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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 411

post #12301 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

I am thinking about getting the center channel and am wondering if I should get the HTM4 Diamond or the HTM2 Diamond. Considering this speaker will only be used for movies/TV and will likely be crossed over at 80Hz, I am having a hard time justifying to myself why I should be spending twice as much on the HTM2 vs. the HTM4. On the other hand, I know that there must be a difference in sound between the two because there is a difference in sound between the 805D2 and the rest of the range. Unfortunately, it is not likely that I will be able to audition either of these prior to purchasing (no one seems to stock them). Thanks for your help.

I could spend pages and pages of why I think you should get the bigger center. In fact, I have in previous posts. Here is the simple answer from me. If you primarily watch movies/tv/other video sources, the center channel speaker is where you should spend your money. Some argue the center is just dialogue. I would say Phllldfhjghjdlgne;dgvhjn ilgbvn !!!!!!!!!!!! If you listen to multichannel video a huge, and I mean HUGE amount of content is fed to the center relative to all other speakers. Old school stereophiles will tell you to focus on the L/R experience....... again I say bullpucky. If you are a 90% plus movie watcher - spend on the center. I have but alowly HTM3S and it is somewhat inferior to my B&W 803S L/R and I covet a bigger badder center. If I can grow my personal business 35% in revenue in the next few years, I will be uinting down the crazy huge discontinued 8---D series center and building a new front around it.

Strong opinion here, if you can tell.
post #12302 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I could spend pages and pages of why I think you should get the bigger center. In fact, I have in previous posts. Here is the simple answer from me. If you primarily watch movies/tv/other video sources, the center channel speaker is where you should spend your money. Some argue the center is just dialogue. I would say Phllldfhjghjdlgne;dgvhjn ilgbvn !!!!!!!!!!!! If you listen to multichannel video a huge, and I mean HUGE amount of content is fed to the center relative to all other speakers. Old school stereophiles will tell you to focus on the L/R experience....... again I say bullpucky. If you are a 90% plus movie watcher - spend on the center. I have but alowly HTM3S and it is somewhat inferior to my B&W 803S L/R and I covet a bigger badder center. If I can grow my personal business 35% in revenue in the next few years, I will be uinting down the crazy huge discontinued 8---D series center and building a new front around it.
Strong opinion here, if you can tell.

Could you point me to the right thread?

I definitely spend more time listening to music but not in a "critical" way. On average we watch one movie a week but more HD TV.

Interesting that you should mention the “old school stereophiles ”. My sales person was suggesting I spend more money to upgrade my 802D2 amps and worry less about the center. His suggestion was to even go with something lesser from the CM line or even the 600 line. I said, if I am going to go to the 600 line, there is no reason to change my current center. So either diamond or I keep what I have . So he suggested the HTM4. Which got me thinking about it. It’s half the money so I would have some $ left over for a subwoofer upgrade. Considering that I will cross it over at 80Hz, how would I benefit from the HTM2?

Thanks for your opinions, keep them coming.
post #12303 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I could spend pages and pages of why I think you should get the bigger center. In fact, I have in previous posts. Here is the simple answer from me. If you primarily watch movies/tv/other video sources, the center channel speaker is where you should spend your money. Some argue the center is just dialogue. I would say Phllldfhjghjdlgne;dgvhjn ilgbvn !!!!!!!!!!!! If you listen to multichannel video a huge, and I mean HUGE amount of content is fed to the center relative to all other speakers. Old school stereophiles will tell you to focus on the L/R experience....... again I say bullpucky. If you are a 90% plus movie watcher - spend on the center. I have but alowly HTM3S and it is somewhat inferior to my B&W 803S L/R and I covet a bigger badder center. If I can grow my personal business 35% in revenue in the next few years, I will be uinting down the crazy huge discontinued 8---D series center and building a new front around it.
Strong opinion here, if you can tell.

Except that the dialog, and gunshots and cars, etc all transition across the entire soundstage. When you watch the gunfight in the Matrix and you hear two distinctly different sounds for the same gun depending on where it is; it gets old quick.

The center should be an exact match for the L/R for precisely this reason. It doesn't matter if 3 voices come out the center for every 1 that comes out the right channel; when they sound different: that's a problem.

And I've run an L/C/R with B&W's big (pre-D) center. It was a very nice speaker and the most beautiful center I've ever laid eyes upon.
post #12304 of 17972
BVLDARI
You may want to check the size of your listening space. Big speakers are nice, but if you are like me and sit about 2.5m from the action, there can be phase coherence issues too. I am keen on the links to the bigger is always bigger thing too.

Regards
post #12305 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

Except that the dialog, and gunshots and cars, etc all transition across the entire soundstage. When you watch the gunfight in the Matrix and you hear two distinctly different sounds for the same gun depending on where it is; it gets old quick.
The center should be an exact match for the L/R for precisely this reason. It doesn't matter if 3 voices come out the center for every 1 that comes out the right channel; when they sound different: that's a problem.
And I've run an L/C/R with B&W's big (pre-D) center. It was a very nice speaker and the most beautiful center I've ever laid eyes upon.

Hey, wait.... I agree...... sort of....... In my system my center is currently marginally less capable than my L/R. I have 803S's for L/R and an HTM3S for the center. The HTM3S is essentially a non ported flopped over 804S. It has slightly smaller bass and mid bass drivers than my 803S's and because it is not ported; it simply sounds weaker, suckier,(OK I could add all the cool subjective words here) than my 803S's. Ideally, it would be great to have exactly the same fronts for L,R, and Center. I do not have this. Also, my bias (and a very subjective one at that) is if I must have an imbalance in my fronts, I am stallwart and emphatically a recommender of overemphasizing the capabilities of the center. My system unfortunately is tilted the wrong way. You will see on this and other threadsthat enthusiasts with crazy setups and budgets superior to mine seem to feel the same way. If'n you be a movie guy all three fronts da-same or go whacko on the center.

I stand firmly by my original stament and yet do not disagree with your comment....... Hope that clears up my thoughts........
post #12306 of 17972
Well, I may bepof no help. Remember the B&W centers are not ported. The HTM2 Diamond looks awesome but maybe it is my old ears. I perceive a difference in charachter between my ported 803S's and the nonported HTM3S center. It seems real to me... I live with my system every night. I use to have the old small ported center coupled with my N805's and the sound stage / non eq'd was more similar across the two type of speakers. Now if you add good room design and advanced EQ processing, the difference is less. I would really prefer a large ported center to match my similar L/R.

OK, I may be of no help but this. Can you get your salesperson to let you trial both centers in your room under your own controlled experience? I still prefer a better bigger center. Always will. I can also not give you a buttoned down scientific reason for this other than my experience in my room. So I suggest you try the same. I will also add too many sales geeks are stereo centric. If you are a TV/Movie guy go a little imbalanced on thee center. I think you will like it better as the dialogue alone will definately improve. It did for me in upgrading to the bigger (albeit non-ported) center.
post #12307 of 17972
HTM4 center is ported.

The HTM2 lists as "vented" on the site; but I don't remember there being a port on mine.
post #12308 of 17972
My htm 2d has 2 ports on the rear of the speaker.
post #12309 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

HTM4 center is ported.
The HTM2 lists as "vented" on the site; but I don't remember there being a port on mine.

My HTM2 Diamond has two rear ports also.
post #12310 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

I am thinking about getting the center channel and am wondering if I should get the HTM4 Diamond or the HTM2 Diamond. Considering this speaker will only be used for movies/TV and will likely be crossed over at 80Hz, I am having a hard time justifying to myself why I should be spending twice as much on the HTM2 vs. the HTM4. On the other hand, I know that there must be a difference in sound between the two because there is a difference in sound between the 805D2 and the rest of the range. Unfortunately, it is not likely that I will be able to audition either of these prior to purchasing (no one seems to stock them). Thanks for your help.

i went thought the exact same thing a few months ago... what are your left and right speakers? that is the bigger question.

My system.... 4 X 804S.... fronts and rears.... i originally purchased the htm4S as my center (htm4S= 805S) they are basicly the same speaker.

it sounded good, don't get me wrong. but there was something missing about the sound.

i had a chance to purchase an htm3S and i did. i as people all the time if they can REALLY hear a difference when the subject of upgrading a system comes up. you will get three types of people on these forums...1 people who will give you the specs of equipment.....2. people who do not know much about the topic and give their opinion just to post and....3 people who have made the same change and their opinion. so be careful of the information.

what i know on this topic is this.

the htm3S is a far better center to the htm4S if you have speakers in the front of 804 or larger. if you have 805 for the front then get the htm4 because it is the same speaker for the most part and that is what you want.... three front speakers that are the same or as close as possible.

To people who believe the center channel is just dialog.... you obviously are mistakin. yes the dialing comes out of the center BUT so does ALOT of other sound.
post #12311 of 17972
In my experience between the two center channels, for my application the htm3S is far superior to the htm4S because it matches my 804S exactly. this is because it is basicly the same speaker. and YES you can hear the difference it is a big difference.

if i had 803 802 or 800 i would just get one of the same speakers and use it as a center.

Bill
post #12312 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by [DANGERDAN] View Post

It all depends on the equipment my friend, some amplifiers have capacitors that change with time and can take days or even weeks before they are relaxed and produce their full potential. Not all do but some have this effect and the same goes for other audio equipment's that have this outcome.
Speakers also can change in sound, i had the chance to challenge myself and a friend into doing blind test's with two B&W 683 which both had different break in times. One was straight out of the box and the other was a floor model which had been used for quite a few months, we set the two on a switch and proceeded with some random comparisons with both of us testing each other so we were not vulnerable to cheating or incorrect testing.
We were quite enjoyable able to tell the difference and understand why, this is not the case for all speakers and it is so very dependent on the materials used from different variants of speaker technology and i think the b&w have the most complex of materials which is probably why it should be more noticeable.
Experience is very important in discovering what is true and what is not, if you have unbiased judgement and tend to not be affected by placebo then you probably have the best chance to test things accurately, people like to judge things based on technical research evidence and however much that is quite reliable there are things that cannot be tested or proven at least not with equipment. Physical changes in audio equipment can affect the sound output but show no changes in the signal when tested and these are one of the things that people don't sometimes grasp but engineers do understand why.

Most people believe they are immune to placebo and bias. Only those who have been in true double-blinded tests (which means NO ONE KNOWS which is which, not even the person conducting the test) will say they are not so immune. In a DBT, only the person setting up or preparing the test knows, but that person (3rd party) cannot have any contact with anyone involved with the study or be part of the study in any way (like planning the test).
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 12/11/12 at 5:59am
post #12313 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Most people believe they are immune to placebo and bias. Only those who have been in true double-blinded tests (which means NO ONE KNOWS which is which, not even the person conducting the test) will say they are not so immune. In a DBT, only the person setting up or preparing the test knows, but that person (3rd party) cannot have any contact with anyone involved with the study or be part of the study in any way (like planning the test).

Do you believe that measurements verify speakers have changed with break in?
post #12314 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Do you believe that measurements verify speakers have changed with break in?
There's no question that woofer response can change with break in, as Fs can come down by as much a 10%. Midranges and tweeters can have a lowering of Fs as well, but not as much, and it's less audible. However, the period of break-in for typical drivers is no more than 40 hours of use, if not less.
If you see any manufacturer claiming break-in periods of more than 40 hours are required that's snake oil; the only thing that changes after 40 hours is that you get used to the sound, even if it's bad. As for electronics and cables, there is no break in, and any manufacturer that claims otherwise is either a fool or takes you to be one. If you buy into their piffle, you are. rolleyes.gif
post #12315 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Some speakers have parasitic sounds emitted from port in 500-1000Hz range. Plug changes that behavior. That is likely what you experienced.

Sounds plausible. I remember one of the reviews of the CM's commenting on the plugs effecting the midrange. I think the reviewer had a similar experience (plugs increasing the midrange response), but can't recall for sure.

As far as the speaker break in discussion. I thought the CM's broke in slightly after listening to them for a while, but I'm very willing to admit that it is just as likely my brain acclimated to them. After living with the previous speakers for 17 years, it's certainly possible.
post #12316 of 17972
I auditioned Revel Studio2s that were brand new out of the box. The bass opened up noticeably over 2-4 hours. So much so that I had to adjust the bass compensation on the speakers - ADTG gave me the heads up on that tweak. They were not boomy to begin with but sure did later until adjusting. Very obvious break in.
post #12317 of 17972
As far as the center channel debate between the HTM2D and HTM3s or HTM4s goes, I would most definitely go with the HTM2D over the other two. If you compare them both side by side, the HTM2D would top the other two in a night and day type difference.

The absolute best center channel that I have ever had the pleasure of hearing was the HTM1D. It was absolutely jaw dropping and amazing!

If I ever come across a really good deal on an HTM2D, I would pick it up in a heart beat and use it as my center channel regardless of what L's and R's I happen to be using at the moment.
post #12318 of 17972
Hey guys, I made one big assumption when I asked the question – that you knew what my side speakers are.

So let’s start here: I have 802D2 left and right.

I am only considering HTM2D2 and the HTM4D2. Tweeters are identical on these two. The midrange is not and the HTM4 doesn’t have “bass” drivers at all. W/o question, the HTM2D2 will be a better “match” although it is not a “perfect" match. The HTM2D2 is clearly a perfect match for the 803D2 and the HTM4D2 is clearly based on the 805D2. The HTM2D2 is twice the price of the HTM4D2. That is a decent amount of money that I could spend toward a sub amps or other things. The question I have, is the HTM4D2 close “enough” given that it will be crossed over at 80Hz, the price difference, and both are the same line with identical tweeters.

To answer some questions:
1. I sit about 12 feet (3.65m) away from the TV.
2. I don’t have excess space nor money, so both are a consideration, although I could make both work.
3. I will likely not even be able to audition the centers, it does not appear that anyone around here stocks either of them.
post #12319 of 17972
hi guys,

how would 686's fair paired up with a denon 1612? I am looking to use these as mains with a svs pb12? 90%HT 10% music room 13x17x8
post #12320 of 17972
Buyers Remorse...

And I didn't even get my stuff yet.

Here is what I ordered:
CM1
REL T5
Marantz Receiver

Was "thinking" that i would do a CMC then possibly C8s in the future. (after my wife accepts the fact that 2 speakers CAN cost over $1,000..lol..).. Wondering if I should have just pushed out the extra $1,000 and gotten the C8s first..

Which package would you be happy with if this was what it was going to be for a while..

Package 1:
CM1s / CMC / REL T5

Package 2:
C8 / Rel T5

Does package 1 come out better as you already have the low frequencies from the sub and the center channel for at least 3.1???
post #12321 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by raycie View Post

Buyers Remorse...
And I didn't even get my stuff yet.
Here is what I ordered:
CM1
REL T5
Marantz Receiver
Was "thinking" that i would do a CMC then possibly C8s in the future. (after my wife accepts the fact that 2 speakers CAN cost over $1,000..lol..).. Wondering if I should have just pushed out the extra $1,000 and gotten the C8s first..
Which package would you be happy with if this was what it was going to be for a while..
Package 1:
CM1s / CMC / REL T5
Package 2:
C8 / Rel T5
Does package 1 come out better as you already have the low frequencies from the sub and the center channel for at least 3.1???


In my opinion it depends on whether or not you watch a lot of movies/TV.

If yes, then in my opinion you “must” have a center channel. I personally do not like listening to people talk in a movie in Stereo. If not, then I would spend extra money on the towers.

If you do go with the center channel, then I would consider whether or not the CMC or CMC2 is a better option, depending on where you are going to go in the future (you can see above I have a similar dilemma).
post #12322 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Do you believe that measurements verify speakers have changed with break in?

Human Error tolerance in measurement as well.

If you measure the same speaker 15 minutes apart, you may get 2 slightly different measurements. That does not mean a speaker has broken-in after 15 minutes.

And even if you can physically measure the very slight change in speaker drivers, even ignoring the tolerance of human error, the audible difference is insignificant.
post #12323 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


Midranges and tweeters can have a lowering of Fs as well, but not as much, and it's less audible....

As for electronics and cables, there is no break in, and any manufacturer that claims otherwise is either a fool or takes you to be one. If you buy into their piffle, you are. rolleyes.gif

Try convincing some people that their amps don't break-in. biggrin.gif

Some don't even believe that 30 days is a long enough period for amps to break-in. biggrin.gif

And just 40 hrs for their speakers to break-in? Say it ain't so. biggrin.gif
post #12324 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

Hey guys, I made one big assumption when I asked the question – that you knew what my side speakers are.
So let’s start here: I have 802D2 left and right.
I am only considering HTM2D2 and the HTM4D2. Tweeters are identical on these two. The midrange is not and the HTM4 doesn’t have “bass” drivers at all. W/o question, the HTM2D2 will be a better “match” although it is not a “perfect" match. The HTM2D2 is clearly a perfect match for the 803D2 and the HTM4D2 is clearly based on the 805D2. The HTM2D2 is twice the price of the HTM4D2. That is a decent amount of money that I could spend toward a sub amps or other things. The question I have, is the HTM4D2 close “enough” given that it will be crossed over at 80Hz, the price difference, and both are the same line with identical tweeters.
To answer some questions:
1. I sit about 12 feet (3.65m) away from the TV.
2. I don’t have excess space nor money, so both are a consideration, although I could make both work.
3. I will likely not even be able to audition the centers, it does not appear that anyone around here stocks either of them.

I'm a happy owner of the a HTM4D but one thing I need to say my room is a very small room (I was sitting 2 mts from them) so in this room the HTM4D is a very useful center speaker, I was set my xover to a 80Hz and it blend very well with my 804D, I'm a music guy and uses my center only for movies and some concerts in blu ray (BTW in all my bluray concerts the center speaker is not use, nothing is come out from this speaker) in this scenary the HTM4D is a perfect speaker and it fill any of my needs. many people say that HTM2Di will be a better speaker and maybe they are right but if you evaluate that it will cost twice and you not will use a lot i think is better put your money in other place. Some months ago I changed my 804S for 805D like my surround speakers because I felt the blend in my MCH music was better with all tweeter matched so not all times a bigger speaker is better.

BTW I will change my 804 for the 802Di and I will keep my center; it's just my five cents.
post #12325 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

And even if you can physically measure the very slight change in speaker drivers, even ignoring the tolerance of human error, the audible difference is insignificant.
When woofer Fs can drop by 10% it's hardly insignificant, especially if the enclosure is vented and designed to work with a specific set of T/S specs, which are measured by driver manufacturers post-break in. IME most of those who argue against the efficacy of woofer break in don't know what Fs is, nor have they ever tested raw versus broken in drivers or speakers.
post #12326 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There's no question that woofer response can change with break in... However, the period of break-in for typical drivers is no more than 40 hours of use, if not less...

Howdy Bill,

what's your opinion about Audioholics way of seeing speakers break-in, which, btw, is a mere 03 seconds?? Just couldn't find the link though, but that's what they said way back when...
post #12327 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Try convincing some people that their amps don't break-in. biggrin.gif
Some don't even believe that 30 days is a long enough period for amps to break-in. biggrin.gif
And just 40 hrs for their speakers to break-in? Say it ain't so. biggrin.gif

the manual of the diamond series said:

"The time taken for the speakers to achieve their intended performance will vary depending on previous storage conditions and how it is used. As a guide, allow up to a week for the temperature effects to stabilise and 15 hours of average use for the mechanical parts to attain their intended design characteristics."

I don't know why people are talking for break in periods of months or 40h biggrin.gif
post #12328 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

In my opinion it depends on whether or not you watch a lot of movies/TV.
If yes, then in my opinion you “must” have a center channel. I personally do not like listening to people talk in a movie in Stereo. If not, then I would spend extra money on the towers.
If you do go with the center channel, then I would consider whether or not the CMC or CMC2 is a better option, depending on where you are going to go in the future (you can see above I have a similar dilemma).

In the end, and the upper range if my budget, i am thinking of building the CM8 theater package. I believe that comes with the CM8 / CM1 / and CMC. I was just thinking where i should start.

As i will be watching movies as well as music, i think i will add in the cmc first, then save up for the final CM8 purchase... Thanks.
post #12329 of 17972
Quote:
Originally Posted by raycie View Post

In the end, and the upper range if my budget, i am thinking of building the CM8 theater package. I believe that comes with the CM8 / CM1 / and CMC. I was just thinking where i should start.
As i will be watching movies as well as music, i think i will add in the cmc first, then save up for the final CM8 purchase... Thanks.
I think some CM owners need to weigh in but from what I know go for the CMC2, a better center choice.
post #12330 of 17972
Any input if I would be able to reach ref levels with 685's and 75watts per channel in my 13x17x8 room?
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