT or integrated
3. Marantz, Denon, Onyko - Which one bang for the buck???

THANKS!!!..
post #12226 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

a month is hardly enough...
My Mcintosh mc452+802D2 sounded worse than my N804+50wpc linn majik dsm integrated for close 2 two months.
There was greater detail but the smoothness just wasn't there. the bass was not tight (although there was a lot of it).
Now at month three it sounds simply amazing...
granted most of it was breakin for the speakers, but a lot of people buy new amps and speakers around the same time. i did run the 802D2 with 50wpc linn amps for a month while the mcintosh was on order and initially the mcintosh sounded worse (at low volumes) than the tiny class D linn integrated so part of it is the mcintosh amp breakin as well.

Amp (SS) "break-in" does not exist IMO. biggrin.gif

Most audiophile authorities believe that the amps and speakers don't break-in significantly at all. Our minds break-in and we get used to the sound - psycho-acoustic. Kal Rubinson & others will say the same.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 12/6/12 at 3:16pm
post #12227 of 17823
Tubes break in and sound will change over their life.
post #12228 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

@accudeftech I listened to some cm9's the other day.i loved how smooth they were but felt like it was a trick to get you drawn in so you wouldn't notice that they weren't capable of producing the accurate details needed to reproduce instruments that need high levels of detail. Like a weaker or thinner, less detailed sound with a beautiful thick black velvet blanket thrown over the audio.I feel like i'm making myself sound like an idiot but it's the best i can describe them with limited time i have spend with a limited amount of speakers. I do like how i could never get fatigued from listening to them but there is something that didn't seem right with them in the mids and almost like the bass had that thick veil on them too to match the mids. Didn't think they had enough midbass punch to them either. Are there any other speakers, even b&w that have maybe a cleaner signature to them with a little bit of sweetness to them. sparkle on top and enough mid and sub bass to satisfy me. I think the cm9's were just to thick for me.
Maybe dynaudio or focal?
I think i thought of a better way to describe this smoothness. with some speakers i have heard, the mids and highs come right at you and almost come to a sharp point in front of your face but with the cm9's they would come out and then they would come to a point more like a ball point pen instead of a needle.
It's late i feel like an idiot.
'Thanks for the help if you would
btw should this be more like a private message?

See if the dealer lets you borrow a demo pair. biggrin.gif

I think many speakers sound terrible at stores.

But you could try higher models of B&W. Also Focal Chorus and Dynaudio Excite. Also Revel F12/F32 or KEF Q900 or the R- series.
post #12229 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

@accudeftech I listened to some cm9's the other day.i loved how smooth they were but felt like it was a trick to get you drawn in so you wouldn't notice that they weren't capable of producing the accurate details needed to reproduce instruments that need high levels of detail. Like a weaker or thinner, less detailed sound with a beautiful thick black velvet blanket thrown over the audio.I feel like i'm making myself sound like an idiot but it's the best i can describe them with limited time i have spend with a limited amount of speakers. I do like how i could never get fatigued from listening to them but there is something that didn't seem right with them in the mids and almost like the bass had that thick veil on them too to match the mids. Didn't think they had enough midbass punch to them either. Are there any other speakers, even b&w that have maybe a cleaner signature to them with a little bit of sweetness to them. sparkle on top and enough mid and sub bass to satisfy me. I think the cm9's were just to thick for me.
Maybe dynaudio or focal?
I think i thought of a better way to describe this smoothness. with some speakers i have heard, the mids and highs come right at you and almost come to a sharp point in front of your face but with the cm9's they would come out and then they would come to a point more like a ball point pen instead of a needle.
It's late i feel like an idiot.
'Thanks for the help if you would
btw should this be more like a private message?

While the CM9's are not in the same league as the diamonds, the midrange isn't a weak point I have found at the store or in the home. There are 2 things that come to mind as to possible culprits. The first is room interaction and a lack of room correction. The second would be the plugs that can be inserted in the back of the speaker. My own findings in my listening room is that with the plugs in the soundstage narrows some, the midrange becomes more prominent, and the bass is quite tight. Removing the plugs opens the soundstage some, allows for more bass extension (albeit more boomy), and the midrange falls off noticeably. In my own setup I settled on the plugs with the inner foam removed (so it looks like a donut). I believe the plugs are meant to correct placement, so I can only attest to what they do in my listening area.

No amount of room correction, plug experimentation or placement changes will put the CM9's in the same leagues with the Diamonds, but you shouldn't hear deficiencies in the midrange like that.
post #12230 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Amp (SS) "break-in" is total nonsense. I can't believe some people still believe that stuff. biggrin.gif
You might as well believe that wires, cables, and power cords make a big difference. biggrin.gif
Most audiophiles have realized that the amps and speakers don't break-in. Our minds break-in and we get used to the sound. Kal Rubinson & Stereophile will also tell you that. wink.gif

I purchased 3 new speakers 2 weeks ago. After a few hours of listening I had to reduce the volume from -45 to -35 to have a comfortable listening level. Tonal quality did not change (not verified by measurements). I suppose this means that they did not break in.
post #12231 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by raycie View Post

Getting a huge bug to get a pair of CM1s to start off my system. System would be an all-in-one, music and movies. Starting off with a 2.1 then possibly expanding in the future. Sub will be something in the REL line. I need the ability to have AM/FM radio, and possibly hook up all my components (DVD, Wii, AppleTV) so they can be played from the speakers.
Looking at integrated amps, HT amps, etc. With an integrated, I would need a tuner and other components. With a HT amp/receiver, they would be an all-in-one.
Amp/Receiver options:
NAD T748 (average $700)
Yamaha HTR-4065 ($270 Costco)
Marantz (need to stay in the $500-700 range preferably)
NAD integrated (but would need separate components to complete. Unsure how I would integrate DVD/Wii, AppleTV)
I am by no means an audiophile, but I could hear and distinguish the difference between the CM1 and the 600-series. Amps can be upgraded in the future, but did want to spend good hard earned $$ on quality speakers (hence the CM1s). Would love to spend no more than $2,500 to start. CM1=$1,000 / REL = $600-800 / Speaker Stands = $200 / Amp = $500-$700..
Question:
1. If I go the cheap and easy (good enough for now) Yamaha from Costco is that enough power for the CM1s even in 2.1 mode?
2. NAD HT or integrated
3. Marantz, Denon, Onyko - Which one bang for the buck???
THANKS!!!..

The best bang for the buck is the Sony STR-DN1030. It can be had for $450. For those who will scoff, try it first.
post #12232 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I purchased 3 new speakers 2 weeks ago. After a few hours of listening I had to reduce the volume from -45 to -35 to have a comfortable listening level. Tonal quality did not change (not verified by measurements). I suppose this means that they did not break in.

I edited my post minutes before you posted. I didn't want to sound so tacky and such.

What happened to you happens all the time on any speaker. Music and movies are dynamic. Plus the levels vary from album to album and movie to movie. Many of us have to adjust our volume.

Also if your speakers are bright, your brain/ears can only handle so much volume until they hurt.

Even if your speakers are not bright at all, you may be listening too loudly.biggrin.gif

That has nothing to do with speaker or amp break-in. Even when speaker drivers "break-in" physically, there is absolutely no proof that there is any significant difference in the speaker measurement.
post #12233 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I edited my post minutes before you posted. I didn't want to sound so tacky and such.
What happened to you happens all the time on any speaker. Music and movies are dynamic. Plus the levels vary from album to album and movie to movie. Many of us have to adjust our volume.
Also if your speakers are bright, your brain/ears can only handle so much volume until they hurt.
Even if your speakers are not bright at all, you may be listening too loudly.biggrin.gif
That has nothing to do with speaker or amp break-in. Even when speaker drivers "break-in" physically, there is absolutely no proof that there is any significant difference in the speaker measurement.


This was noticed with adjusting speaker levels. I hope that you are aware that the signal sent from the receiver does not change dynamics.

No bright speakers in my home. Also I am talking about my predominant listening levels. Not reference levels. Remember, I said volume level not FR.
post #12234 of 17823
Lol, there is no way they will let me take them home and demo them because i heard them at bestbuy and at the speaker shop in buffalo and i already got attitude and pretty much shunned from that place for the simple fact that i "wasted to much of their time" as i had not bought anything after showing up there for the third time even though i brought a friend that bought headphones. I ended our relationship after that and when i asked if i could maybe hear the cm9's with an amp that i could afford i got an ear full in a negative manner about how "if i get a taste of a speaker then it will sound pretty much exactly the same with any amplifier. I just noticed that the cm9's had more punch with the higher end equipment they had them paired with but noticed a bit less when they where hooked up with a receiver at bestbuy. I wasn't telling him the he needed to hook them up (because god forbid they take five minutes to move the speakers to a different set-up) because i knew it was a long shot anyways but all he had to do was tell me no. I really did plan on buying speakers from there but one old guy in particular decided to be a complete jerk. Anyways, the cm9's i heard at best buy where in a dedicated room that was fully accoustic paneled up and there was a lot of space as there was only two other sets of speakers in the room that were on different walls. To me, it was an ideal setup.
I liked the smoothness, don't get me wrong but there is some instruments just sounded fake and artificial because of it.
I believe that the ports were open also
post #12235 of 17823
at best buy they were set up bi-amped and just 2.0 setup
also, i felt the same way about the mids all three times i heard them.
post #12236 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

It will certainly do the job no question there. I guess it just comes down to how critical your hearning is as you may not like the blending of the soundstage but then again you may not notice a thing. Can you get loan of a unit from your dealer to give a try at home, that would be the best thing to do.

I think I will try to get a loaner and see what they sound like. I'm doing alot of house work, so I don't think the wife will like me spending another few grand on a center.
post #12237 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

at best buy they were set up bi-amped and just 2.0 setup
also, i felt the same way about the mids all three times i heard them.

Well, that's why there are so many speakers out there. You will find one that you like.

KEF, Revel, Focal, Dynaudio, PSB, Paradigm.
post #12238 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Just had my 804Ds set up...
I wonder how long do Diamond owners run in their speakers, and how much toe in do you do?
Also, I currently have them about 50 cm from the rear wall, but there is not as much bass as my old 805s. How long before the real sound kicks in?

Cheers.

You need to put them at lest 3 feet from the wall, better 5-6 feet. Otherwise sound won't be correct. This type of speakers is designed to stand in the open space.
post #12239 of 17823
is the smoothness of the b&w's considered warm? Is this something that a lot of speaker manufacturers do to give enjoyment to the listener? Are there any other attributes that speaker companies can do to make them more enjoyable instead of being as true to the source as possible.
and yeah, i was just curious if you could think of any in particular that would possibly stand out to me. Maybe a PM?, highs never really bother me except for some energies that i heard that were super bland and reminded me of brushed cheap metalic sound. I do enjoy some sparkly highs though and preferably a good midbass punch when needed that can produce instruments with bass nature accurately. I can always fill the sub bass in with a sub. As for the midrange, i'm thinking neutral with a tad warmth or energy.
Even a cm9 type sound with more midbass punch would make me happy
post #12240 of 17823
is lush a word for describing smooth mids?
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