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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 425

post #12721 of 13875
1/29/13 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I've heard this stated both ways and I'm not positive but I believe if you have no sub LFE is routed to the mains.

Yes, which is why you need a sub even if running your speakers as large.
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post #12722 of 13875
1/29/13 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

I think my post got missed because it was at the bottom of the page frown.gif

How are the CM9 for two ch music? Looking for an upgrade to my 5.1 but looking primarily to improve two channel music performance.

I am also considering the Dynaudio focus 260, PSB imagine t2 and Thiels scs4 among mainstream brands. There is no place locally to hear them at the same place. I have not heard the 260s or the scs4's. I have heard the others.

I welcome any and all thoughts...also considering a few online brands.

I find them to be excellent 2ch performers. I have no experience with the brands your comparing them to. So I can't really comment. In their price range I was able to find anything I liked better locally. Their key strengths to me were their imaging and detail. They also have a strong and natural midrange.

P.S. Like the username. My first big car purchase after College was a '96 WS6 TA with a 6spd. Loved that car. Warts and all.
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post #12723 of 13875
1/29/13 at 12:56pm
My current setup is a 3.1 which consist of B&W 804s, CMC2 and a velodyne 12" sub (plan to upgrade CMC2 to a HTM3s and add a 2nd sub), then a Denon avr-3310ci with a NHT Power5 amp (200x5)

I'm looking to upgrade my AVR, but was wondering what would be the best around the $2-$3K range. I have seen Anthem MRX series, Integra 80.3, Denon avr-4520ci and etc.

Any thoughts or input?
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post #12724 of 13875
1/29/13 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex cheng View Post

Hi,

I am currently running a 3.1 (2 x 685s and HTM61) with bookshelf speakers in the family room. I am contemplating upgrading to floorstanders. I have read in a few reviews etc that a lot of the time the room has a lot to do with the SQ experience. The room is open plan (The lounge area is about 3M x 5M ) with shared dining and kitchen on one side, a tiled floor and glass French doors on the other side. Opposite the TV and speakers there is a 6 foot aquarium. So there is a lot of hard surfaces everywhere. I am contemplating the Bowers Wilkins CM8 or CM9s or something similar but am worried that it would not be worth it in this type of environment.

I would be interested in hearing about other people who have looked at similar setups or have similar environments. All advice or comment s welcome.

Thanks,
Alex

Get a pair of 683s for fronts and move 685s for surround duty. That will give you classic B&W setup.
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post #12725 of 13875
1/29/13 at 9:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I have no doubt for the vast majority of music (some electronic and pipe organs can dig below your freq response) The 802's alone are besting my 805's + Rythmik set up (whether it's $10K + McKintosh better is personally choice, how much better clearly has differing opinions here from experienced folks). However, if you are claiming the heavy hitting movie scenes like War of the Worlds Pod Emergence will sound even close to as good as my system, then that is not accurate. You're getting down to 34Hz +/- 3db (from spec prolly a little better in room), I'm down to 10Hz +/-3db (in room measured, spec says is 14Hz). The only music that matters on is not what I listen to, but this is my movie set up as well.

You did say 2.0 so I believe you are referring to music and I agree for the vast majority of music; I am of the opinion for Music the 802 will sound better. Those are my dream speakers. I think I'd cross them at 50-60Hz for movies and no sub for music, but would certainly experiment A LOT to find what I enjoy the most.

Another side point, I thought my older veoldyne sub with a 12in woofer and 15in radiator was doing a respectable job but when I upgraded to the modern, higherish end internet direct stuff, it wasn't even close either. Rythmik, Seaton, Funk, JTR, PSA, and what some folks are accomplishing with DIY is a huge step up from what my older velodyne was. Velo can't keep up in the performance to price ratio and even their $4k offering isn't as good as some $2k ID stuff. One fella recently sold 2 JTR captivators (OMG inducing LFE, I was picking pieces of his ceiling out of my hair after the demo) and built 4 dual opposed subs with the new SI 18" drivers, I can't fathom upgrading from dual captivators. He said it was another big jump up. I'd have to look up the total cost but I think it was $500 for each cabinet+ you need power. We are not talking about car audio boom boom boom here, these are tight, clean, accurate, and very musical offerings.

So now that I have you completely convinced, wanna trade?

Don't care for movie performance. I Watch maybe one movie a month and for that we use sennheiser wireless headphones smile.gif

Live in a small apartment with a 2yr old baby....

But for music...goddamm....its bliss....
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post #12726 of 13875
1/30/13 at 1:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Get a pair of 683s for fronts and move 685s for surround duty. That will give you classic B&W setup.

Would I be better off with some CM8s or CM9s though? or would the increase SQ be cancelled out by the room itself?
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post #12727 of 13875
1/30/13 at 4:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

For those that think a sub is a must to get good bass, I have to disagree.

The MC452 is rated at 450wpc at 8ohms, 900wpc at 4ohms and 1800wpc at 2ohms. Granted most people won't have such a beefy amp but if you have it, then it can rock the house! The 802 Diamonds can use all the power you can throw at it. I know someone who uses MC2kw amps (8000wpc at 2ohms :O )

My dealer also had MAC amps w/ the 800s. It as the watts meters. It barely goes above 5 watts even when I was playing loud. I was really hoping to see the power requirements go sky high, especially during the loud bass heavy music. Barely 5 watts! So why would anyone need even 450watts for music? biggrin.gif

That's one thing that most people don't get. So what if you have a 2KW amp if the speakers only use 1-2 watts? eek.gif

Oh, right, "transient peaks" that don't register or show up on the power watts meter? Peaks that last a microsecond that our ears can't even pick up because it's only a microsecond long? biggrin.gif

The bass on the 800D2 isn't even as deep, tight, and powerful as my $4K Phil3 speakers. I definitely need great subs with my 802D2.
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post #12728 of 13875
1/30/13 at 4:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

My dealer also had MAC amps w/ the 800s. It as the watts meters. It barely goes above 5 watts even when I was playing loud. I was really hoping to see the power requirements go sky high, especially during the loud bass heavy music. Barely 5 watts! So why would anyone need even 450watts for music? biggrin.gif

That's one thing that most people don't get. So what if you have a 2KW amp if the speakers only use 1-2 watts? eek.gif

Oh, right, "transient peaks" that don't register or show up on the power watts meter? Peaks that last a microsecond that our ears can't even pick up because it's only a microsecond long? biggrin.gif

The bass on the 800D2 isn't even as deep, tight, and powerful as my $4K Phil3 speakers. I definitely need great subs with my 802D2.

Not sure what level you listen to, but when I listed at what i consider rock the house levels, I see the meters go above the 45w mark all the time. considering the next level is 450 watt it means that a 400wpc amp is the minimum i could consider for the 802d2 if you want good bass. maybe you cross over your speakers at 40hz?

the guy who has the mc2kw amps have the speakers on a massive room with double ceiling (atleast 22ft high) and the room was atleast 200 sq ft. he probably didn't 'need' more than the mc1.2k but whats another 800 watt at that level?

i myself was all set on the mc302 but the 452 sounded better to me so i got them instead.

phil speakers along with salk etc. are some of the ugliest speakers i have ever seen. they would never be in my living room regardless of what sound they produced wink.gif

if i were to upgrade then i would want raidho or vivid speakers next. considering i spent the equivalent of a small BMW, not planning an upgrade for atleast 5 years. good thing is both b&w speakers and mcintosh amps hold value better than any other speaker or amps at the 2nd hand market.
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post #12729 of 13875
1/30/13 at 5:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

Not sure what level you listen to, but when I listed at what i consider rock the house levels, I see the meters go above the 45w mark all the time. considering the next level is 450 watt it means that a 400wpc amp is the minimum i could consider for the 802d2 if you want good bass. maybe you cross over your speakers at 40hz?

the guy who has the mc2kw amps have the speakers on a massive room with double ceiling (atleast 22ft high) and the room was atleast 200 sq ft. he probably didn't 'need' more than the mc1.2k but whats another 800 watt at that level?

i myself was all set on the mc302 but the 452 sounded better to me so i got them instead.

phil speakers along with salk etc. are some of the ugliest speakers i have ever seen. they would never be in my living room regardless of what sound they produced wink.gif

if i were to upgrade then i would want raidho or vivid speakers next. considering i spent the equivalent of a small BMW, not planning an upgrade for atleast 5 years. good thing is both b&w speakers and mcintosh amps hold value better than any other speaker or amps at the 2nd hand market.

Loud to me is a Peak 97dBC, but Average of about 85dBC on my digital SPL from 12ft distance.

A friend of mine says his MAC never goes above 1-2 watts and he has 802D. But he listens from 9ft distance. I suppose everyone listens to different volume and from different distance. If you listen from 15ft or 18ft, that would explain the increased power requirement even with the same perceived volume.

So the amp power requirement is dependent on the speakers, volume, and distance. Not everyone needs more than 100wpc, but some could use more. I just disagree when people make a statement like "All B&W or all 802D or all 800D need 400WPC". It's just silly. Obviously a lot of people who own 802 & 800 don't even use more than 5WPC.

B&W & MAC are beautiful and hold their value extremely well for sure.

Also agree that the B&W 802D2 look 100% better than any Salk or Phil aesthetically. But everyone sees differently. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 1/30/13 at 6:00am
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post #12730 of 13875
1/30/13 at 6:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwegs99 View Post

My current setup is a 3.1 which consist of B&W 804s, CMC2 and a velodyne 12" sub (plan to upgrade CMC2 to a HTM3s and add a 2nd sub), then a Denon avr-3310ci with a NHT Power5 amp (200x5)

I'm looking to upgrade my AVR, but was wondering what would be the best around the $2-$3K range. I have seen Anthem MRX series, Integra 80.3, Denon avr-4520ci and etc.

Any thoughts or input?

Are you upgrading for features or SQ?

Because I don't think changing your AVR is going to significantly improve SQ, although I know everyone thinks his AVR or pre-pro from Arcam, Anthem, MAC, ML, etc, somehow sounds better than everyone else. biggrin.gif

Feature wise, the Denon 4520 would be nice. I recommend it for sure.

At the same time, there's nothing wrong with wanting a certain brand for any reasons at all. biggrin.gif
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post #12731 of 13875
1/30/13 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Most of the real low end be in the LFE channel anyway. And this should go to a sub...you can't run the even the 800's without a sub for HT use....
I agree 100%. For movies, gotta have subs for 800/802.

But for music, not everyone has the same taste for that all powerful gut-punching-freight-train-deep-tight bass that you & I may love. biggrin.gif

Sure, most music (except organ music) never goes below 30Hz. But some of us still want that all powerful gut-punching-freight-train-deep-tight bass from 30Hz-80Hz. wink.gif

But if all I listen to are Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, & Vivaldi Piano & Violin Concertos, I might never need a subwoofer.

So whether people "need" a subwoofer with their 800/802s just depends on the music & their personal tastes.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 1/30/13 at 6:43am
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post #12732 of 13875
1/30/13 at 10:24am
Hi, I have just bought a pair of PM1's which I currently have driven by my old Denon PMA720 amp dating from early 1990's. This amp also drives a pair of B&W620 floor standers in a second room, and has the ability to switch between rooms as it has outlets and a selector for A and B to have either or both on at the same time. Right now I am wondering if an upgrade to a new amp would be advisable to get the best out of the PM1's, and if so which one to go for. I have been recommended the Roksan Caspian M2 among others, but this does not have the facility to switch A to B speakers. The questions are therefore would an upgrade be advisable and make a significant difference, and secondly which amp to go for to get the benefit but still work with two pairs of speakers? My budget is c. £1500. Thanks in advance.
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post #12733 of 13875
1/30/13 at 10:40am
As a postscript to my question above, has anyone heard any reports on the Denon 2020AE yet? Denon is not a name I often hear recommended for amplifiers, but the Denon PMA720amp I have has served well for many years, plus the 2020AE has some impressive electronics/processing functions as well as offering the ability to switch pairs of speakers A and B. Thanks again.smile.gif
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post #12734 of 13875
1/30/13 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Are you upgrading for features or SQ?

Because I don't think changing your AVR is going to significantly improve SQ, although I know everyone thinks his AVR or pre-pro from Arcam, Anthem, MAC, ML, etc, somehow sounds better than everyone else. biggrin.gif

Feature wise, the Denon 4520 would be nice. I recommend it for sure.

At the same time, there's nothing wrong with wanting a certain brand for any reasons at all. biggrin.gif

SQ, PQ and just some features ( i really dont use all the features in the 3310, just Audeyssy mainly)
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post #12735 of 13875
1/30/13 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Get a pair of 683s for fronts and move 685s for surround duty. That will give you classic B&W setup.

I agree. I added a pair of 683's and it has made a world of difference. Yes for the good.
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post #12736 of 13875
1/30/13 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwegs99 View Post

SQ, PQ and just some features ( i really dont use all the features in the 3310, just Audeyssy mainly)

The Denon 4520 will have Audyssey XT32, AirPlay, and a lot more features. So although I don't think the SQ will change if you bypass Audyssey, it may be different if you use Audyssey.

So sounds like a good reason to get the 4520. I doubt if there's a more advanced AVR for the same price.
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post #12737 of 13875
1/30/13 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmbyrne View Post

Right now I am wondering if an upgrade to a new amp would be advisable to get the best out of the PM1's.

I think not.

As I've said before, I've seen the 800/802Ds use no more than 1-2 watts (never reaching even 4.5 watts). Another member said he has actually seen 45watts from his 802D2.

What people think and say is one thing; what is actually measured is another.

It depends on how loud you listen (80dB Avg vs 90dB Avg) & how far you listen (9ft vs 18ft) & if you are using subs to handle all the bass (XO 80Hz).
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 1/30/13 at 1:05pm
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post #12738 of 13875
1/30/13 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

Not sure what level you listen to, but when I listed at what i consider rock the house levels, I see the meters go above the 45w mark all the time. considering the next level is 450 watt it means that a 400wpc amp is the minimum i could consider for the 802d2 if you want good bass. maybe you cross over your speakers at 40hz?

the guy who has the mc2kw amps have the speakers on a massive room with double ceiling (atleast 22ft high) and the room was atleast 200 sq ft. he probably didn't 'need' more than the mc1.2k but whats another 800 watt at that level?

i myself was all set on the mc302 but the 452 sounded better to me so i got them instead.

phil speakers along with salk etc. are some of the ugliest speakers i have ever seen. they would never be in my living room regardless of what sound they produced wink.gif

if i were to upgrade then i would want raidho or vivid speakers next. considering i spent the equivalent of a small BMW, not planning an upgrade for atleast 5 years. good thing is both b&w speakers and mcintosh amps hold value better than any other speaker or amps at the 2nd hand market.

Hi Akhter, how loud you could say that is 45w when your hear your 802D? over 95 db? how far from your speaker you are sitting?
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post #12739 of 13875
1/30/13 at 2:19pm
Re power consumption: I've got all my equipment running through a single Watt-meter, and power consumption doesn't quite work as I would expect. Obviously, lower frequencies require more power than higher ones, but there are certain sustained rumbles, in particular in moves, that see a 10-fold increase in power consumption (up to 400W--500W) at -20dBFS. Something similar is true, e.g., for parts of Return to Forever @ Montreux, Gilmour @ RAH, and other concert recordings.

I strongly suspect that capacitors and long'ish measuring windows mask many transient power draws of the same magnitude.

I'll leave it to the keen to predict what power consumption I would see at higher volumes ;-)
Edited by ReneV - 1/30/13 at 2:33pm
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post #12740 of 13875
1/30/13 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by leo2498 View Post

Hi Akhter, how loud you could say that is 45w when your hear your 802D? over 95 db? how far from your speaker you are sitting?

I sit about 9ft away and my room is about 15ft by 30ft.

I haven't measured the spl but its not that loud. In my linn preamp the volume is at 70and the mc452 sits around the 45w mark during kick drums.

I would go by b&ws ratings and say 50wpc is an absolute min for small rooms for this speaker and if you want to hear very at very loud in large rooms 10ft by 30ft or more then 500 is more like the wattage you want for 2.0 music. For movies using a sub and using receiver xover prolly 200wpc is enough.

It is ridiculous to suggest 1-2 watts is enough for these speakers because a friend hasn't seen his meters go above it lol.
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post #12741 of 13875
1/30/13 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by leo2498 View Post

Hi Akhter, how loud you could say that is 45w when your hear your 802D? over 95 db? how far from your speaker you are sitting?

I sit about 9ft away and my room is about 15ft by 30ft.

I haven't measured the spl but its not that loud. In my linn preamp the volume is at 70and the mc452 sits around the 45w mark during kick drums.

I would go by b&ws ratings and say 50wpc is an absolute min for small rooms for this speaker and if you want to hear very at very loud in large rooms 10ft by 30ft or more then 500 is more like the wattage you want for 2.0 music. For movies using a sub and using receiver xover prolly 200wpc is enough.

It is ridiculous to suggest 1-2 watts is enough for these speakers because a friend hasn't seen his meters go above it lol.
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post #12742 of 13875
1/30/13 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex cheng View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Get a pair of 683s for fronts and move 685s for surround duty. That will give you classic B&W setup.

Would I be better off with some CM8s or CM9s though? or would the increase SQ be cancelled out by the room itself?

I didn't find CM9 any better in sound quality than 683. CM8 doesn't go down deep enough for me for floor standing speaker.
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post #12743 of 13875
1/30/13 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post


It is ridiculous to suggest 1-2 watts is enough for these speakers because a friend hasn't seen his meters go above it lol.

No one is recommending a 1-2 wpc amp. I don't see anyone recommending anything less than 100wpc. The fact remains I've never seen the power meter go above 4.5watts even during loud 95dB volume. Neither has my friend.

I am curious to know what others have seen on their power meters.

I have power amp with PEAK power meters. I saw range between 30-50W for acoustic jazz and classical to 200W for rock and dance music. Speakers are 802D in 12x13 room. Amplifier is rated 260W/8 and 450W/4. My new amplifier is without power meter, but with clipping detector, didn't reach clipping point yet. It is rated 300W/8 and 500W/4.
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post #12744 of 13875
1/30/13 at 6:30pm
There is some other issue. Current? I don't know. I know that my 801S2's did not sound right off my AVR and my Yammy pro amp fixed that. Indeed, that amp has run well all but one speaker... my N801s. I think the 2ohm impedance dips may be involved there.

I'm not biased towards using amps. I actually run my HT (bedroom) and computer rig off AVRs, and did run my family room off an AVR until the 801S2's (since then: since I have the amp, I use the amp)
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post #12745 of 13875
1/30/13 at 8:20pm
Got just about everything in today!

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post #12746 of 13875
1/31/13 at 3:51am
Mac mc 452 in action smile.gife9y7edas.jpg
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post #12747 of 13875
1/31/13 at 4:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

Mac mc 452 in action smile.gife9y7edas.jpg
A picture is worth a million words.

Thank you. That looks very cool. Always good to see your beautiful 802D2 + MAC450. biggrin.gif

You are at 9ft. So if you were listening at 12ft, it could be 90watts. At 15ft, it would be 180watts. At 18ft (bigger rooms) it would be 360watts or more.

So I stand corrected. biggrin.gif

You wont see me debate about needing power now. biggrin.gif
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post #12748 of 13875
1/31/13 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The Denon 4520 will have Audyssey XT32, AirPlay, and a lot more features. So although I don't think the SQ will change if you bypass Audyssey, it may be different if you use Audyssey.

So sounds like a good reason to get the 4520. I doubt if there's a more advanced AVR for the same price.

yeah out of all the features, Audyssey would be really the only thing i would use. My setup is 95/5 in favor of Home Theater, no real 2 channel/music use.

the reason for asking this type of question, do i really need to spend $6K+ on a McIntosh to see the different? Is there a difference between top of the line Denon, Integra, Anthem vs a McIntosh for PQ/SQ?
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post #12749 of 13875
1/31/13 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwegs99 View Post

yeah out of all the features, Audyssey would be really the only thing i would use. My setup is 95/5 in favor of Home Theater, no real 2 channel/music use.

the reason for asking this type of question, do i really need to spend $6K+ on a McIntosh to see the different? Is there a difference between top of the line Denon, Integra, Anthem vs a McIntosh for PQ/SQ?
That would depend on the specific load it's being given. McIntosh is one of the few brands I know that is rated for 2ohm operation (others include Krell, and select Crown, Peavy, and Parasound)and the voltage available to such a McIntosh is higher than I've experienced in the other brands you've mentioned.

Honestly: A better competitor might be a Crown XTi
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post #12750 of 13875
1/31/13 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwegs99 View Post

yeah out of all the features, Audyssey would be really the only thing i would use. My setup is 95/5 in favor of Home Theater, no real 2 channel/music use.

the reason for asking this type of question, do i really need to spend $6K+ on a McIntosh to see the different? Is there a difference between top of the line Denon, Integra, Anthem vs a McIntosh for PQ/SQ?

So we are not comparing Pure Direct vs Pure Direct.

We are comparing RC vs RC sound quality.

With the exception of the Harman ARCOS (Adaptive Room Correction and Optimization System), I don't think anything beats the Audyssey XT32 PRO, which is available on $5500 Denon AVR-5308 and the $ $7500 Denon AVP-A1HD.

But the 4520's Audyssey XT32 should be at least as good as anything from Integra, Anthem, & MAC.
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