B&W Owner's Thread - Page 433

I am surprised no one is worried about hearing loss at such volumes?
Even though conversation or dialogue is probably about 80 db or so at these volumes, explosions will be more than 110 db... Fierce stuff..

That is why I keep it at reasonable volume, my wife is the great attenuator :))

And in real world use, is the XPA 5 really more powerful than the XPA 3? Ymmv.. If only three channels are needed, you save money on the price and subsequent electric bills with the XPA 3 vs 5...

I must add when I had an Xpa 5 on my 802d and htm2d it would clip quite often. I was not a fan of that amp at all. I moved it on to a friend who has much smaller speakers and he has no problems.

I have now added the htm1d to the line up and use www.abamps.net 3x500w se for fronts and 4x 200w se for rears and listen at just below reference and sometime at reference and have never even made my amps warm let alone clip or even close to heat the emotiva would put out when being worked hard.

I tried UPA-1s which had the same amp sections as the XPA-3&5 and found I preferred the Onkyo TX-NR1008 for 2 channel. For HT the UPA-1s were a definite plus. I have also noted folks who have changed from the XPA-3 to the 5 and noted improvements, most recently in the Aperion thread for example. Rarely will you demand a lot from all five channels so the XPA-5 has more in reserve. I have a Shearborn PA 5-200 which is sonically similar to the XPA-5 for my center, surrounds and heights and seems to work well for that. I don't have first hand experience on the XPA-3 but that is my feeling based on my experience and what I have read.

thats why I feel room volume must be playing a role. Seriously for most movies -15 is a minimum to really enjoy and to have a somewhat of a movie theater experience. Prior to my HT setup (3 weeks old now) the CM9s were upstairs in a 16X18 room and were powered by Rotel 1582. Music seemed much louder than in the new setup with the MCA 30 in the 40X16 room they are in now even though the LP is 12 away (probably a little closer than in the previous music only setup). All the points I am making about loudness are in reference to the LCR and surrounds. The subM F2 is plenty loud even at volumes less than -15.

What is the device called that measures db, and where do I get one?

Yes the larger the volume and the father you sit the higher the volume, 

 

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distance.htm

 

 

have fun

SPL meter. I use a radio shack digital meter.

Note you're smart phone's mic is pretty crappy in comparison, but there are apps to make your phone do it. Play the test tone first to see if it is ballpark 85db. Also do some volume up and down sanity checks to make sure it is behaving reasonable.

Oh so now you ask how audyssey gets by without a separate meter from their microphone? Well the mics calibration file in your AVR contains a sensitivity figure so it knows the relative SPL value. So your AVR can figure SPL with that mic. The UMIK-1 mics have a sensitivity figure in the cal file and REW has support for it so you don't need a separate SPL meter in that case. The Dayton UMM-6 also has a sensitivity value but REW doesn't support it yet. However John is working on that now and some AVS'rs are helping him gather the data to support that so good on all them.

Regardless of all those options its pretty convenient to have a separate stand alone meter (20-30 bux) even to just double check stuff for sanity sake. Also note that your AVR plays test tones without audyssey and audssey sets levels with it engaged so you could see a db or two fluctuation potentially.

too much info?

Well, the usual average volume is only about 80dB, which is not that high. Peak levels of 105/115 dB (explosions) occurs at short durations and usually LOW IN FREQUENCY (bass).

The key to hearing loss is extended time of exposure @ high volumes, not short duration peaks.

+1

 

Interesting I have a CA-5200 from Classe and it never clipped with my 802D!  I guess one should stay away from Emotiva then?

ill pick up an SPL meter from radio shack later this week...i wonder if amazon has one....

I have anthem so I use ARC, but i guess it works the same way. Thanks for the info, can never get too much info from you experts

on a separate note do you have experiences comparing the CM9 vs the comparably priced CT series. For a 99% movie setup I wonder if I should purchase those and take my CM9s back upstairs for music? O r even better yet... your votes on the following two options

1) HT - CM9, CMC2, DS3 surrounds and for Music upstairs 804D vs
2) HT - CT8.2 for LCR and Cm9s back upstairs for music

wse, gorgeous system made up of speakers I covet. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, this is just the math at play in your system.

You're speakers sensitivity is 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
which is like 87 db 1 watt 1 meter
converts to 87 db 1 watt 3.3 feet
lose 6db when doubling distance 81 db 1 watt 6.6 feet
lose 6db when doubling distance again 75 db 1 watt 13.2 feet
you listen between -25 and -30
105db reference level -25 = 80 db
so double watts to increase 3db: 78 db 2 watt 13.2 feet
Lets double again: 81db 4watts 13.2 feet

You sit 10 feet away and this is anechoic, you will get room gain. 4 watts is overkill for you, How much in amplifiers do you have running there?

EDIT: also note those are the PEAK values, you are using less than 1 watt more often then not.
Edited by dstew100 - 3/3/13 at 5:15pm

They are all over the world wide web. Radio Shack is quasi hit or miss whether they still have them in stock or not. Just google around and hit a couple rat shacks if they are convenient.

I think you should just get a Dayton UMM-6 though. much more capability there.

Thank you, I appreciate your feedback

 

So what if I understand you correctly, is that I could probably trade in my amps for smaller ones and be perfectly happy?

 

What happens when I ope the room is that I increase the volume to -15 so I can hear it throughout the downstairs.  I guess I would be probably perfectly satisfied with 100W amps for all my needs :)

 

B&W suggests Recommended amplifier power 50W - 1000W into 8Ω on un-clipped program!

 

I have Classé CA-M600 for the front (http://www.classeaudio.com/delta/delta-cam600.htm) Output power: 600W rms into 8Ω (27.8 dBW) 1200W rms into 4Ω (27.8 dBW)

 

and Classé CA-5200 (http://www.classeaudio.com/discontinued/specs/ca5200.htm)

You certainly have the power in reserve if you decide to call upon it. But yeah, your system would sound just as steller at your current listening levels with less power. I was also trying to point out you would not clip the Emo's but then we're back on if amp's sound different so lets not go there. I am happy to respectfully agree to differences of opinions on that.

Fabulous set up, well played.

Thank you greatly appreciate, so if I want to trade those amps so I can use the Cash for a new projector, how much power should I get at a minimum!

 

Also, what do you think of pure Class A amps like Pass Labs I like the look of their amps :)

I think it really depends on the room. I’ve personally seen a pair of 800D2 clip a pair of CA-M600 in the dealer’s demo room which for all intensive purposes is dead, huge and sitting on concrete. The clipping occurred at around 96 db.
In my house which is hardwood floors with almost no sound deadening anywhere, I can do 96 db all day long with my 200W amps and I’ve had them as high as 105 continuously with no perceived issues.
I guess all I am saying is, theoretical calculations are great, but sometimes there are a lot of real world variations that change things substantially.

I thought I heard a rumor that more speakers will be soon released in the CM line featuring the "Tweeter on top" design. Has anyone heard/seen the same?

Well, careful who you ask cause they might just answer. I wouldn't hesitate to throw 4x crown xti 1002's at it for 2k and have power overkill again with a brand new fabulous projector. Of course they look hideous and the fans are noisy. Nothing a closet rack and a fan mod can't take care of though.

However, let me attempt to put out some other options you may actually consider. First off if you're trying to pull some funds out of amps for a projector it doesn't appear that pass labs is going to be the way to go on that so I'm not going there (and couldn't do so in good concious anyway). However you know your power req's now so if your itching to try one of those 30-60 watt pure class A designs that's your dollar. I do not believe you will actually hear a difference, but if you believe you hear a difference that's actually just as good from your perspective.

I'll assume you are unwilling to give up fully balanced which would be a good decision given a system of your calibre. Also I'll assume you want some headroom. For you to get to -10 from reference, given the math I posted before you will need 128watts, that's conservative and your situation is really better then that. 100-200 solid watts is plenty for your listening habbits.

Emotiva multi channel amps are not fully balanced, only their two bigger mono-blocks are so that's not going to be cost effective. 7x XPA-1s will have you up around 6k pretty quick. We can do better then that.

Hmmm Outlaw has fully balanced 7 channel amps. $2150 for 200w x 7 or $3500 for 300w x 7. That 7700 is my front runner now. None of the pro amp headache for $150, money well spent. $1350 for 1.5db? nope.
what else?
ATI makes a great amp that the huge price tag names love re-branding and claiming to be their own. Fully balanced, high quality, how's the price? Appears the ATI 2007 or 3007 is what you would want. ATI 2007 appears to be around 3k, that looks pretty good, and it even has less letters than outlaw so that might be worth $850.

Here's some more fully balanced options
b&k ref 200.7 $1600 + a pre-amp
b&k ref 200.7 $2k
NAD 7x140 $1300
$3700 ati 3007 300x7 expensive but nice
Arcam 150x7 $3k

So after a fairly broad look I'm thinking
NAD 7x140 at $1300
Outlaw 7700 7x200 at $2150
ATI 2007 7x200 at $3k

Though the b&k appears worth a little more attention

Those calculations I posted are the anechoic worst case. In room is better then that.

why aren't more of us using the crowns?

Ugly and just don't have that high-end status.

Andrew Robinson used the Crown XLS2000 w/ his 800D. These XLS amps run super cool and super quiet. I've tried them myself.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 3/4/13 at 10:12am

So if I don't care about status, and the amps are going in a cabinet, should be looking at them? Why is this $500 and the classe is $5000? Serious question.

More expensive parts and chassis, better measurements (SNR, Crosstalk, etc). It's highly equivocal that there is a difference in SQ. I don't think there is a difference in SQ. But I won't argue with folks who believe there is a difference. It is their money.

I know people (like Andrew Robinson & others) who own B&W 800D and Revel Salon2, etc, who use Crown XLS amps (like XLS2500).

It is unequivocal that these class D Crown XLS amps operate so much cooler than any class A or AB amps. They also weigh about 10lbs, instead of 100lbs+.

BTW, Crown is owned by Harman and the 8Ch Lexicon amp is a dressed-up Crown amp.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no SQ disadvantages from these Crown XLS amps vs any other amps. But some do believe there is a difference in SQ.

To me they are just ugly. Dress them up in Mark Levinson or Lexicon attire and relabel them to the later, and I would be using them for my Revel Salon2, B&W 802D2, and KEF Reference 201/2.

If you need power, the XLS 2500 is 440WPC into 8 ohms 775WPC into 4 ohms.

Andrew Robinson went back to Parasound to my knowledge. It seems to me class D loses its shine over time.

I don't know about that. But he sold his B&W speakers.

Ok I have a question, I am thinking to potentially sell my four 802D1 to upgrade to 802D2 for surround R/L and get a pair of 805D?

 

What do you think should I, is it worth it?

+1 on high end status. Same for those with $1000 cables.