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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 410

post #12271 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

How is it totally FALSE? Has it been PROVEN scientifically that they all have a different SONIC SIGNATURE? Or is it just someone's opinion?
If the "differences" are not significant, it means they are not really audible.
Everyone has an opinion. But when they conduct Double-blinded studies of amps, people just can't seem to tell a statistically significant difference. Why is that? That is the closest thing to a scientic proof that amps don't have a different SIGNATURE SOUND of their own. Everything else is just 100% PURE PERSONAL OPINION. And everyone has an opinion or belief.
People will believe whatever they want to believe and spend their money however they want. It's a hobby. No right or wrong, no true or false way to enjoy. biggrin.gif

Amps are not supposed to alter the sound. Processors do. I am not aware of any scientific studies that prove people can't hear a difference in the AVR processors or pre/pro's.
The die hard crew that claims "all amps sound the came" does not make the claim that processors sound the same.
post #12272 of 17807
I don't see any scientific proof that that all amps sound the same. testing equipment only test one aspect of an amp (output). it doesn't test group delay or transition/dynamic etc. hardly conclusive lol.

that is because they don't sound the same lol.

there is no great conspiracy....

when i bought my mcintosh mc452 i was all set on the mc302. i thought they would sound exactly the same and the 302 would have fit my cabinet (and my wallet) better.

however i did hear a difference.

and it sounded a lot different than my linn amp that it replaced.

if you are happy with 150$ amp driving 200k speakers because it fits with you preconceived notions, good for you wink.gif

this is almost as funny as the nutjobs on the high efficiency speaker speaker thread latching onto the infatuation with a single spec of speakers and waxing poetic about theories and reference levels and transient peaks and scientific proofs without actually going out and listening with their own ears.
Edited by akhter - 12/8/12 at 4:54pm
post #12273 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

I don't see any scientific proof that that all amps sound the same. testing equipment only test one aspect of an amp (output). it doesn't test group delay or transition/dynamic etc. hardly conclusive lol.
that is because they don't sound the same lol.
there is no great conspiracy....
when i bought my mcintosh mc452 i was all set on the mc302. i thought they would sound exactly the same and the 302 would have fit my cabinet (and my wallet) better.
however i did hear a difference.
and it sounded a lot different than my linn amp that it replaced.
if you are happy with 150$ amp driving 200k speakers because it fits with you preconceived notions, good for you wink.gif
this is almost as funny as the nutjobs on the high efficiency speaker speaker thread latching onto the infatuation with a single spec of speakers and waxing poetic about theories and reference levels and transient peaks and scientific proofs without actually going out and listening with their own ears.

So let me get this straight. The DBTs that showed how audiophiles could not statistically tell the difference between amps is not SCIENTIFIC proof. But your word of mouth is SCIENTIFIC proof? eek.gifbiggrin.gif

Subjective opinion with pure BIAS is more proof than double-blinded test that removes BIAS?

Do you know what is a double-blinded test? And you know what bias is? And know what level matching is? No, it's not by ear.
post #12274 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Amps are not supposed to alter the sound. Processors do. I am not aware of any scientific studies that prove people can't hear a difference in the AVR processors or pre/pro's.
The die hard crew that claims "all amps sound the came" does not make the claim that processors sound the same.

When you put the processor in BYPASS mode like Pure Direct Mode (no RC, EQ, THX, DSP), you are taking the processor out of the equation. You are now looking at the preamp and amp.

If you use any kind of RC, EQ, THX, DSP, then yes, processors will sound differently from one another.

Notice when people measure pre-pro or AVR, they measure in Direct Mode and bypass the processor?
post #12275 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

So specifically in my system, I listen to computer based audio (stream ripped music), I stream some internet radio but not much, and listen to CDs.Would I benefit from an external DAC and at what price point considering my pre/pro may not be "high end" but is not exactly "low end"?

No you will not benefit from external DAC.

The DAC in $1K+ AVR is excellent. Just make sure you are BITSTREAMING to your AVR, not sending PCM signal to your AVR.

I think most PC DAC suck. biggrin.gif

But the DAC inside $1K+ AVR are excellent. Look at their spec. Their SNR is like -120dB, THD like 0.001%, etc.

The Audio Critic tested DAC, amps, and stereo preamps. Through DBTs, they concluded that these don't significant sound differently at all. But processors (RC, EQ, Tones, DSP) do sound differently.
post #12276 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

So let me get this straight. The DBTs that showed how audiophiles could not statistically tell the difference between amps is not SCIENTIFIC proof. But your word of mouth is SCIENTIFIC proof? eek.gifbiggrin.gif
Subjective opinion with pure BIAS is more proof than double-blinded test that removes BIAS?
Do you know what is a double-blinded test? And you know what bias is? And know what level matching is? No, it's not by ear.

as i said be happy with the $150 amps that you don't acatually use wink.gif

so you don't actually practice what you preach....

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/FAQ_-_Tune_Dem

i don't buy systems based on what others think....
post #12277 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

I'd like to hear more on this "Even a cheap dac will enhance your experience." My Onkyo pre/pro has six 192/32bit burr-brown DACs. Why would a cheap external DAC make it sound better? Part of the reason I am asking is because I was looking (not listening) at the Peachtree DAC iT and cannot for the life of me explain to myself how the external DAC would be better than the stuff that is already in the Onkyo.
Your opinions would be appreciated.

It's called business. How can they sell any DAC, amps, preamps, wires, cables, CD players if everyone believes in double-blinded studies that show these things don't make a significant difference like speakers, placement, setup.

Let's just be agreeable and say that sure, all amps and preamps and DAC are "different".

Even so. The biggest impact, the biggest most significant difference will be the speakers. Not anything else (assuming your room is not made of glass or is the size of a small closet, but is traditional with drapes, curtains, carpets, rugs, paintings, books, sofas).
post #12278 of 17807
ahh....that must be it.

there is a great conspiracy. its called business.

and you will expose all the frauds in the industry while you get defrauded yourself by buying several 1000+ plus amps that you list in your signature.

lol...
post #12279 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

as i said be happy with the $150 amps that you don't acatually use wink.gif
so you don't actually practice what you preach....
http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/FAQ_-_Tune_Dem
i don't buy systems based on what others think....

I'm just being "scientific" and unbiased. Maybe it's because I see double-blinded drug studies all the time at the hospital where I work and so I think more scientific. Heck even before I graduated, DBT of drugs were pounded into my head when I was a student.

I see nothing wrong with buying $20,000 amps, preamps, or even wires and cords if you have the money. It's all for fun. It's a hobby. Enjoy.

At the same time, being a scientific mind, I can't help but believe in DBT when others don't believe. biggrin.gif

It is all for fun. We don't need to agree. Sure, if you can hear the difference, that's all that matters. We're just debating. biggrin.gif

It's just funny seeing people basically say, "My amp or preamp or AVR is better than yours because I say so. It must be true. Must be fact. Sony or Onkyo or Denon or Yamaha or Pioneer or Marantz must be crap. Arcam or McIntosh must be best, etc." Its funny. Like kids in school. Mine's better than yours. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
post #12280 of 17807
DVLDARI, how are you getting music into your receiver? Is it digital(usb, spdif, coax) or analog (out of a computer would usually be a 3.5 to 3.5 or 3.5 to rca)
There is a market for Dacs. Some very cheap and some very expensive. To me, my investment in a dac was the best thing i ever bought for anything audio related. The brand and model of the chip used in each is not always a sign that the device sounds good. But there are some chips that are know for what they can do like the Sabre32 9018 chip is know for eliminating jitter. What the manufacturer does after that to make the music happen is up to them. ( i don't know if they can actually voice it)
A cd player/bluray player, pre/amp, receiver are basically dac's. I use a cheap lg bluray player and send the digital to my DAC to decode to analog or usb out of my computer to my dac and then rca to receiver or amp. Basically a dac's job is to eliminate jitter and decode 0's and 1's. There is a lot of decoding to do in music and especially hi-res.
post #12281 of 17807
my eyes keep closing on me so if you can't comprehend what i'm saying then it's def my fault. Just search for what a DAC does. You'll get your answer. To me, it's a necessity.
post #12282 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

my eyes keep closing on me so if you can't comprehend what i'm saying then it's def my fault. Just search for what a DAC does. You'll get your answer. To me, it's a necessity.

Hey, I'd like to hear more of your opinion and anyone else's.

I do know what a DAC does, which is why I question why my $2300 or whatever pre/pro's DAC is not good enough, but a $500 DAC is much better? I use my PS3 to bitstream digital to my PR-SC5508. I also use the PS3 to stream music (mostly mp3s) from my computer. About the only thing I can't do with my PR-SC5508 is hook it up to my laptop and stream youtube or whatever to it (something you can do with an external DAC.
post #12283 of 17807
DVLDARI, i was originally talking to Raycie because he bought new equipment and asked if he'd missed anything. I don't know if your receiver is as good sounding as a dedicated dac or not. Everything on audio involved is personal preference anyways. Don't usually find any threads about differences in DAC's in difference receivers.
Btw your receiver probably has six DAC's because it more than likely uses one for each channel.
post #12284 of 17807
yes it would
post #12285 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

It's called business. How can they sell any DAC, amps, preamps, wires, cables, CD players if everyone believes in double-blinded studies that show these things don't make a significant difference like speakers, placement, setup.Let's just be agreeable and say that sure, all amps and preamps and DAC are "different". Even so. The biggest impact, the biggest most significant difference will be the speakers. Not anything else (assuming your room is not made of glass or is the size of a small closet, but is traditional with drapes, curtains, carpets, rugs, paintings, books, sofas).

Yes

1. Your ears & your mood
2. Room
3. Speakers
4. Recording
5. Amps, Source
6. Pre/pro
7. Cables
post #12286 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

DVLDARI, i was originally talking to Raycie because he bought new equipment and asked if he'd missed anything. I don't know if your receiver is as good sounding as a dedicated dac or not. Everything on audio involved is personal preference anyways. Don't usually find any threads about differences in DAC's in difference receivers.
Btw your receiver probably has six DAC's because it more than likely uses one for each channel.

O.K. without trying to start a long winded this, that, and everything else, I will be using a marantz 5007. Using either streaming via ethernet, plugged in USB, or via apple TV. For now, using an existing DVD player to play any CDs. I know that alone I would definitely notice a difference between what I have now (Sony HT in box) and the HUGE upgrade I'm getting, but would a dedicated DAC for the USB or the streaming appleTV be a noticeable difference than just using the 5007???

If yes, the what under $300 would do the job nicely.
If no, cool and I can start saving up for CM8s and a center channel.
post #12287 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by raycie View Post

O.K. without trying to start a long winded this, that, and everything else, I will be using a marantz 5007. Using either streaming via ethernet, plugged in USB, or via apple TV. For now, using an existing DVD player to play any CDs. I know that alone I would definitely notice a difference between what I have now (Sony HT in box) and the HUGE upgrade I'm getting, but would a dedicated DAC for the USB or the streaming appleTV be a noticeable difference than just using the 5007???
If yes, the what under $300 would do the job nicely.
If no, cool and I can start saving up for CM8s and a center channel.
I would hold off on a DAC for now and get your speakers sorted. If you find room correction helps (Audyssey) then going from a DAC to analog and back to digital sort of defeats the purpose. If you find you prefer no DSP such as pure direct (or whatever Marantz calls it) then later consider it. Speakers are much more important now. Just my opinion.
post #12288 of 17807
Not sure if this is the done thing to start a new topic - but here goes!

Does anyone know how to dismantle the 686? I dropped a screw in the rear port and need to get it out. I found the service manual but would like some tips first - photos even?

Cheers in advance.
post #12289 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

I won't use room correction for 2.0 Besides the audio going into the receiver was analog via my dac. Can you do room correction without the receiver taking it back to digital and then analog again? That would defeat the purpose of having a good DAC anyways i would think. I didn't know the midwoofer of the cm9's where exposed to the bass woofers allowing plugs to change them.

Room correction would be done in the digital domain, so it would be converted. However unless you have a really kind room or a particularly poor receiver, I would say you will end up with much better sound feeding the receiver/processor a digital signal and allowing it to apply corrections. My previous setup was a Rotel preamp without room correction. I spent a fair amount of time setting it up and tweaking it. The Onkyo with Audyssey yields a much better result. 2 channel material benefited just as much from this as multi channel did.

The midrange is effected by the plugs in my setup. Not night and day, but it is certainly noticeable.
post #12290 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

1) I would not spend money on Audioquest cables since they don't do anything better than Blue Jeans Cable or a lot of other much less expensive cables. That is unless these cables were used at low price. biggrin.gif

Does Blue Jeans use Nerotech for their wire?
post #12291 of 17807
So you don't believe in speaker break in?
post #12292 of 17807
Quote:

The midrange is effected by the plugs in my setup. Not night and day, but it is certainly noticeable.

Some speakers have parasitic sounds emitted from port in 500-1000Hz range. Plug changes that behavior. That is likely what you experienced.
post #12293 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

So you don't believe in speaker break in?

I don't believe in speaker break-in or amp break-in.

Some people believe, some don't believe. There's no true or false. It's cool either way.

The only proof anyone has to back up these break-in's is their subjective opinion - "I heard a difference, I had to turn the volume down", etc.

But I'm confident all the gurus in the industry don't believe in speaker or amp break-in. biggrin.gif
post #12294 of 17807
My friends and i bought a pair of the same headphones at the same time because i had found such a good deal on them. I was curious and willing to sacrifice. I didn't use mine for two days while he burnt his in. The most notable change to both of us was the bass tightened and seemed to let the mids come out more. Whole headphone seemed less strained. Just saying. not saying you're wrong but maybe it's because i'm left handed or something lol smh
post #12295 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

My friends and i bought a pair of the same headphones at the same time because i had found such a good deal on them. I was curious and willing to sacrifice. I didn't use mine for two days while he burnt his in. The most notable change to both of us was the bass tightened and seemed to let the mids come out more. Whole headphone seemed less strained. Just saying. not saying you're wrong but maybe it's because i'm left handed or something lol smh

Brains break-in.

(there's *some* argument for speaker break-in; but it's very quick)
post #12296 of 17807
^Yup.

Speaker drivers do have a measurable amount of breakin. But how audible it is is often exaggerated, as is how long it takes to happen.
post #12297 of 17807
Just brought a pair of CM9s. Anyone really felt the break in after a while. Even the dealer mentioned they will break in after 40 hours of playing.
Using nova amp 220 and novapre for amp and preamp respectively...
post #12298 of 17807
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I don't believe in speaker break-in or amp break-in.
Some people believe, some don't believe. There's no true or false. It's cool either way.
The only proof anyone has to back up these break-in's is their subjective opinion - "I heard a difference, I had to turn the volume down", etc.
But I'm confident all the gurus in the industry don't believe in speaker or amp break-in. biggrin.gif

It all depends on the equipment my friend, some amplifiers have capacitors that change with time and can take days or even weeks before they are relaxed and produce their full potential. Not all do but some have this effect and the same goes for other audio equipment's that have this outcome.
Speakers also can change in sound, i had the chance to challenge myself and a friend into doing blind test's with two B&W 683 which both had different break in times. One was straight out of the box and the other was a floor model which had been used for quite a few months, we set the two on a switch and proceeded with some random comparisons with both of us testing each other so we were not vulnerable to cheating or incorrect testing.
We were quite enjoyable able to tell the difference and understand why, this is not the case for all speakers and it is so very dependent on the materials used from different variants of speaker technology and i think the b&w have the most complex of materials which is probably why it should be more noticeable.
Experience is very important in discovering what is true and what is not, if you have unbiased judgement and tend to not be affected by placebo then you probably have the best chance to test things accurately, people like to judge things based on technical research evidence and however much that is quite reliable there are things that cannot be tested or proven at least not with equipment. Physical changes in audio equipment can affect the sound output but show no changes in the signal when tested and these are one of the things that people don't sometimes grasp but engineers do understand why.
post #12299 of 17807
I am thinking about getting the center channel and am wondering if I should get the HTM4 Diamond or the HTM2 Diamond. Considering this speaker will only be used for movies/TV and will likely be crossed over at 80Hz, I am having a hard time justifying to myself why I should be spending twice as much on the HTM2 vs. the HTM4. On the other hand, I know that there must be a difference in sound between the two because there is a difference in sound between the 805D2 and the rest of the range. Unfortunately, it is not likely that I will be able to audition either of these prior to purchasing (no one seems to stock them). Thanks for your help.
post #12300 of 17807
I was also pondering about keeping my HTM4s or paying treble the price for a HTM2D..
Decided to use Audyssey and save some $$.
But if you have the $$ and space, I don't think you will be unhappy with the HTM2D wink.gif

I used the money for a new KK DXD 808 sub instead to give more mid bass punch..
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