B&W Owner's Thread - Page 417

I think for music thats the ticket. Just got back from Magnolia, went to give the CMC2's one final listen before committing and while i was there listened to the 803 Diamonds hooked up to a Mac stack. The salesman cranked SRV and i was in heaven. If i was in a position to upgrade my 2 channel rig right now i would buy those speakers and components without hesitation.

+1

I couldn't care less about the "coolness" factor of having a big name well known amplifier if I can't distinguish what it offers over a reliable brand that costs a fraction of the cost like Emotiva.

Hey all,

I am looking into upgrading my surround system to a set of B&Ws. Price-wise, I can afford either the larger 600 series or the smaller CMs. I get a larger speaker set with the big 600 series towers and center. On the other hand, I get a higher quality stepping up to the small CM Series towers and center. I'm really torn. Does anyone have any experience with both these models and can point me in a direction? Thanks in advance for the help.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to start this debate. I am just frustrated because as a consumer on a limited budget, time and resources – I have limited ways to figure out what’s “best” for me. Basically my only real options are reading reviews and asking a lot of questions from people who own similar equipment.

And what sucks is that I am finding that the answers to the same exact question couldn’t be more polar opposite. Such as bi-amping and bi-wiring. Something that to me would be a fundamentally easy question to answer. Take two identical amps and hook them up with two identical wires. Then hook up the same amp with the same cable but bridge the speaker. And finally use the same amp/cable but bi-wire them. Report the results. Simple enough in theory but you ask the question and people will fight to the death on two opposite sides.

At the same time, I ask a question which most “non golden ear” people should be able to answer – is the htm2 worth the extra money over htm4, what are the differences, blah blah. And I get 3-4 responses with no definitive answer. Yet, on things like amps and cables, everyone seems to have the “right” answer.

Ok, I am done ranting for now. ..

I just got back from the store where i was there primarily to listen to the CM Center 2 but they were paired the the CM9's. I'm running the 683 and didn't think there was a appreciable difference between the 683 and CM9. I know you said your looking a the lower CM range but that's my take based on what i've heard. The CM's are cosmetically much much nicer though, thats for sure. *this is in response to JW's question.

"worth" is an unanswerable question. A Bughatti Veyron SS costs $2,426,904, while the standard Veyron costs $1,700,000. Is it worth the extra $726,904?

And also: we come into subjective vs objective. Does something sound "different" is an objective question. There is a right and wrong answer. Does something sound "better" is a potentially subjective question, and more open to debate (so less religiously held). Is the "better" sound "worth the cost" is completely subjective. We know we don't have an answer true to someone else.

I used to own an HTM4. I've never owned an HTM2. I could not tell you. Since I run 801's, I would not have tried an HTM4 because it "wouldn't match". Conversely: if I were running the bookshelves (806?) then I wouldn't consider using an HTM2.

The empirical differences are spelled out in the spec sheets.

Ok, so how can it be so difficult to answer a simple question between two clearly different speakers, but at the same time people can tell me w/o the shadow of a doubt that cable A sounds better than cable A times two going to the same speaker - all other things being the same?

I think you have planted yourself into a hobby that draws a lot of passion. Just like exotic sports cars, audiophiles have strong opinions; not all based on some specific technical data point. Also, this is the internet. You never will know who is a 13 year old kid sitting in his room, listening to music on BIC speakers from 1997; handed down from pop - all the while advising you on what $20,000 amplifier to buy. Also, as you go up the cost scale, obviously you will get passionate people telling you why you need to buy the best of everything across the equipment spectrum. So, a lot of this comes down to you determining your budget, purchasing the equipment and you setting up your listening/viewing room. Utilize sane heads to develop your own opinion.

I have seen some silly stuff though. Just my opinion so here goes.

1). I think a few pages back you were told to turn off EQ and just listen to the speakers to determine quality. I find this weird as just about every situation is improved with EQ from a good pre/AVR. I recommend Audyssey XT32 capable devices. I guess you could get a feel for the speaker without EQ but really I'd try and use the technology you have available.

2). My order of where to spend money - Remember this is my order.

A). Room Design and treatment. My room is too square but otherwise, I spent $'sto make it look good, work well, and integrate all 11 speakers as best as possible.
B). Speakers - OK, Nautilus / 800 stuff could be considered overkill and you are paying for pedigree as well as looks. You could get an equal sounding speaker for less. Subwoofers for movies are critical. They should be musical and able to play volumes that match your fronts.
C). AVR / Pre with great proven EQ technology. If I were a stereo listening purist I would still want a great Pre; just a less gadgety one.
D). A good source. I recommend Oppo fo a lot of stuff. Also a great viewing device (Should you be a video watcher)
E). Good Amplification.
F). Control - be it Harmony, Some I-Pad app or one of the expensive solutions.
H). Nice cabling. OK, the back panel stuff I am not too worried about but nice heavy gage stuff to my speakers - I like. I also like cables that look good for no other reason than "They Look Good".

If possible, I like XLR connects. I can't tell musically but they simply look and attach better than the best RCA cables.

Now finally, all the talk of bi-wiring, bi-amping, exotic materials, costly connect solutions....... I think is pretty much hoooey. Ditto power conditioning and surge protection. I happen to own a signature series MP unit that has a pretty cool light show on the front. It works as a surge suppressor but really, I can't tell one little bit if it actually improves the sound of my system. The MP engineers are convinced it does though..... Did I mention the lights? Oooh purty!!!"

You really start getting into the subjective stuff at this site. Passions run high because it is a powerful and potentially expensive hobby. I guess my best advice to you is enjoy and do not look for definitive answers regarding subjective content. If you feel bi-amping is better for you; spend there. Personally, I would focus on room issues. I haven't seen your room and mine is not as good as I'd like it but it is really comfortable. It is fairly well treated (nothing exotic just lots of soft carpet, throws, pillows, and a great sectional (new for 2012). Also, there are people on this site that have ungodly expensive equipment placed on a hardwood floor, in a room with nothing but wallboard on all walls and an all white ceiling. They also have $5K projectors and no matter what EQ they use or window treatment for darkness; no way - no how will that room view or sound as good as mine. They have $100,000 in equipment though.

We enthusiasts will most definately drive you crazy if you are looking for agreement. So enjoy.

I just answered how it's a difficult to answer question. I even gave an example.

People will tell you that "A sounds better than B". I'm sure B&W will tell you that the HTM2 sounds better than the HTM4, and I'm not inclined to disagree. (though personally I'll almost never use the word "better" to describe sound without "to me" in there somewhere: I will use terms like "more accurate")

Sometimes they are coming from some sort of empirical basis (I can say that the Infinity P363 sounds better than its Klipsch counterpart because that's what consumer testing established); sometimes they are just offering their opinion. (sometimes it's considered "simply obvious")

I guess there just isn't a strong opinion among people who feel like responding to you regarding the worth of the HTM4 -> HTM2 upgrade. There could have been, but it turns out there isn't.

Go on the Paradigm thread and ask if the S2 sounds better than the Studio 100. You'll get a bunch of responses. Many of us have listened heavily to and personally considered both (note: yes, it does).

Hi all,

I own a pair of DM600 S3s, and im using them as main speakers for a stereo setup at the moment. However i want to upgrade to some floorstanding speakers as mains and send the 600s to the rear.

I've been looking at the DM603 S3s and the CM-4s. As a stereo setup, which are better overall out of the two and some obvious differences?

Also I find it hard finding information on older B&W equipment, is there a site or blog that can help me?

I know someone selling some CM-4s in good condition for £140 ($300), is this a good price?

Thanks alot!

I just became the proud owner of a pair of CM9s in piano black after much research here and auditioning! I'm currently running them from an older Denon AVR-1708, and I feel this doesn't have the juice to properly drive the speakers. I'm using the B&Ws for 50% music / 50% HT, driven from my Dual record player or HTPC via Optical for MP3/Movies. I prefer airy, slightly bright coloration. I'm planning my next upgrade for the AVR in the sub $1,300 range.

So far I've seen the Denon AVR-4311 and Pioneer SC-55 recommended in my price range. I'd like something with pre-outs for future upgrades.

Would the 4311 or 55 be a substantive jump from my AVR-1708, and which would drive them better? Are there other receivers I should be considering?

Thanks much for the help and discussion - helped make my decision to get the CM9s in the first place.

I can definitely hear differences between cables, both with my old and new setup, for example Wireworld Solstice 5 made my former setup (yamaha RX-V630+Dali 104) warm and listenable, whereas Monster sounded too bright and some hard rock numbers or Red Hot Chilli Peppers were irritating. Even my wife had to admit marked differences, although she does not care that much about quality. I described my experience with current setup above.
As for power, I do not see any problems, it is all a matter of sound colour to me, and preferences. I was discouraged from biwiring, and I did not do that. However in my case it is not simple biamping, but using different cables for high/middle and low frequences, therefore taking the best from each cable and reaching a desired effect.
Usually I do not listen loud when my family is at home, and I love the sound at low levels (-40-35 volume), double bass really resonates at this level, let alone at higher volumes, when my chest jumps. So power supply is absolutely sufficient.
When buying Yamaha i was advised to change the power cable to Audioquest. I was hesitant and asked for demonstration, and believe or not, there were differences, not huge, but I could definitely hear improvement in bass depth and fullness and drums (hi hat, cymbals), so I went for it and demoed to my wife at home, and surprisingly she heard differences too (not that it mattered to her though ).
Edited by Blondas - 12/28/12 at 7:39am

Update:

Can't say enough about my CM5 / CMC2 / Rel T5 combo. Yes you gotta pay to play, but I'm definitely happy i dished out a bunch more ( in my salary) to get some nice toys. Yes that little devil ony shoulder is telling me to return the CM5s, and go for the 9's, but for an extra $1,500, unless my 2nd job gets me $30,000+ this upcoming year, i got some other expenses i would rather push that extra towards.

Brings me up to a 5.1 question. What could i use for surrounds with my current set up?
Yes, I could do some CM1s, but for a helicopter flying overhead, even that seems like a lot of $$. What about a pair of M-1s? Think they would play nice with my current??

remember that surrounds play not only helicopters , unless you are no fan of BD concerts or 5.1 audio DVDs (I have a wonderful Opeth DVD). I have KEFs 6000 that play music quite nicely.

as far as the different center channels.... the htm4 is. really only good if you array using the 805's as you front left and right speakers. this is because it is basic an 805.

if you have 804, 803, 802 800.... go with the larger center. actually if i had the 802 or 800, i would get a third speaker that matched that series.

back to the htm2.... it sounds different than the htm4. it sounds FULLER this is because the drivers are larger and the htm2 has three drivers. and the tweeter compared to the htm4 that has one driver and a tweeter.

i have a/b compared these two speakers. the difference is something that even someone who did not care about sound would notice.....as my wife did notice the large difference.

so, i went with the larger center, very very happy i did.

i hope this clears up my original post to your question.

Bill

If you're hearing hum then I would suspect something is amiss with your setup. A ground loop or amp issue would be my guess. I have not heard the CM9 being "bass heavy" as a common complaint. I would guess that something in the tone control is set wrong (bass boost, sending LFE info to L/R + Sub, etc). As far as the plugs go, they do change the sound. Plugs in tightens the soundstage and midrange. Plugs out the bass is more boomy, but less defined. Soundstage opens up some and the midrange withdraws a bit. I run mine with the inner plug removed, but outer in (looks like a donut).
Edited by jeahrens - 12/28/12 at 8:39am

I've commented in detail about the CM1's as surrounds in this thread. In a nutshell they do not blend all that well with the rest of the lineup. Probably fine for movie listening for some. Personally I didn't find them acceptable for movies or multichannel music. The CM5's on the other hand sound wonderful paired with the rest of the CM lineup.

Thanks. I have not heard the HTM4 and will most likely not get a chance to hear them both so getting an opinion from someone that has done an A to B is very appreciated.

The B & W site has a section dedicated to older products. Link to Support section and at the bottom of the page, there is a link to this called 'Archived products'. You'll find owner's manuals and info sheets.

Did they also advise changing your entire house electrical wires and outlets to Audioquest?

You realize they used cheap wires inside the walls of your house and cheap wires coming from hundreds of miles from the street into your house?

But Audioquest power cords somehow purifies all that?

Funny. I think that quality wires of sufficient thickness, should do just fine.

Yes, certainly they did, and you now what, I changed, changed everything, even asked for a special coal for my power plant . And now I am sneered at by a very serious expert with so many posts that I should hide with my inexperienced ears. I am already sorry for my mistake. My ears told me to make this purchase, my ears (not yours, but I am no tech guy and I must certainly be wrong) after 30 minutes of listening to different stuff and switching cords. As i wrote, the improvement had not been huge, but in my opinion worth the money. If someone wants experimenting, feel encouraged, even though you can be laughed at by experts.
BTW cheap wires (solid copper) in the wall are definitely different from a normal, soft power cord. Try to bend them in the same way. I wonder why people make and buy different power distributors (e.g. furutech), is it also a waste of money?
I do appreciate posts saying about personal experience with different stuff and emphasising the importance of subjective preferences. Guys, demo different stuff and have fun, and believe your ears.

I've seen this topic pop up before. I went back to my AV store to specifically compare the 683's to the CM line. Here's what I found:

"You know I've seen that mentioned before in this thread. I originally auditioned the 600 series when I looked at speakers and recorded some differences between the lines. But since I kept seeing this being said I took a morning while the wife was getting her hair done last month and sat down the the 683's again at the same place I purchased the CM's. The 683's were notably lacking in the midrange performance compared to the CM9's. Not bad, but certainly not in the same league. The 683's imaged well, but their soundstage wasn't quite as wide and wasn't as detailed. The CM9's had more sparkle at the top. I would put the 683's between the CM1 and CM5 based on their midrange/high performance. The CM5's are a close match in the mid-high performance to the CM8/9 and better than the 683's in this regard. I found the CM1 slightly worse than the 683's all around. Now having said that the 683's are full range and the CM5's are not. So depending on your goals for a speaker the 683's may be a better fit. I'd even go so far as to say that comparing to the CM8, the 683's may get a nod simply because of their low end extension. However if you have a good sub, I would put the 683 squarely between the CM1/5."

This was done in the same room. Same material. Room corrected. BTW I too "Luv the Floyd" and used several of their songs in the test above :-)

Double-blinded studies have proven that people cannot tell the difference at all between wires and cords.

Psycho-acoustic, bias, power of suggestion will have you hearing and believing all sorts of things.

You've been had. Those salesmen did a good sale job.

I have Kimber Kable, but I KNOW they are for aesthetic only, not SQ.

Haha well i'm not so creative so i just went with the first name that came to mind

I don't use this system for anything but movie watching so that probably had a affect on how i feel about the speakers. Besides what i posted was a opinion, just the same as what you posted. For my part i thought speakers (683) sounded quite a bit better when i doubled the power going into them. They didn't lack anything acoustically but that was just to my ears.

Thanks jeahrens i also find the highs very muted. Sometimes dont know if the tweeter is even working :-)
Very confused!!!!

Likely a placement issue. Run room correction on your AVR or move them out from the wall
Bass is *causing* hum??? What's humming exactly?

The word "hum" is normally associated with a ground fault; when electrical equipment is hooked into more than one outlet or there's a grounding fault in the house wiring... but it's not associated with Bass in that case (unless the Bass is shaking the power outlet where the ground is loose)

The hole is a port. When you plug it, you have a sealed speaker. When you unplug it you have an ported speaker.

Porting give you more low-frequency extension (maybe important if you are not using a sub), but at the cost of overall volume.

Since you don't have a sub, you likely want to run un-plugged for now. When you get a sub: plug it.

they say the same about amplifiers, CD cources. So please tell me do you hear differences between all your components in your signature? Why do you keep changing equipment? For aesthetics?
Haven't you heard any difference?
In many cases some people could tell the difference, some couldn't. Look at a dancing floor, some people keep their rhythm, some do not. Some people can hear difference between Van Cliburn and Parker playing Czajkowski, or orchestra directed by Previn and von Karajan, and some not.
I will be happy to undergo a blind test with cables, perhaps I will not be able to say which is which (in terms of names), but I will select the one I like most when choosing between 2 or 3.
One more thing, when someone says in a test that one cables outperforms another it means that they like it more, it does not say it is objectively better.

Tweeters in CM9 are very soft, any deformity can alter their sound. Brighter speaker cables helped the tweeters and middles a lot, but according to some I am biased and have been tricked by salesman, so you should not believe me.

At the risk of answering for him (having read many of his posts) "speakers".

Other things that create sonic differences include "room" and "recording".

He is a self-described collector. But from what I've seen: most of his focus is speakers... which do sound different.

Likely everyone can hear the difference. What not everyone can do is recognize the difference from memory.

OTOH: The people that cannot tell them apart are not the people saying "Parker sounds blacker and more nuanced". Deaf people may not hear the difference between speakers; but we wouldn't test with deaf people would we?

Proper tests are done between two cables where the listener has all the time he wants to go back and forth between A and B. Then we switch to X and he identifies that as either A or B.

A fun perversion of the test is to use only one cable (usually accompanied by a visual that implies two very different cables are being used) and ask for sonic impressions. People will describe one as sounding better than the other even though there is not, in reality, another.

We saw this in an experiment where people listened to music, then were shown a big hefty cable then listened again. We also see it in experiments with wine. When told wine is expensive, it gets evaluated better.