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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 420

post #12571 of 13871
1/3/13 at 12:13pm
Just setup my new CM9's and CMC2 with my Denon 3313. I have no subwoofer. Using Audyssey sets the CM9's fronts to Large and CMC2 center to Small, is that correct? I figured they'd be similar enough to both be Large.
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post #12572 of 13871
1/3/13 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Just setup my new CM9's and CMC2 with my Denon 3313. I have no subwoofer. Using Audyssey sets the CM9's fronts to Large and CMC2 center to Small, is that correct? I figured they'd be similar enough to both be Large.

In an anechoic chamber or outdoors you'd probably be right. In your room, though, Audyssey goes by what it 'hears' which can be quite different from manufacturer spec. My older CDM 9NTs get crossed over at 110 to 120 Hertz by Audyssey in my living room, whereas my CDM-CNT gets crossed at 60. My Denon 3312 interprets that as all small.

That being said, with no sub setting at least your mains to Large is your only real option to get bass out of your system.
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post #12573 of 13871
1/3/13 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Just setup my new CM9's and CMC2 with my Denon 3313. I have no subwoofer. Using Audyssey sets the CM9's fronts to Large and CMC2 center to Small, is that correct? I figured they'd be similar enough to both be Large.

I am not an Audyssey expert but based on my limited knowledge of how stuff works, I think you received what I would consider the corect outcome: load the two front speakers as much as you can and cross over the center at a reasonable place.
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post #12574 of 13871
1/3/13 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

I am not an Audyssey expert but based on my limited knowledge of how stuff works, I think you received what I would consider the corect outcome: load the two front speakers as much as you can and cross over the center at a reasonable place.

When set to large: the speakers will receive data down to 20hz. Unless your speakers do better bass than your sub, they should always be set to small (just lower their crossover point)
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post #12575 of 13871
1/3/13 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

When set to large: the speakers will receive data down to 20hz. Unless your speakers do better bass than your sub, they should always be set to small (just lower their crossover point)

agreed.

but he doesn't have a sub. Now that I think about it, with no sub, the default is full range.
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post #12576 of 13871
1/3/13 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

When set to large: the speakers will receive data down to 20hz. Unless your speakers do better bass than your sub, they should always be set to small (just lower their crossover point)

However, he does not have a sub so set them to large.
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post #12577 of 13871
1/3/13 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

You're never the wrong guy to ask...
You use the 303 up front, right?

I don't think he believes in break in. Could be wrong, but I think that's where he was going with that.
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post #12578 of 13871
1/3/13 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Just setup my new CM9's and CMC2 with my Denon 3313. I have no subwoofer. Using Audyssey sets the CM9's fronts to Large and CMC2 center to Small, is that correct? I figured they'd be similar enough to both be Large.

Any channel that is set to LARGE will be getting the full-range signal for that channel--unless you have unwisely chosen an option to have "double bass," the bass frequencies for the LARGE channels won't be going to the subwoofer. This is not a good thing in many systems, as an Audyssey principal explains:

"Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer [i.e., setting a channel to SMALL] relieves the receiver amplifiers from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom. If you happen to be using Audyssey MultEQ for room correction, you will achieve much better low frequency performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels."

--from http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large

In other words, if you're using Audyssey, you hear it at its most effective when all of your channels are set to SMALL. I would also add that there are many situations where you'll get better, smoother bass response from careful placement of a sub and setting your channels to SMALL, which allows you to place your speakers for best imaging and smoothest response in the frequencies that don't go to the sub.
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post #12579 of 13871
1/3/13 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Just setup my new CM9's and CMC2 with my Denon 3313. I have no subwoofer. Using Audyssey sets the CM9's fronts to Large and CMC2 center to Small, is that correct? I figured they'd be similar enough to both be Large.

How is Audyssey setting speakers to SMALL when there is no sub?? Something is going wrong in the speaker configuration step early in the setup routine.
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post #12580 of 13871
1/3/13 at 2:14pm
+1 on Jerry's comments , but considering the guy doesn't have a SW in-between - then he must set both speakers to large, though.
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post #12581 of 13871
1/3/13 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post


You're never the wrong guy to ask...
You use the 303 up front, right?

But I do not acknowledge the phenomenon of burn-in as a significant factor.

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post #12582 of 13871
1/3/13 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

But I do not acknowledge the phenomenon of burn-in as a significant factor.

Ok thanks kal.
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post #12583 of 13871
1/3/13 at 3:53pm
So to recap my post

+1 for good audio advice
-5 for poor reading comprehension (since I failed to notice the lack of sub)

wink.gif
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post #12584 of 13871
1/3/13 at 5:21pm
Thanks guys, I'll set the center manually to Large and see how it works out.
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post #12585 of 13871
1/3/13 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Thanks guys, I'll set the center manually to Large and see how it works out.

I just checked my Onkyo and w/o a sub the only option for the front speakers is full range (large).

Try different configurations but I would definitely not have the center set to full range/large. Out of curiosity, what frequency did Audyssey pick for your CMC2?
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post #12586 of 13871
1/4/13 at 12:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

I just checked my Onkyo and w/o a sub the only option for the front speakers is full range (large).
Try different configurations but I would definitely not have the center set to full range/large. Out of curiosity, what frequency did Audyssey pick for your CMC2?

Not sure what you mean. Under Bass the "LPF for LPE" is set to 250 Hz, the highest setting. It's not just for the center though, it's a general setting.
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post #12587 of 13871
1/4/13 at 3:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Not sure what you mean. Under Bass the "LPF for LPE" is set to 250 Hz, the highest setting. It's not just for the center though, it's a general setting.

According to Chris at Audyssey, who is incredibly patient with the same questions being asked over and over again, there's no point in that setting even existing. The .1 LFE channel contains content up to 120 Hz, and the default setting of 120 is the only value that actually makes any sense for it. He says that AVR manufacturers just don't seem to understand this, and persist in making this something we can change. This is not like the crossover settings for your other speakers, where anything below the crossover value is redirected to the sub.
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post #12588 of 13871
1/4/13 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I don't think he believes in break in. Could be wrong, but I think that's where he was going with that.

Not everyone believes in the audible significance of speaker "break-ins" .....including The Audio Critic, Siegfried Linkwitz, Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, Audioholics, etc. And even less people believe in amps break-ins. So Kal is certainly not alone. biggrin.gif
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post #12589 of 13871
1/4/13 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Not sure what you mean. Under Bass the "LPF for LPE" is set to 250 Hz, the highest setting. It's not just for the center though, it's a general setting.

Your menu is obviously different than mine so I got curious and pulled yours. The menus are obviously different but the functionality is pretty much the same. On page 130 of your manual it does state: “When “Subwoofer” is set to “No”, “Front” is automatically set to “Large”.”

For the center speaker you get the following options:
“Center : Set the presence and size of the center speaker.
• Large : Use a large speaker that can adequately play back low frequencies.
• Small : Use a small speaker that has inadequate playback capacity for low frequencies.
• None : Select when a center speaker is not connected.
“Large” is not displayed when “Front” is set to “Small”.

Now, in my opinion, given that you are running a 3.0 set up, I would set the front speakers to “large” (well you don’t have a choice) and sent the center speaker to whatever Audyssey thinks it should be set. I would also go a step further and maybe bump the center speaker cross over frequency +10hrz or so to alleviate it from having to play the lower frequencies (the latter is more a personal choice and what sounds better to you).

As far as the “LFE” setting, I agree with the previous post based on the research I’ve done lately: leave that at 120 and never move it. In your case, w/o a subwoofer it is not going to make a difference, but once you get a subwoofer, it will. Your settings for the LFE are on page 131.

Your subwoofer options are slightly different than mine as it allows you additional flexibility that I do not have (but you probably don’t need):
Subwoofer Mode : Select low range signals to be reproduced by
subwoofer.
• LFE : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
• LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.

The reality is once you get a subwoofer, you will want to set your fronts to “small” which will automatically engage your subwoofer.
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post #12590 of 13871
1/4/13 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Not everyone believes in the audible significance of speaker "break-ins" .....including The Audio Critic, Siegfried Linkwitz, Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, Audioholics, etc. And even less people believe in amps break-ins. So Kal is certainly not alone. biggrin.gif

Count me in too
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post #12591 of 13871
1/4/13 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Count me in too

Yeah, me too. The break-in of the speaker wires is much more important!*













* - The preceding post was intended as sarcasm. If you did not recognize it as such please check the batteries in your sarcasm detector.
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post #12592 of 13871
1/4/13 at 8:54am
Funny. smile.gif
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post #12593 of 13871
1/4/13 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

According to Chris at Audyssey, who is incredibly patient with the same questions being asked over and over again, there's no point in that setting even existing. The .1 LFE channel contains content up to 120 Hz, and the default setting of 120 is the only value that actually makes any sense for it. He says that AVR manufacturers just don't seem to understand this, and persist in making this something we can change. This is not like the crossover settings for your other speakers, where anything below the crossover value is redirected to the sub.

OK, thanks, I will set it to 120.
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post #12594 of 13871
1/4/13 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

Your menu is obviously different than mine so I got curious and pulled yours. The menus are obviously different but the functionality is pretty much the same. On page 130 of your manual it does state: “When “Subwoofer” is set to “No”, “Front” is automatically set to “Large”.”
For the center speaker you get the following options:
“Center : Set the presence and size of the center speaker.
• Large : Use a large speaker that can adequately play back low frequencies.
• Small : Use a small speaker that has inadequate playback capacity for low frequencies.
• None : Select when a center speaker is not connected.
“Large” is not displayed when “Front” is set to “Small”.
Now, in my opinion, given that you are running a 3.0 set up, I would set the front speakers to “large” (well you don’t have a choice) and sent the center speaker to whatever Audyssey thinks it should be set. I would also go a step further and maybe bump the center speaker cross over frequency +10hrz or so to alleviate it from having to play the lower frequencies (the latter is more a personal choice and what sounds better to you).
As far as the “LFE” setting, I agree with the previous post based on the research I’ve done lately: leave that at 120 and never move it. In your case, w/o a subwoofer it is not going to make a difference, but once you get a subwoofer, it will. Your settings for the LFE are on page 131.
Your subwoofer options are slightly different than mine as it allows you additional flexibility that I do not have (but you probably don’t need):
Subwoofer Mode : Select low range signals to be reproduced by
subwoofer.
• LFE : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
• LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
The reality is once you get a subwoofer, you will want to set your fronts to “small” which will automatically engage your subwoofer.

Will do. May be awhile until I get a subwoofer. In a small apt and won't move to a house for 2-3 years. These CM9's already put out too much bass, I had to block the rear ports with the foam plugs! Maybe it's also because I can only set them about a foot from the wall.
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post #12595 of 13871
1/4/13 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Will do. May be awhile until I get a subwoofer. In a small apt and won't move to a house for 2-3 years. These CM9's already put out too much bass, I had to block the rear ports with the foam plugs! Maybe it's also because I can only set them about a foot from the wall.

In my opinion your speakers a peaking at some goofy frequency. I found that the first time I ran Audyssey, something didn’t work properly. My speakers started sounding way bright and harsh. I re-ran the set up and the harshness was gone. The "computer" inside your AVR is not perfect and can make mistakes.

Also, you can experiment a bit. Play some familiar content with no processing, just stereo direct mode or whatever – see how you like the sound with and w/o the plugs. Pick whichever one you like the best, then re-run Audyssey and play the same content with and w/o the processing. Note how the sound changes and what you like better (processed vs. not). Just for kicks then, I would change whatever your plug arrangement was that you liked before, and re-run Audyssey. Now you can see how Audyssey did with and w/o the plugs.

In my case, I found that my Audyssey actually pulls quite a bit of the bass out of the equation. Having been in "flat" rooms I know that the bass is more accurate with the Audyssey on than w/o, but I still find myself listening to stereo music in pure 2 channel w/o processing for more than half my content (my preference). Movies, Audyssey on all the way, no questions here.
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post #12596 of 13871
1/4/13 at 11:10am
I'm a total newbie with all of this stuff.. I'm a little perplexed with the plugs and Audyssey and my Rel sub.

I'm kinda thinking that Audyssey is "seeing" the sub as the .1

So... When running Audyssey the results for the bass will be more for when running the 3.1 setup. When running stereo mode, the .1 will disengage, and the frequencies will be determined by the REL which takes the frequencies off the main channels.

When running Audyssey, should I have plugs in or out? Will Audyssey give me different outcomes when run with the plugs in versus plugs out? If running Audyssey with plugs in, will it give me the "correct" sound when running in 3.1 and a different sound in stereo mode where I will just need to adjust the REL frequency manually on the rear?

JUST TELL THIS NOVICE WHAT TO DO !!!!! lol...
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post #12597 of 13871
1/4/13 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by raycie View Post

I'm a total newbie with all of this stuff.. I'm a little perplexed with the plugs and Audyssey and my Rel sub.
I'm kinda thinking that Audyssey is "seeing" the sub as the .1
So... When running Audyssey the results for the bass will be more for when running the 3.1 setup. When running stereo mode, the .1 will disengage, and the frequencies will be determined by the REL which takes the frequencies off the main channels.
When running Audyssey, should I have plugs in or out? Will Audyssey give me different outcomes when run with the plugs in versus plugs out? If running Audyssey with plugs in, will it give me the "correct" sound when running in 3.1 and a different sound in stereo mode where I will just need to adjust the REL frequency manually on the rear?
JUST TELL THIS NOVICE WHAT TO DO !!!!! lol...

Well if you wanted to do it correctly you would try a plug option, run Audyssey, and listen to it. Repeat this for each option (open, closed, inner plug insert removed). However that is pretty time consuming and getting a quiet house to run the calibration and test each configuration can be a challenge. So what I would do is pick a few songs you like, put your preamp/receiver in 2ch direct mode, and listen to the songs with each plug configuration. That will give you a good idea of how the sound is changed by the plugs. Once you have determined which way sounds best (may want to swap back and forth a few times), change the plugs in all speakers to the way you like it and run Audyssey. Again the best way would be to calibrate with each plug change, but it's hard to find the time to do that.
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post #12598 of 13871
1/4/13 at 9:12pm
When running audyssey with my Rel sub and the CM5s / CMC2 plugged, it gave my fronts large and the center small.

Surfing the net, I found this explanation
When using the Neutrik connector, the main speaker will run full range and the goal is to have the sub fill in below where the mains cannot reach. To me, that's actually the preferred method as it would be better to have the mains go as low as they can for the best bass integration."

Does this make sense for a Rel sub, using the Neurtrik connector, and running Audyssey? I guess I cold re-run audyssey without the Neurtrik connector and only the sub cord into the .1 and see what it gives me.
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post #12599 of 13871
1/4/13 at 9:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by raycie View Post

When running audyssey with my Rel sub and the CM5s / CMC2 plugged, it gave my fronts large and the center small.
Surfing the net, I found this explanation
When using the Neutrik connector, the main speaker will run full range and the goal is to have the sub fill in below where the mains cannot reach. To me, that's actually the preferred method as it would be better to have the mains go as low as they can for the best bass integration."
Does this make sense for a Rel sub, using the Neurtrik connector, and running Audyssey? I guess I cold re-run audyssey without the Neurtrik connector and only the sub cord into the .1 and see what it gives me.

Off Rel T5 review:
Because of the T5’s speaker-level input capability, REL recommends that you not set the processor’s front speaker setting to Small even if your main speakers are low-frequency limited. The potential advantage of this arrangement is twofold. First, only the LFE information reaches the subwoofer via the low-level RCA input, and you can independently adjust that level. Simultaneously, when you set the speaker type to Large, the same low-frequency information and bass character reaches both the main speakers and the subwoofer through the speaker-level input, and it too can be independently adjusted. REL believes this produces a more seamless and musical blend.

Guess Audyssey read the review before I did...
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post #12600 of 13871
1/4/13 at 9:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I believe the rule of thumb is to get the Center speaker that has the same size & material tweeter & midrange of your main front L/R speakers. For example, if your mains have 1" aluminum tweeter & 6.5" aluminum midrange, then try to get a Center speaker with 1" aluminum tweeter & 6.5" aluminum midrange as well.

Yes having three identical speakers in front makes a great difference, all pro-recording studios use three identical fronts and some time all same speakers all around but that can get expensive with 800Diamonds smile.gif
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